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Topic: Wonder who this solominer is? 88.6.216.9 - page 31. (Read 60490 times)

donator
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Honestly miners only include fees to "support" Bitcoin not out of any economic value.  

Now that does _not_ make sense at all.

Of course they support it for an economic value.

Without getting people to adopt the bitcoin currency the economic value of the miners BTC would be worth squat. If you told users hey you all have to process your transactions for yourselves while we [the miners] rake in the dough for producing coins I don't see a widespread case for BTC.

Of course there's an economic motive behind processing transactions for "almost free" right now. View it as a promotional offer to get people hooked on BTC and allow miners and hoarders to benefit from their coin mining, because a currency needs an economy. I have no doubt that transaction fees need to increase over the coming years but if all miners exclude transactions now (if one's doing it, then why no all?) you'll be sitting in your sandbox alone pretty soon without kids to play with. So play nice.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
"free" = "almost free".  0.001 BTC extra per block is essentially free.  In aggregate transaction fees are worthless.  Economic theory would suggest when something is worthless people don't care about aquiring it.  It isn't an "exploit" that someone doesn't go out of their way to complete worthless work.  Do you pick up pennies on the street?  Should you be forced to do so?  What if they weren't pennies and instead were penny dust where it multiple just to be worth a single penny?

0.001 BTC per block in fees is ~= worthless.  It isn't worthwhile to mine transactions, hence someone not doing it isn't an exploit.  Honestly miners only include transactions with low/no fees to "support" Bitcoin not out of any direct economic value.  If in aggregate transaction fees were higher then there would be more economic incentive to include them.

You did finally convince me though so congrats.  I will be modifying the p2pool code to exclude all transactions without a fee of at least 0.01.  I won't be including worthless transactions either so I will be exploiting too.  I will make the changes available by open source so anyone else can do the same.  Hopefully other "exploiters" will join me.  If enough people do it fees per block will rise and there will be a correlation between pay and performance. 





donator
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Honestly miners only include transactions in blocks to be nice.  

Time and resources better spent increasing adoption, improving wallet security, and promoting Bitcoin.

Great, all miners let's not include any transactions and just mine for new blocks as long as the reward is higher than for transactions.

So you really think that will 'increase adoption' and 'promote Bitcoin'?

That would make mining for blocks a rather useless exercise, because until the new block reward dropped substantially in a few years from now hardly anyone but miners will use the system. Yes that's just the other extreme view, I hope reality stays somewhere in between, to actually enable sufficient adoption (meaning using this currency for transactions and pay stuff with it not just hoard and speculate with coins).

Just see kjj posted a resonable reply to D&T meanwhile.


Sooooo 'nice' to let other kids play in your sandbox too.

You have some other solution for when the subsidy no longer exists? Or are you just trying to milk it until you think you have squeezed everything out of the economy that you can?

0.01 BTC tx fee is not unreasonable.

What, me?

I'm not milking anything, just trying to use it.
Miners still get rewarded duly right now, anybody who complains about transactions being in their way for their "get rich quickly" (not quoting myself, read it on these boards) plan is trying to milk it.

When the time comes that new coin rewards are not sufficient anymore to sustain the system I'll happily do my share (I'm already granting higher fees than the default).

Just saw that kjj posted a reasonable reply to D&T. +1.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
However today there really is no loss to not include transactions.  Calling that an exploit is pathetic.  "He won't include my free transactions. .... WAAHHH.  EXPLOIT.  We need to include complex and dangerous counter protocol rules to force him."

This nonsense again?

Listen up dude, the only person in this thread that is talking about free transactions is you.  The problem is that these blocks include no transactions at all.

What is under discussion now is what to do in the next decade or two, while the coin generation subsidy is still large enough that it makes sense to mine blocks without transactions.  In the long run, the market will set the fees.  You don't need to keep repeating that because we all know it.  The whole system is designed around it.  But what happens in the short run can prevent the long run from happening.

P.S.  My proposal is neither complex nor dangerous.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
Honestly miners only include transactions in blocks to be nice. 

Time and resources better spent increasing adoption, improving wallet security, and promoting Bitcoin.

Great, all miners let's not include any transactions and just mine for new blocks as long as the reward is higher than for transactions.

So you really think that will 'increase adoption' and 'promote Bitcoin'?

That would make mining for blocks a rather useless exercise, because until the new block reward dropped substantially in a few years from now hardly anyone but miners will use the system. Yes that's just the other extreme view, I hope reality stays somewhere in between, to actually enable sufficient adoption (meaning using this currency for transactions and pay stuff with it not just hoard and speculate with coins).

Sooooo 'nice' to let other kids play in your sandbox too.

You have some other solution for when the subsidy no longer exists? Or are you just trying to milk it until you think you have squeezed everything out of the economy that you can?

0.01 BTC tx fee is not unreasonable.
donator
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Honestly miners only include transactions in blocks to be nice. 

Time and resources better spent increasing adoption, improving wallet security, and promoting Bitcoin.

Great, all miners let's not include any transactions and just mine for new blocks as long as the reward is higher than for transactions.

So you really think that will 'increase adoption' and 'promote Bitcoin'?

