Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar - page 4.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Picaflor on February 12, 2023, 11:03:15 AM

Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house

In my country the threshold is 40 EUR/transaction for a total of 120 EUR/year.
Between this tiny amount and the amounts needed to buy a house there are plenty of use cases for wanting to sell Bitcoin for fiat without KYC.

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 12, 2023, 11:00:08 AM

I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%.

You could have been mining those coins long ago. Or you could have been mining altcoins with your computer and sell for bitcoin.
It's not mandatory you've actually worked for them, especially if you already have a day job...

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 12, 2023, 11:00:08 AM

While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

If only the bank is your concern then a crypto card may do the job, just they need KYC and you may not be able to withdraw more than 2-300 EUR/day at the ATMs. You can, however, use them for daily shopping. Just (again) yeah, they're KYC unless you go for the very "underground" anon cards AlexPCS is selling.

Picaflor

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It depends on what you need it for.

For small purchases on Amazon etc., you can buy gift cards and vouchers. Or just stay below your CGT threshold.

If you need to sell a large amount, e.g. to buy a house, selling BTC for a truckload of suitcases filled with cash may be tricky. And even if you do, the taxman may one day ask you where you got the money from to buy the house with.

In some countries there is no CGT on crypto gains. In Europe, I reckon Portugal is one of those. If you want to cash out a large amount, obtaining a tax residency in such a country, then selling your BTC for euros (or real estate) might be an attractive option, but it's better to consult a tax advisor to make sure everything is above board.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: Lucius on February 12, 2023, 06:21:07 AM

@Ultegra134, what you want is possible (for now) in a country that you might want to visit for touristic reasons Wink

There are physical exchange offices that do not require KYC up to a certain amount, which was 2000 EUR last year, and I think they have now reduced that amount to 1000 EUR. The fee in such exchange offices is around 5%, which is not small, but still less than what you would have to pay in your country.

For more details, you can always contact me via PM and I can give you more detailed instructions.

I knew I had to visit you but didn't get the chance to do it this year either! Sucks.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 12, 2023, 06:31:21 AM

Hello, Ultegra134. We live in the same country. Could you please elaborate on why you'd get taxed by 24% (of the profit, I suppose)? As far as I'm concerned, there is no official tax framework of cryptocurrencies in Greece. Therefore, whether reporting 24% of the profit or not, it's still in the judgement of the tax collector.

I recommend you create a topic in the Greek board.

You're actually correct; it's 15% tax on declared profits. However, I haven't bought Bitcoin myself; I've started accumulating from scratch; wouldn't the whole amount get taxed since it's basically a source of income? That's why I thought it'd be 24%. While there isn't an official tax framework for cryptocurrencies yet, withdrawing a few thousand euros to my bank account wouldn't look too good, which is my main concern.

michellee

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You can try to find a local bitcoin seller in the same city as you and contact him if you need his help selling bitcoins. I think there must be someone who can help you to send fiat money to you after you send your BTC to him. But you really have to know who the person is and where he lives so you don't get scammed. Maybe you can find people who can act as third parties who will help send money to you through social media or others so you don't have to use any exchange. It's just you and him. Even though it may be difficult to find at this time, you should still try it, especially if you are in an urgent situation requiring fiat money.

BlackHatCoiner

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Hello, Ultegra134. We live in the same country. Could you please elaborate on why you'd get taxed by 24% (of the profit, I suppose)? As far as I'm concerned, there is no official tax framework of cryptocurrencies in Greece. Therefore, whether reporting 24% of the profit or not, it's still in the judgement of the tax collector.

I recommend you create a topic in the Greek board.

Lucius

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@Ultegra134, what you want is possible (for now) in a country that you might want to visit for touristic reasons Wink

There are physical exchange offices that do not require KYC up to a certain amount, which was 2000 EUR last year, and I think they have now reduced that amount to 1000 EUR. The fee in such exchange offices is around 5%, which is not small, but still less than what you would have to pay in your country.

For more details, you can always contact me via PM and I can give you more detailed instructions.

slaman29

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Why is P2P highly unlikely? My very first few BTC was actually directly from a person (not counting faucets and rain from casinos which amounted to very little anyway) and my very first "transaction" was also P2P.

I don't do it anymore these days as I hardly sell and it's actually easier with an exchange, but I don't see why I wouldn't.

How much do you have anyway? 1 BTC? Wink

Z-tight

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on February 12, 2023, 12:33:14 AM

it doesn't make you achieve 100% privacy, DEX and P2P platform only help you to maintain your privacy, not hide it from the government and chainalysis.

