Pages:
Author

Topic: Wonder who this solominer is? 88.6.216.9 - page 30. (Read 60445 times)

rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
Theoretically if you could intercept traffic going in and out of the pool's primary hosting provider, you could slurp up all the shares being submitted, but that wouldn't do you any good would it? the getwork that the pool is providing the miners is based on the pool's preferred block header, which has their address and such in it. Even if said attacker could "steal" the block, it would still pay out to said pool...

I may be mistaken in this, but that's how I see it from my understanding of how mining works.
Correct. However, if you can intercept shares in such a manner, you could also just provide your own work with your own bitcoind. Most users wouldn't be able to tell the difference, except that they would not be getting a payout of any kind from the pool.
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
Theoretically if you could intercept traffic going in and out of the pool's primary hosting provider, you could slurp up all the shares being submitted, but that wouldn't do you any good would it? the getwork that the pool is providing the miners is based on the pool's preferred block header, which has their address and such in it. Even if said attacker could "steal" the block, it would still pay out to said pool...

I may be mistaken in this, but that's how I see it from my understanding of how mining works.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
Oh sorry. I'd only looked at it a day or 2 ago when it looked like it was going up. Seems to have dropped since then.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
To get this back on track...

Thin foil hat scenario; deepbit is having  terrible luck (down -33%), so do some of the other pools Im looking at (bitminter for one, its also down by 30% at least). At the same time, mystery miner seems to be increasing his output (5 out of the last 20 blocks!), and the overall network hashrate is going slightly down, not up as youd expect if this is LargeCoin.

Is it somehow conceivable mystery miner is "stealing" blocks? Sniffing network packets? Bitminter and deepbit are hosted by the same company I think.
Wow, no I doubt it. And according to Sipa's graphs, the net speed is indeed increasing.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
To get this back on track...

Thin foil hat scenario; deepbit is having  terrible luck (down -33%), so do some of the other pools Im looking at (bitminter for one, its also down by 30% at least). At the same time, mystery miner seems to be increasing his output (5 out of the last 20 blocks!), and the overall network hashrate is going slightly down, not up as youd expect if this is LargeCoin.

Is it somehow conceivable mystery miner is "stealing" blocks? Sniffing network packets? Bitminter and deepbit are hosted by the same company I think.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
The voluntary fee scheme is something I saw as a potential source of problems since I first read about it. As you say, miners can't make the network pay a fees but they have the right to exclude transactions. This can lead to an uncertainty over what fee will make my transaction go through that ultimately hurts the whole system. I believe we will have to abandon this charity shop style of operation and switch to a "serious business" style of operation, where people know expected prices and are given some guarantees of getting what they paid for, in regards to fees and transactions.

I don't think building it into the protocol is necessary.  Improving the client might make more sense.  It could use historical pricing so provide users options.

Send with no fee (90% chance of confirmation within 4 hours)
Send with 0.01 fee (90% chance of confirmation within 2 hours)
Send with 0.025 fee (90% chance of confirmation within 40 minutes)

The issue I would fear with having rules in the protocol is it would be easy to game (both by miners and by large transaction entities).

I don't know, since I barely ever use the standard client to make my transactions I'm a bit biased towards thinking it wouldn't be sufficient to change common behaviours within the network. Most of the time I pay via withdrawing from my exchange (possibly the most anonymous easy way to do it) or I receive rewards from mining directly. I also run Armory. I think I've only made a grand total of 1 or 2 transactions ever from the official "Satoshi" client, and with standarisation, online wallets, speculation platforms, exchanges etc I'd expect the number of transactions made directly from the "official" Satoshi/Gavin client to be just a small percentage of all transactions. The fact that it's so bloody unfriendly and craps your HD prevents me from installing it in more than 1 computer and I bet I'm not alone.

Building a general set of conditions into the protocol would not be necessary. Just by having most of the big mining pools agreeing to a protocol for fees, a standard, predictable behaviour based on fees could be established.

For instance, if 80% of the mining power agreed not to process free (or < 0.001 *) transactions in less than 1 hour, then they would hardly get through any sooner.

* beware with setting a fee based on current exchange rates... that would need periodic revision. 0.001 for all we know could be a large sum for a fee in just a couple of years.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis

I still think the most important thing is that they have not figured out how to circumvent the proof of work...  they will eventually include transactions when you can make some btc's from it..  currently it is still mostly block reward!

Why do we know that?
We know that they solve about 30 blocks/day.

For all we know they might have found a semi-analytical/statistical algorithm that just takes a few computers and we calculate their hashing power only by solved blocks. AFAIK there's no conclusive evidence that it takes them 1.4GH/s to solve 30 blocks a day. That's just based on the current difficulty. All we know is that it still takes them at least some work to do it, otherwise they would be faster by now.



Umm, so with what 5 computers they can do 30 blocks a day, but they don't want to spring for 5 more?

In this bizarro universe they make $5k/day and have a super awesome more efficient way to find blocks, but aren't investing that money in it. O K.