That would make mining for blocks a rather useless exercise, because until the new block reward dropped substantially in a few years from now hardly anyone but miners will use the system. Yes that's just the other extreme view, I hope reality stays somewhere in between, to actually enable sufficient adoption (meaning using this currency for transactions and pay stuff with it not just hoard and speculate with coins).

Sooooo 'nice' to let other kids play in your sandbox too.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Bitcoin is about freedom.   The protocol rules so you can mine a block with no transactions yet people decide "it isn't fair" and want to change it.  Some people just can't escape the nanny state mentality ("there should be a rule against that").  Sad. 
While I don't think that ignoring empty blocks will work the way some people hope, that seems like an incredibly broad and childish statement.
"Oh, you think there should be a rule against something that could be considered an exploit? Clearly you're just some pathetic government lackey who HATES FREEDOM!"

You said it yourself: The entire Bitcoin protocol is a series of rules designed to force people to behave.

What exploit?  Start paying more fees and miners will be more likely to include them in blocks.  Honestly miners only include transactions in blocks to be nice.  The token amount paid in fees hardly compensates for the work. 

50 BTC for 0 transactions vs 50.001 BTC (or less) for 100+ transactions. 

I might just modify my p2pool node to exclude all transactions with less than a 0.01 reward.

Free markets can solve most problems.   Higher fees = more profits to those who include them which means rising difficulty (as more hardware is deployed to chase those profits) which means lower profits for those who don't include them.  Eventually "mystery" will either be including transactions or taking a huge loss.

However today there really is no loss to not include transactions.  Calling that an exploit is pathetic.  "He won't include my free transactions. .... WAAHHH.  EXPLOIT.  We need to include complex and dangerous counter protocol rules to force him."

Time and resources better spent increasing adoption, improving wallet security, and promoting Bitcoin.
donator
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
What??  I do not think you understand hashing. 

Don't worry, I understand it. You don't need to roll up your sleeves to explain it to me  Roll Eyes

Let's hope for the über-powerful ASIC then that we're all so desperately waiting for...

sr. member
Activity: 402
Merit: 250
sub'd

This is indeed rather curious. I guess no ne has more info about the mystery miner ...
Let's just hope if it's some über powerful ASIC rest of us will gain access to it as well.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004

For all we know they might have found a semi-analytical/statistical algorithm that just takes a few computers and we calculate their hashing power only by solved blocks. AFAIK there's no conclusive evidence that it takes them 1.4GH/s to solve 30 blocks a day. That's just based on the current difficulty. All we know is that it still takes them at least some work to do it, otherwise they would be faster by now.

What??  I do not think you understand hashing. 
donator
Activity: 448
Merit: 250

I still think the most important thing is that they have not figured out how to circumvent the proof of work...  they will eventually include transactions when you can make some btc's from it..  currently it is still mostly block reward!

Why do we know that?
We know that they solve about 30 blocks/day.

For all we know they might have found a semi-analytical/statistical algorithm that just takes a few computers and we calculate their hashing power only by solved blocks. AFAIK there's no conclusive evidence that it takes them 1.4GH/s to solve 30 blocks a day. That's just based on the current difficulty. All we know is that it still takes them at least some work to do it, otherwise they would be faster by now.

legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000

I still think the most important thing is that they have not figured out how to circumvent the proof of work...  they will eventually include transactions when you can make some btc's from it..  currently it is still mostly block reward!
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
Bitcoin is about freedom.   The protocol rules so you can mine a block with no transactions yet people decide "it isn't fair" and want to change it.  Some people just can't escape the nanny state mentality ("there should be a rule against that").  Sad. 
While I don't think that ignoring empty blocks will work the way some people hope, that seems like an incredibly broad and childish statement.
"Oh, you think there should be a rule against something that could be considered an exploit? Clearly you're just some pathetic government lackey who HATES FREEDOM!"

You said it yourself: The entire Bitcoin protocol is a series of rules designed to force people to behave.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
I wonder if that's Art Forz and a uber secret ASIC  Shocked

I wonder if that's BFL with their 'proprietary implementation of FPGA and ASIC technology'... Tongue
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
Seal Cub Clubbing Club
I wonder if that's Art Forz and a uber secret ASIC  Shocked
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
I stand corrected.  Smiley
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
How much hashing power are we talking about?

12.5% of the network. They are getting around 30 blocks a day. So around 1.4Th if the network is running somewhere around 11Th.

30 blocks/144 blocks a day=.20833333*100=20.83% of the network. At 12.5% for 30 blocks that would = 240 blocks a day.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Psi laju, karavani prolaze.
How much hashing power are we talking about?

12.5% of the network. They are getting around 30 blocks a day. So around 1.4Th if the network is running somewhere around 11Th.

6*24*0.125=18
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 251
Almost 1.8 TH (and growing) if earlier reports in the thread are to be believed...

EDIT - Ninja'd. The only other single entity that has comparable hashing power afaik is ArtForz.
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
How much hashing power are we talking about?

12.5% of the network. They are getting around 30 blocks a day. So around 1.4Th if the network is running somewhere around 11Th.
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