Topic: Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar - page 2. (Read 701 times)

Has this ever happened before? I'd assume that you'd have to accidentally come into contact with some shady mafia group over e.g. Bisq for that to even be a remote possibility.


But then how are you going to carry all that cash around? Let's assume you withdraw even $50,000. It will have to be declared when you leave the country.

He does not want to use an exchange, he does not also want it to go through banks because of tax cuts and this limits his options. But how can someone exchange bitcoin without an exchange or banks. Eventhough he wants to go through a P2P and avoid exchanges, he will also need the bank to receive fiat equivalent of his transaction. I do not know if there are people who carry cash around and look for those physically selling their bitcoin. Bitcoin is more of online and internet thing.

Ops physical Bitcoin exchange is possible and if you look closely you will find such an exchange that offers such service and does not require verification to process the transaction as opposed to a Bitcoin ATM.

But the risk rate is high since you mentioned, you have a large number of bitcoins that you have to swap into your local currency.

Just a note of caution,  because physical transactions have not been encouraging due to the risk of losing your funds to criminals since you can easily be robbed with cash.

I confirm this.


I also second that. In the picture below is a declaration sent to Banca Transilvania by a client which was questioned how he intends to use his own money. The declaration is hilarious, yet true:

"I [...], client of Banca Transilvania, am issuing this declaration while being forced by the bank, based on some internal regulations which are NOT opposed to me, for justifying to the bank what I'm doing with my own money.

Given the fact that it's summer and it's period of vacations, being also in a period just after the lock down, I wish very much to have fun, therefore I will visit Holland (n.b LoyceV may smile here ), where prostitution is LEGAL, for the purpose of fu*#ing some prostitutes. Most likely, before reaching Holland, I'll do the same thing in Austria and Germany.

Then, also in Holland, since drugs are LEGAL, I wish I'll smoke some marijuana, hash and I'd also like to try some shrooms.
I heard that in Holland there are some tasty marijuana cakes, which I suggest you to try as well, as maybe you'll wake up and stop coercing people to give cretin declarations based on idiotic procedures, for justifying you what they do with their own money.

Of course, since I'll have so much money, if I'll run out of toilet paper then maybe I'll be fancy and I'll wipe my ass with a few hundred euros, like rich guys do.

The rest of the money if for lending to my friends and for making useless shopping, which I'll regret later."


                    Source: Facebook

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Welcome!


Yes, I understood that. The discussion is only in perspective.


No worry, anytime If you want (and feel safer this way), if you'll ever come here I may assist you when you'll do the deal. You may not know Razvan and certainly not the respective exchange I mentioned but at least you know me from the forum. I am willing to help you.

Thank you for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. Going abroad is something I was already considering in an attempt to combine leisure/travel with "business" when the time is right. Unfortunately, I definitely don't have $50,000 worth of Bitcoin, though I wish I did. I mentioned that I'm not going to sell for anything less than that. Although I'd still have a decent amount of money by then, I want to have a general idea of my options. The two last options sound like a decent idea because the ATMs have relatively high fees.

I'll definitely contact you if I am to proceed with any of the mentioned proposals. Thanks again.


Edit: Just read your story regarding your trip from Greece to Bucharest; hilarious that they thought you look suspicious just by your flight selection.

Not necessarily. We have a history here of money exchangers that work only with paper money, even in 2023. Getting paper in money can be more reassuring than getting it in bank (with possible questions asked) and the exchanger knows this.
Actually the fact one gets paper money in hand can make this kind of exchange somewhat safer than on a DEX because the bank may ask about the money from various (maybe very odd) sources your money comes from and you may have no good answers.

Of course, this doesn't mean your use case is impossible. Just it's not the only use case.

Yes, I understood that.


Well, in the theoretic case when OP has BTC worth of 50.000 euros, he could also make multiple visits to Bucharest and sell for values of 9999 euros, thus he would not be coerced to declare the money. Even in this situation (let's suppose he makes 5 visits for five 10.000 9999 euros transfers), he will still save way much more money than paying a 24% tax. Five round-trips would cost 1000 euros, which represent 2% from the supposed 50.000 total amount, while the 24% tax is 12.000 euros. Still speaking in percentages, his saving would be 1200% greater than by paying the 24% tax.