Maybe they take the saying "Mo Money, Mo Problems" to heart and trying to avoid becoming too rich. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1015
Strength in numbers

I still think the most important thing is that they have not figured out how to circumvent the proof of work...  they will eventually include transactions when you can make some btc's from it..  currently it is still mostly block reward!

Why do we know that?
We know that they solve about 30 blocks/day.

For all we know they might have found a semi-analytical/statistical algorithm that just takes a few computers and we calculate their hashing power only by solved blocks. AFAIK there's no conclusive evidence that it takes them 1.4GH/s to solve 30 blocks a day. That's just based on the current difficulty. All we know is that it still takes them at least some work to do it, otherwise they would be faster by now.



Umm, so with what 5 computers they can do 30 blocks a day, but they don't want to spring for 5 more?

In this bizarro universe they make $5k/day and have a super awesome more efficient way to find blocks, but aren't investing that money in it. O K.
donator
Activity: 532
Merit: 501
We have cookies
There is no block chain to secure without transactions, and there are no transactions without the block chain.
Technically nothing stops blockchain from working without TXes. It may become worthless but still working.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
The voluntary fee scheme is something I saw as a potential source of problems since I first read about it. As you say, miners can't make the network pay a fees but they have the right to exclude transactions. This can lead to an uncertainty over what fee will make my transaction go through that ultimately hurts the whole system. I believe we will have to abandon this charity shop style of operation and switch to a "serious business" style of operation, where people know expected prices and are given some guarantees of getting what they paid for, in regards to fees and transactions.

I don't think building it into the protocol is necessary.  Improving the client might make more sense.  It could use historical pricing so provide users options.

Send with no fee (90% chance of confirmation within 4 hours)
Send with 0.01 fee (90% chance of confirmation within 2 hours)
Send with 0.025 fee (90% chance of confirmation within 40 minutes)

The issue I would fear with having rules in the protocol is it would be easy to game (both by miners and by large transaction entities).
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
Note that any mechanism forcing people to pay a fee will most certainly lead to fewer transactions. Users would try to bundle more payments in fewer transactions. Obviously this also lead to less blockchain bloat, but as a general rule I think it's safe to say we want more transactions.

The voluntary fee scheme is something I saw as a potential source of problems since I first read about it. As you say, miners can't make the network pay a fees but they have the right to exclude transactions. This can lead to an uncertainty over what fee will make my transaction go through that ultimately hurts the whole system. I believe we will have to abandon this charity shop style of operation and switch to a "serious business" style of operation, where people know expected prices and are given some guarantees of getting what they paid for, in regards to fees and transactions.

The problem is that right now the subsidy is still huge.  D&T thinks that there should be a minimum fee of 0.01 BTC per transaction.  This is still one or two orders of magnitude too low for transaction fees to be meaningful today.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
We (meaning the community) are paying for a service.  This person has found a loophole in our agreement, and they are taking the pay, but not providing the services that we desire.  The work may be worthless to them, but it is not worthless to us.  And since we are the ones paying, we have the right to revise the terms under which we'll pay for the work.
May be 50 BTC is the reward for securing the blockchain, not for including TXes ?

Seriously?

If that is the case, then the whole system was set up totally wrong.  The reward for securing the block chain will get lower and lower over time, presumably as the need for security grows, and will eventually end up at zero.

No, the two are combined for a reason.  There is no block chain to secure without transactions, and there are no transactions without the block chain.  You literally cannot have one without the other, and so the reward is for doing both jobs, not just one or the other.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
I have no doubt that transaction fees need to increase over the coming years but if all miners exclude transactions now (if one's doing it, then why no all?) you'll be sitting in your sandbox alone pretty soon without kids to play with. So play nice.

Really?  If it cost 0.01 BTC (roughly 5 pennies) to send any amount of money, anonymously, securely, and safely anywhere in the world there would be no value to Bitcoin?  If you think that Bitcoin can't survive with fees 1/100th of Paypal or VISA what are you doing here?  Personally I think Bitcoin is valuable even with higher fees but I am willing to start at 0.01 BTC.  I won't be "playing nice".  Playing nice has simply led us to this point where people think refusing to include transactions (THE RIGHT OF MINERS) is an exploit.  Miners can't make the network pay a fees but they certainly have the right to exclude transactions.  

Any fee that's considered reasonable or unreasonable by looking at the current exchange with US$ is introducing a factor of indexation with the dollar.

IMO the fee should be adjusted, like difficulty, in terms of the previous blocks, so that they are expected to add up to a certain quantity per block.

Let's take, for instance 1000 blocks as the unit of adjustment (1 week is 1008, so 1000 blocks would roughly include the variation expected during weekends/workdays and low/high hours) and let's say we want the total pay-out coming from fees to add up to 60 - current_block_reward (making total reward from fees + block discovery more or less stable at 60 over time). With 100 average transactions per block, that would mean an average 0.1 fee right now (60 - current_block_reward = 10). With 1000 transactions, that would mean a 0.01 fee. We'd need more transactions for this to be viable, and we'd need many more as block reward decreases.