It is impossible to hide from the government if they are particularly or specifically looking for you, people maintain their privacy so governments, chainalysis and other people would not be able to trace them, but i think we all know that if the government go on a manhunt for you they are going to find you; but rarely do people have their government looking for them, so maintaining privacy is still very important.

Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 11, 2023, 04:30:57 PM

Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

You need to know someone in person who you trust, you can exchange your BTC with the person, but you must look at the disadvantages and risks of selling BTC that way, if you are satisfied, then you can go ahead with it.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 11, 2023, 04:30:57 PM

My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

Peer to Peer transaction is a good way to go for you and you can pick good P2P platforms without KYC. If you use their services, you must know how to choose likely good trade partners (old accounts, good reputation, good trading behavior score ...) and know how to mark your trade as Paid, how to start a dispute as well as make sure you always record your trade procedure in video format for dispute when you need it.

Current list of exchanges without KYC

Personally I recommend Bisq https://kycnot.me/exchange/bisq

electronicash

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there's got to be someone out there who wants to buy BTC and privacy concern individual and wants to buy in cash so there is no KYC as well. finding them is just a needle in the haystack.

transaction in person with cash on hand seems like a robbery ambush waiting. it's risky but probably meeting in public and close to a police station will lessen the risk.

Jawhead999

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@OP is asking a way to achieve 100% privacy when convert Bitcoin to Cash, but most people answer it through DEX and P2P platform. Well those exchanges are only protect you to submit KYC, but you're still leave a trace because you give your bank account or e-wallet etc. it doesn't make you achieve 100% privacy, DEX and P2P platform only help you to maintain your privacy, not hide it from the government and chainalysis.

This is tricky and illegal because you're trying to broke the laws on your country, I think except direct P2P and spent your Bitcoin to bought a stuff without submitting KYC, then sell the stuff for cash, there's not many good way.

dansus021

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The best way is through P2P exchanges like Bestchange or Localbitcoin(but it was already dead in a couple of months) Paxful or shapeshift but most of p2p exchanges will start to shutdown went they start to do KYC on their platform and its very hard to do in the meantime. Exchange that offer P2P service like Binance or Bybit Need KYC first before doing any kind of transaction.

If you have small amount maybe there is seller on this forum but when it comes to big chunk of money its different story

crypticj

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Try OTC or p2p. I'm sure there would be a lot of people that want to buy your bitcoin with cash. So I think it's the best way for you.

DaveF

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Not 100% ideal but there are options: https://agoradesk.com/buy-bitcoin-using-cash-by-mail-with-eur-in-greece
It's going to come down to when and how much.
Thinking about it and planning NOW is probably not really going to matter.
In the past few months both localbitcoins.com and LocalCryptos.com shut down.
Had you asked this question 4 months ago the answer would have been somewhat easy.

Now..... not so much.

So thinking about what you may be able to do next month, next year and so on may not matter since the plan may no longer be available....

-Dave

sheenshane

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 11, 2023, 06:38:27 PM

Quote from: sheenshane on February 11, 2023, 06:07:12 PM

Cash in hand? So it means physical transaction.
There's no way to choose a P2P in a personal transaction or in a Bitcoin ATM machine. These are your primary options and face consequences if you really want to.

This also depends on where place you are located, it might in your place Bitcoin was accepted in many department stores, and you can exchange your Bitcoin or ask the business owner.

But in online payment transactions, (wired or bank transfer) there are a bunch of DEXs or P2P exchanges that don't ask for KYC.
It's already provided above.

My main concern is to avoid having the money deposited into a bank account. If it's coming from an exchange, there's a decent chance, if it's a high amount, that you'll be asked for further details. I'm not quite sure about splitting deposits from P2P transactions, though. That way, it won't direct back to an exchange, right?

There's always a trade size limit on each exchange, it's a good idea if you read first the terms.
In Bisq here's what you need to know.
https://bisq.wiki/Account_limits

Have you tried Binance P2P?
There's a limit per trade size and you can read it here.

I tried this option without linking to my bank account but I used an app that supported remittances upon withdrawal of your money and don't need a bank account. It's called GCASH in my country, from your crypto convert it to fiat via p2p trade locally and send it to the app and then withdraw your fiat to any remittance center. I dont know where you come from but if there's an app have a feature like this in your country could be helpful.

kamvreto

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It's pretty crazy to see a 24% tax, is that real? because in my country crypto tax is only imposed on a centralized exchange and not on every user.
When you want to avoid centralized exchanges and banks, I'm sure you can avoid them all. Maybe you can avoid centralized exchanges with P2P transactions with people who accept crypto exchange services, but then the funds will be transferred to your bank account, obviously you can't avoid banks. Currently we still rely on centralized exchanges and banks to convert to fiat, but if bitcoin adoption takes place in your country, you can immediately use bitcoin as payment provided someone wants to accept bitcoin payments.
and for Bitcoin ATMs, it does use KYC and transaction fees are quite expensive.

Ultegra134

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First of all, thank you for all your replies, I'll try to be as brief as possible.

Quote from: DaveF on February 11, 2023, 05:52:23 PM

The question is where are you.
There are many people trading in Las Vegas or Miami or NYC for cash. Not so much in North Dakota.

Take a look at https://kycnot.me/ for a bunch of non KYC exchnages

https://agoradesk.com has the cash locally option.

You also have a few other options depending on your location.

You don't have to say where you are, but if you are in a more rural part of the world vs a big city your options will be more limited.

-Dave

I'm situated in Greece. Unfortunately, Bitcoin transactions aren't as popular as in the U.S so it's unlikely that I'll find someone willing to trade in person. On top of that, I'm in a rural area, away from major cities reducing my chances even more.

Quote from: sheenshane on February 11, 2023, 06:07:12 PM

Cash in hand? So it means physical transaction.
There's no way to choose a P2P in a personal transaction or in a Bitcoin ATM machine. These are your primary options and face consequences if you really want to.

This also depends on where place you are located, it might in your place Bitcoin was accepted in many department stores, and you can exchange your Bitcoin or ask the business owner.

But in online payment transactions, (wired or bank transfer) there are a bunch of DEXs or P2P exchanges that don't ask for KYC.
It's already provided above.

My main concern is to avoid having the money deposited into a bank account. If it's coming from an exchange, there's a decent chance, if it's a high amount, that you'll be asked for further details. I'm not quite sure about splitting deposits from P2P transactions, though. That way, it won't direct back to an exchange, right?

Quote from: Baofeng on February 11, 2023, 05:40:40 PM

I guess you don't have any options but go to the old and traditional way - P2P. But the risk is there as well specially if you don't know the other party, so it's going to be very difficult to find one specially if we are talking about thousands or even millions of dollars involved in that kind of exchange.

Or probably just break it down, instead of looking for just one person to do transaction, then maybe 4-5 will do and make it like every other day.

Bitcoin ATM too will charge you a lot if you do transactions, so not just KYC but a chunk of money is going to be deduction in your end.

I'm not exactly sure but I've read that some Bitcoin ATMs abroad don't require KYC, I might be wrong though. The ones currently available have a 6% fee for selling plus KYC. It seems like the easiest option to avoid banks but they still ask for your details (not sure what kind of details though).

GreatArkansas

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 11, 2023, 04:30:57 PM

(....)
Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

There are a lot of exchanges right now that offer Peer-to-Peer (P2P) transactions but most of these exchanges require a KYC process.
Since Localbitcoins is shutting down, there are few peer-to-peer (p2p) platforms now.
You can also achieve P2P transactions from your local cryptocurrencies/Bitcoin community if there are some willing to do the transactions just be careful and verify the buyer/seller because for sure you will transact physicall here.

sheenshane

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on February 11, 2023, 04:30:57 PM

Is there an actual, reliable way to exchange bitcoin for cash in hand? My best guess would be a P2P transaction in person, but that's quite unlikely.

Cash in hand? So it means physical transaction.
There's no way to choose a P2P in a personal transaction or in a Bitcoin ATM machine. These are your primary options and face consequences if you really want to.

This also depends on where place you are located, it might in your place Bitcoin was accepted in many department stores, and you can exchange your Bitcoin or ask the business owner.

But in online payment transactions, (wired or bank transfer) there are a bunch of DEXs or P2P exchanges that don't ask for KYC.
It's already provided above.

DaveF

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Crypto Swap Exchange

The question is where are you.
There are many people trading in Las Vegas or Miami or NYC for cash. Not so much in North Dakota.

Take a look at https://kycnot.me/ for a bunch of non KYC exchnages

https://agoradesk.com has the cash locally option.

You also have a few other options depending on your location.

You don't have to say where you are, but if you are in a more rural part of the world vs a big city your options will be more limited.

-Dave

Topic: Withdrawing Bitcoin off the radar - page 4. (Read 701 times)