I added here a hyperlink of the story you mentioned, for everybody to understand. Excepting that, the idea of a vacation is not bad OP would certainly have many places to visit here, including Dracula's castle

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The person I recommended lives from doing this since 2012 or so. He simply acts like an exchange, meaning that he buys from you and sells to me, this is how he manages to buy / sell any kind of amounts. During a decade since he is doing this business he made a big clientele, thus he always has someone in the queue for meeting him to sell him crypto or to buy from him crypto.

So he acts like an exchange, except that deals with him are anonymous and the fees he applies are much more friendly than those used by a cash-in / cash-out ATM.

I may be wrong, but so far I did not suspect anything shady at him during the times I made dealings with him.

I realized something else: why would anyone buy €50k in Bitcoin with cash? Exchanges are less risky, and leave a paper trail to explain your spending to taxes. Unless said person doesn't want a paper trail, for instance because it's criminal money. By that logic, it's more likely you'll be dealing with criminals than with honest people, which significantly increases the risk of a cash transaction.

I think that his point was that he's not selling at under 50k/BTC, so it's about the price, not the amount he's selling.
Even more, leaving with 50k EUR may not be great (we're not in the Shengen yet, remember?) and also depositing such amount to a bank (even more, one that's foreign for him) may rise questions.
I will add that (I remember your story on Greek airports!) if he returns too quick from Bucharest may also rise some eyebrows

All in all, the suggestions are not bad, but I'd do that only together with an actual vacation or at least city break. This way the price of the plane will actually worth it even for much lower amount of bitcoins sold.

I'd also like to share an opinion on this matter, although it will be, probably, most unusual OP heard so far.

I understand that the percentage of 24% is ridiculous. I also understand there are no KYC-less ATMs in Greece. Working with banks is also totally not recommendable as you share almost same risks as with centralized crypto exchanges (not all risks the lattest present but still most of them).

I see some users suggested decentralized exchanges or peer-to-peer transfers.

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In case you are really interested, in Bucharest you will find three KYC-less methods for changing BTC with fiat.

.1 The KYC-less ATMs of BitcoinRomania: these can be found thorough entire country but best prices are at the ones from their headquarter, which is in Bucharest downtown. You can cash out amounts up to 1000 euros without any kind of KYC and amounts between 1000-3000 euros by offering a phone number. I asked them why they request the phone number and they said that in case you lose the receipt given by the ATM, which contains the transaction internal code, at least you have a text message from them containing that code, thus if you call them you can easily receive assistance. You can perform multiple withdrawals with amounts between 1000-3000 euros or, alternatively, some more withdrawals with amounts of 0-1000 euros, in case you don't want to use a phone number. In any case, you can buy a KYC-less phone sim card at the price of 2 euros and use it with an old phone. ATMs have prices with ~10-11% lower than BTC value on CoinMarketCap. You can also show yourself in front of these ATMs while wearing a hoodie, sunglasses and face mask -- their internal software won't block the transaction although the camera is not detecting your face.

2. In Bucharest you can find a very serious guy, named Razvan_BTC. He is offering crypto-fiat exchanges of any amounts, at a very small fee (about 3.5-4.5%). Razvan is very correct and I am personally granting for him. I made multiple deals with him and each time he was very correct. I know that it looks risky but if my word presents any sort of trustworthiness then you can talk to him at any time. He performs his activities also in Bucharest downtown.

3. Third option is a regular money exchange, which I found by pure chance. It is located near BitcoinRomania headquarter and, excepting money, it also operates with gold, silver, various jewelry etc. The owner (I think he was the owner) told me that at his echange you can also change crypto with fiat, for a very good fee (about 5% if I remember well). Obviously, also KYC-less. However, I have not tried yet their services.

I used services of BitcoinRomania in the past and I vouch for them, in case you feel safer inside the precincts of an actual company. Then I switched to Razvan_BTC's services and the financial advantage is huge.

A round-trip flight from Athens to Bucharest is only 203 euros and in 1.5h you are here.

Since you said you don't want to sell under 50.000 euros, the 203 euros for plane tickets represent 0.4% of the 50.000 euros transaction. I guess it's a good deal compared with the 24% you mentioned in OP, isn't it? 

In case you will ever think about this or actually take the decision, you can always contact me or contact Razvan and let him know that I introduced him to you. As a plus, you'll also have the chance to see Bucharest downtown, where the old city is also located, and which is a very nice area to visit!

There are much better options, like the one in Germany where you have no tax if you can prove you held your coins for more than a year.
Or you can go to Poland, they have 17% income tax up to 25 000 EUR and 32% on whatever you earn above that.

56% income tax is probably one of the highest income tax rates in Europe. Usually found only in the cold North like Finland and Denmark. Their tax rates and food prices can make you consider suicide.

Well, the first and most important thing is to buy and accumulate as much bitcoin as you can and keep it secure until it reaches some value on which you are willing to sell and gain profits. The thing is that you need to keep your bitcoin save and not lose them.

When you need to convert it into fiat currency, there will be many options. If you have millions of dollars worth of bitcoins, you can convert few through P2P and banks and move to a country like Dubai or any crypto friendly nation and cash out all without any issue of complication of legalization / taxation.

The total. Here, the income tax is around 37-56%, and the "property tax" is around 2% each year.

I should move The weather is much better too

To what tax are you referring to? Property tax or realized gain? 24% is nowhere close to little.

I live in Greece, and there is no KYC-free Bitcoin ATM. You'll raise suspicion if the money aren't taxed are lots, and even if you don't they'll tax you a nice 8% as commission. 

If you declare it now, is there a penalty for not declaring it earlier?

Thank you. You're correct; I'm looking to sell bitcoin, not withdraw. Wrong phrasing. It's actually 15% capital gains tax, unless I declare it as income since the amount was earned from scratch, in which case it's 24%, if I'm not mistaken. But honestly, you're right; I haven't thought about what I'd be doing with practically a bag of cash. Not only is it inconvenient but also dangerous, and there's also a chance to get away with it, just like you said. I could have declared them, but I didn't. Some were earned in the past, quite a few years ago, through various sources, while the rest are from signature campaigns in the past two years.
Yeah, those debit cards should be fine for smaller amounts, purchases and occasional withdrawals.Thank you for your reply. Yes, regulations may be completely different in a year or two, but as LoyceV already mentioned, it may be best to withdraw through a bank since having a decent amount in cash isn't quite convenient either.

As far as the KYC, I would say go ahead and accept that if you are cashing out to Fiat.
* Traveling with large sums of fiat, is just asking for trouble.*
https://www.qcnews.com/news/investigations/government-seizes-billions-in-cash-from-air-travelers-without-ever-filing-a-criminal-charge/

You mentioned in a later post , you are in Greece.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/economy/1200283/no-legal-framework-for-crypto/
* According to the above their is no VAT for crypto sales.*

If you are waiting for a big win, I would suggest when the time is getting close to selling , contact a Tax Attorney for your Country 1st.
That way you know exactly what you are doing and what is the extent and timeline for any Tax implications.
* if you wait 5 years, the crypto tax laws might be totally different than now , so any current advice could be completely wrong in 2 or 3 years for you.  *

To use these cards, you have to do KYC, and if you do that, you are always exposed to the risk that your data will be shared with your tax institutions - because they can always legally request such data, and if I remember correctly, the IRS requested and received such data from Coinbase in the past. Even if you use so-called "anonymous cards" and pay for something online or in physical stores, you can be located via IP address or you will be recorded by one of the surveillance cameras that are everywhere.

Of course, in the case of small amounts, there is no need to worry too much, because the resources of government agencies are still focused on some more serious tax violations.

You have no choice but to use P2P or a bitcoin ATM since this is more likely to have lower fees than if you chose the bank. Though P2P is very difficult as you need to find the right person on it and it is very risky as you are transacting huge amounts of money, either you get scammed or robbed. Bitcoin ATMs are good, but i think there is a limit on them and there are fees, but I think they are way less than the banks. But again, you are not planning to sell it right now? It is still in the future, so it is more likely you will have other choices in the future; just don't think of it just yet.

Your title is wrong: you're not looking to withdraw Bitcoin, you're looking to sell it.

Only 24% tax? I wish I could pay that little!

In that case, you may just get away with it

I know nothing about Greek taxes, but isn't this something you should have declared when you earned it?