Note that any mechanism forcing people to pay a fee will most certainly lead to fewer transactions. Users would try to bundle more payments in fewer transactions. Obviously this also leads to less blockchain bloat, but as a general rule I think it's safe to say we want more transactions.

The voluntary fee scheme is something I saw as a potential source of problems since I first read about it. As you say, miners can't make the network pay a fee but they have the right to exclude transactions. This can lead to an uncertainty over what fee will make my transaction go through that ultimately hurts the whole system. I believe we will have to abandon this charity shop style of operation and switch to a "serious business" style of operation, where people know expected prices and are given some guarantees of getting what they paid for, in regards to fees and transactions.
sr. member
Activity: 402
Merit: 250
That simple can not be true because I want to be the first who finds a flaw in (double) sha256 and make bitcoins that way.

btw, I'm sure there is a way to find collisions or even create a specific hash value, I'm just not sure if it will be found before 2^256 is possible to bruteforce.

ehrm... don't tell this anyone but .... Bitcoin mining is bruteforcing it! *looks shadily around hoping no one heard that*

XD
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 502

I still think the most important thing is that they have not figured out how to circumvent the proof of work...  they will eventually include transactions when you can make some btc's from it..  currently it is still mostly block reward!

Why do we know that?
We know that they solve about 30 blocks/day.

For all we know they might have found a semi-analytical/statistical algorithm that just takes a few computers and we calculate their hashing power only by solved blocks. AFAIK there's no conclusive evidence that it takes them 1.4GH/s to solve 30 blocks a day. That's just based on the current difficulty. All we know is that it still takes them at least some work to do it, otherwise they would be faster by now.


That simple can not be true because I want to be the first who finds a flaw in (double) sha256 and make bitcoins that way.

btw, I'm sure there is a way to find collisions or even create a specific hash value, I'm just not sure if it will be found before 2^256 is possible to bruteforce.
donator
Activity: 532
Merit: 501
We have cookies
We (meaning the community) are paying for a service.  This person has found a loophole in our agreement, and they are taking the pay, but not providing the services that we desire.  The work may be worthless to them, but it is not worthless to us.  And since we are the ones paying, we have the right to revise the terms under which we'll pay for the work.
May be 50 BTC is the reward for securing the blockchain, not for including TXes ?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
We (meaning the community) are paying for a service.  This person has found a loophole in our agreement, and they are taking the pay, but not providing the services that we desire.  The work may be worthless to them, but it is not worthless to us.  And since we are the ones paying, we have the right to revise the terms under which we'll pay for the work.

Your proposal isn't going anywhere.  Starting tomorrow I will be "exploiting" also.  Hopefully in time if enough miners choose to not give freeloaders first class access to transaction processing we will see more of a correlation between pay and performance.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
I have no doubt that transaction fees need to increase over the coming years but if all miners exclude transactions now (if one's doing it, then why no all?) you'll be sitting in your sandbox alone pretty soon without kids to play with. So play nice.

Really?  If it cost 0.01 BTC (roughly 5 pennies) to send any amount of money, anonymously, securely, and safely anywhere in the world there would be no value to Bitcoin?  If you think that Bitcoin can't survive with fees 1/100th of Paypal or VISA what are you doing here?  Personally I think Bitcoin is valuable even with higher fees but I am willing to start at 0.01 BTC.  I won't be "playing nice".  Playing nice has simply led us to this point where people think refusing to include transactions (THE RIGHT OF MINERS) is an exploit.  Miners can't make the network pay a fees but they certainly have the right to exclude transactions. 
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
"free" = "almost free".  0.001 BTC extra per block is essentially free.  In aggregate transaction fees are worthless.  Economic theory would suggest when something is worthless people don't care about aquiring it.  It isn't an "exploit" that someone doesn't go out of their way to complete worthless work.  Do you pick up pennies on the street?  Should you be forced to do so?  What if they weren't pennies and instead were penny dust where it multiple just to be worth a single penny?

0.001 BTC per block in fees is ~= worthless.  It isn't worthwhile to mine transactions, hence someone not doing it isn't an exploit.  Honestly miners only include fees to "support" Bitcoin not out of any economic value.  If in aggregate transaction fees were higher then there would be more economic incentive to include them.

You did finally convince me though so congrats.  I will be modifying the p2pool code to exclude all transactions without a fee of at least 0.01.  I won't be including worthless transactions either so I will be exploiting too.  I will make the changes available by open source so anyone else can do the same.

See, this isn't like picking up pennies on the street.  Not at all.

We (meaning the community) are paying for a service.  This person has found a loophole in our agreement, and they are taking the pay, but not providing the services that we desire.  The work may be worthless to them, but it is not worthless to us.  And since we are the ones paying, we have the right to revise the terms under which we'll pay for the work.
Pages:
Jump to: