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Topic: XEL - The Codable Decentralized Supercomputer - XEL.ORG (Read 2286 times)

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532
Hi;

As far as I remember or not mistaken Bitrrex was delistted XEL from their shity platform about 1-2 years ago. XEL has also disappeared from the Coinmarket website. Is XEL traded on an exchange now?

Kind regards

I don't think so. The project was developed on discord and has not had any movement for a long time.

The last message from a dev was more than 2 years ago:

any1 — 12/19/2021 12:37
100%, most ppl don't realize that their token are still alive thanks to a handful of ppl giving time/money for free ^^
member
Activity: 189
Merit: 86
Hi;

As far as I remember or not mistaken Bitrrex was delistted XEL from their shity platform about 1-2 years ago. XEL has also disappeared from the Coinmarket website. Is XEL traded on an exchange now?

Kind regards
hero member
Activity: 2170
Merit: 612
Online Security & Investment Corporation
I installed Genesix Wallet on Windows. I have my wallet address for the miner.
I installed the node at HiveOS.
I use a custom miner and I set Genesix wallet address in miner.
Now, it is mining.

Should I use a wallet into the node ?
Or is Genesix wallet address ok ?
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
...

Ad 2) It can be used for search strategies (like brute force) that can be solved by random guessing.
Ad 3) It works for some special cases of Monte Carlo Methods, namely those that can be solved by simple random guessing  Wink

Explanation: You can't trust any computation node in the network. Therefore you must verify each (partial) result from every single computation node. Furthermore the XEL network needs to determine who of the workers gets rewards. If you can't verify the (partial) results the workers best strategy would be to cheat (because it is less work).

For that reason the only meaningful application that remains is solving problems by random guessing, for which you can easily verify if the result is correct.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532
It is true that there has been no movement or development in recent months, but the network continues to be maintained thanks to 9-10 peers. I suppose they will have a cost, unless for some reason, it is free to maintain them. This gives me a modicum of hope. XEL left Bittrex 4 months ago and there they are still on without any apparent task.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073
Of course, it would be great if EK suddenly returns, and syclone buys him a tesla or two...

Apart of this... Some unrelated thoughts below.

Finished reading some of the ePL docs. They are pretty good btw.

In general, it looks like not many people (if any) have read those docs, as though the doc (for example https://docs.xel.org/learn-epl.html) is quite good and is written pretty well, it clearly lacks proofreading. It contains big number of typos, some mistakes, and some (though small) parts are not understandable, probably they are edited in a hurry. All this shows the real interest in the project was never high among followers... There were people who spent their time writing a good doc, but no people to spend some time to read it and provide feedback :/

Anyway, after spending some more time thinking on the topic, I'll try to address some of the issues Ismail123456 raised.

In my opinion there is basically no chance that this project will be revived.

From the point of view of computer science (CS), there is no use for this approach. In theoretical CS we learn how to classify problems in terms of their computational complexity (P, NP, EXP, NEXP,...). We think that some problems in NP are intractable (but we don't know for sure).
Tractable problems (the ones in P) can be solved in reasonable time, while intractable problems cannot be solved in reasonable time in general, no matter how much computational power you throw at those problems (not considering quantum computing). In general there is no hope in trying to solve an intractable problem by guessing, which is what this project is aiming at.
In short: From the point of view of computer science, this is a hopeless approach.

(1) First of all, the expression "In general there is no hope in trying to solve an intractable problem by guessing" is not correct. There is definitely a hope to solve intractable problem by guessing, but there is no guarantee it will be solved in polynomial (reasonable) time. So the conclusion "From the point of view of computer science, this is a hopeless approach." is not correct as well. It is not hopeless approach at all, it is just an approach which doesn't provide guarantee of solution.

The practice shows that though even if in general case the solution cannot be guaranteed, in many (and very often - in most of) practical cases solution can be quite easily found either by so called 'guessing', by brute force, or exhaustive search, or by other selective search methods.

One example from practice Smiley Long time ago when still learning in university, I was offered a task to develop a program to automate the timetable generation for the several university departments. Usually the process of compiling the schedule takes a lot of time from department management, so the higher management decided automating it could save valuable resources of department staff. This is a typical JSP (Job shop scheduling problem), and of course I was told by our computer science experts, who were proficient on JSP theory (and in general were much better in theory than practice) that task to generate optimal timetable is intractable and in general case has no solution. Well, but who cares about general case? I was well aware that this task was successfully completed by university staff two times per year for many years, and though it was a bit time consuming, it was perfectly solvable. So long story short, I developed that program, and it worked very well. It was generating a timetable by 'directed' search, starting from the seemingly the most promising variants. To get a more or less acceptable solution it needed to work just under one minute, but the longer it worked, the better timetable it generated. Now I recall that this task is an ideal task for solving with XEL (with some needed enhancements in storage capacity, sure).

(2) Secondly, some study of the documentation show this project is not solely aiming at solution of a problem by guessing. Yes, the example in the doc finds prime numbers by guessing and testing, but this is not the only use. Except random guessing, this approach is good for brute-force search, and for some other search strategies too.

(3) Thirdly, though I didn't work in a scientific research for very long time, and so I do not know all the cases where the XEL's approach could be applicable, I see at least one case where XEL's capabilities fit very well: those are the problems solvable by a whole class of methods - Monte Carlo ones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method). In my opinion (as a person, who personally used this method for problem solution in computational physics), it is a perfect match. You can perfectly parallelize such tasks, run them on computers of very different capacities, and bring the results together then. The more samples you generate and analyze, the more precise your solution will be.

In short, in my humble opinion - though intractable problems are not solvable for general case, in most practical cases solution can be found. And random guessing is by far not the only way this platform could be used.
I find this approach far from being hopeless, and platform far from being unusable. It just needs to be used correctly; for right set of tasks. And of course, it needs people willing to work on it, not purely speculate...
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
EK WE NEED YOU!   Please come back and revive this beauty.  I'll buy you a tesla.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073
Well... thanks for your input. I admit (actually I never said the opposite) indeed this area is outside of what I would describe as the scope of my main interests... In other words, its not what I would voluntarily spend my free time on Smiley. I managed to avoid reading  XEL documentation for several years now, but the credit goes to you - you made me read it now Smiley

First, ePL doesn't allow for any data structure nor does it has objects. Java is object oriented. You can't compare it with ePL.
Yep, my bad, I somehow had Ethereum in mind when writing about Java. This one is far from Java, but not only because Java is object-oriented. Object-orientation is more of a approach to a programming, than solely a feature of a language. One can easily write object-oriented code in C, despite the fact that C doesn't have explicit constructs for object-oriented programming; like its done in Linux kernel in particular. Similarly, data structures can be easily emulated, if we have an ability to actually name variables. Though of course all this doesn't change the fact that ePL is incomparably less powerful than Java or C, so I agree, I should have been more careful in wording. Sorry for that.

Second, the solution of a problem you want to solve by XEL has to be encoded in such a way that one can verify if a given random number is a solution of the problem. XEL works by parallel random guessing, that's how it is.
Thats something new to me, I had different impression. The example used in the doc is surely pointing to ePL usage the way you described - solely by checking if a random number is a solution to a problem; however I am not yet sure it cannot be used in a different way. Let me read the doc first...

Third, if you want to use ePL to solve a problem you will most likely need an intermediate step to encode the problem in ePL (for the first two reasons).
Sure, that step is needed. But that shouldn't be a big issue, if the task is indeed solvable by the means ePL provides.

I have the impression that no one of the people who actually hold some XEL coins have the slightest understanding of XEL or/and computer science. This is another reason why I think that the project is lost forever without any chance to be revived.
I wouldn't generalize so much... After all, you are here and probably hold some XEL coins; if not - I am ready to send you some, so we'll have a XEL holder with some understanding of XEL or/and computer science Smiley. Jokes aside, some (few) definitely have some knowledge, but no interest in XEL specifically. Unfortunately, this place is mostly inhabited by traders and speculators, rather than people who have genuine interest, and moreover, a working knowledge in this technology. In general, I suppose the huge number of different altcoin projects contribute to the fact that it is not attractive for someone to focus on a single project, by spending considerable time to read and dive deep into details, while new projects and opportunities pop all the time. At least it is/was true regarding myslef, in particular; though I cannot be sure about others. The result is what we have now, and I wrote that a bit earlier - this project has almost zero chances to survive in this environment.

to be continued... still reading the ePL doc... could take a while with my English and lack of free time...
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
Ismail, what makes think this project is aimed at resolution of intractable problems by guessing? Huh
Maybe I misunderstood something.
What are the types of problems the project aims to solve? You mentioned computer science class in universities, what class could that be?

I wouldn't say I have really good understanding of XEL project's capabilities, but I would put it this way: it can work on tasks which can be programmed in ePL language, which is a bit simplified variant of either Java or C-like language (https://docs.xel.org/learn-epl.html). So basically, if I understand it correctly, if you can code a task on Java, you can probably run it on XEL network using all the computers connected to it, which provide you a computational resource.

However, when speaking about possibility to use the project as a part of training program in computer science class, I meant the project itself, not its capabilities (though they could be used too, if project is polished good enough, and all the necessary features added). I mean something like a distributed computing class, where students can take the code of a computation client in https://github.com/xel-software, examine that, learn it, add missing functionality, fix bugs, and maintain a XEL network. This could provide them with first-hand experience with a working distributed computing solution.

First, ePL doesn't allow for any data structure nor does it has objects. Java is object oriented. You can't compare it with ePL.
Second, the solution of a problem you want to solve by XEL has to be encoded in such a way that one can verify if a given random number is a solution of the problem. XEL works by parallel random guessing, that's how it is.
Third, if you want to use ePL to solve a problem you will most likely need an intermediate step to encode the problem in ePL (for the first two reasons).

I have the impression that no one of the people who actually hold some XEL coins have the slightest understanding of XEL or/and computer science. This is another reason why I think that the project is lost forever without any chance to be revived.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073
Ismail, what makes think this project is aimed at resolution of intractable problems by guessing? Huh
Maybe I misunderstood something.
What are the types of problems the project aims to solve? You mentioned computer science class in universities, what class could that be?

I wouldn't say I have really good understanding of XEL project's capabilities, but I would put it this way: it can work on tasks which can be programmed in ePL language, which is a bit simplified variant of either Java or C-like language (https://docs.xel.org/learn-epl.html). So basically, if I understand it correctly, if you can code a task on Java, you can probably run it on XEL network using all the computers connected to it, which provide you a computational resource.

However, when speaking about possibility to use the project as a part of training program in computer science class, I meant the project itself, not its capabilities (though they could be used too, if project is polished good enough, and all the necessary features added). I mean something like a distributed computing class, where students can take the code of a computation client in https://github.com/xel-software, examine that, learn it, add missing functionality, fix bugs, and maintain a XEL network. This could provide them with first-hand experience with a working distributed computing solution.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
Ismail, what makes think this project is aimed at resolution of intractable problems by guessing? Huh
Maybe I misunderstood something.
What are the types of problems the project aims to solve? You mentioned computer science class in universities, what class could that be?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073
In my opinion there is basically no chance that this project will be revived.

From the point of view of computer science (CS), there is no use for this approach. In theoretical CS we learn how to classify problems in terms of their computational complexity (P, NP, EXP, NEXP,...). We think that some problems in NP are intractable (but we don't know for sure).
Tractable problems (the ones in P) can be solved in reasonable time, while intractable problems cannot be solved in reasonable time in general, no matter how much computational power you throw at those problems (not considering quantum computing). In general there is no hope in trying to solve an intractable problem by guessing, which is what this project is aiming at.
In short: From the point of view of computer science, this is a hopeless approach.

Ismail, what makes think this project is aimed at resolution of intractable problems by guessing? Huh
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
In my opinion there is basically no chance that this project will be revived.

From the point of view of computer science (CS), there is no use for this approach. In theoretical CS we learn how to classify problems in terms of their computational complexity (P, NP, EXP, NEXP,...). We think that some problems in NP are intractable (but we don't know for sure).
Tractable problems (the ones in P) can be solved in reasonable time, while intractable problems cannot be solved in reasonable time in general, no matter how much computational power you throw at those problems (not considering quantum computing). In general there is no hope in trying to solve an intractable problem by guessing, which is what this project is aiming at.
In short: From the point of view of computer science, this is a hopeless approach.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073


Yes, indeed, there is a withdrawal warning in the "Token Withdrawal After Delisting" of the announcement you referred too. And formally Bittrex can remove the wallet at any moment, and refer all annoyed customers to that warning... But practically I have noticed they try to be more cautios, and provide their customers with appropriate wallet removal email warnings - sometimes 2-3 times before actually removing wallet. Probably they try to avoid unnecessary complications, which will surely arise if they don't provide enough warnings before removing the wallet (as this could bring to a loss of funds belonging to a customer).

Not only XEL wallet is still online. I have another coin in the same list, which still has active wallet on Bittrex, despite market being delisted for few months already. As to the reasons of this behavior from Bittrex, I can think of few reasons, but I have no idea whether any of them is correct...

One thing is pretty clear - even if they didn't delist those wallets yet, they are going to do that sooner or later, unless any of the delisted projects gains REAL traction, which is unlikely.

Do you have any opinion about the possibility of resuscitating the project or do you think that we will not see the conditions of 2017 again, in which without having a defined team either, several people agreed to do things?

Well, as it is known, everyone has an opinion Smiley. I don't think my opinion matters a lot in this topic.

The conditions you speak about, and very rare. Having a world-class developer jumping in and working on some project without any financial support and with limited interest from community, is something close to a miracle in our world. Miracles happen, but somebody should put a lot of talent and energy for them to happen. Namely to attract good developers and try to revive/recreate the community. Do you see anybody who is going to do that?

To answer to your question in short - no, I do not think we'll have this project revived. Especially now, when it has lost the only exchange, and there is zero financial interest in reviving it. As there is no financial interest, there is practically zero chance any solid developer will join here for long (save for the 'miracle' option). The only good fit for such a project (and a really good fit) - is to be run as a part of a training program in computer science class in universities. So if anyone has any connection to university (professor or student) - step up!
hero member
Activity: 1442
Merit: 535
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Do you have any opinion about the possibility of resuscitating the project or do you think that we will not see the conditions of 2017 again, in which without having a defined team either, several people agreed to do things?

Coin looks as a newbody with untracked market data. I knows a few projects, which was created in 2017-18. What is the privilege of this idea over anothers?


the site is still up but the dev was last online last year. no updates, no nothing. so it seems they are abandoning this project and dont think it is a smart move to revive the project. if you want to revive this, just create your own, at least the control of site and other important stuffs are yours. another one bites the dust.
but they made an update on their git last 26 days ago. does it mean they are still working on this project?

Maybe you are right. It looks as a dead project. Marketcap is shows nothing, it is a best indicator of live. 
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1102
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
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Do you have any opinion about the possibility of resuscitating the project or do you think that we will not see the conditions of 2017 again, in which without having a defined team either, several people agreed to do things?

Coin looks as a newbody with untracked market data. I knows a few projects, which was created in 2017-18. What is the privilege of this idea over anothers?


the site is still up but the dev was last online last year. no updates, no nothing. so it seems they are abandoning this project and dont think it is a smart move to revive the project. if you want to revive this, just create your own, at least the control of site and other important stuffs are yours. another one bites the dust.
but they made an update on their git last 26 days ago. does it mean they are still working on this project?
hero member
Activity: 1442
Merit: 535
Coin looks as a newbody with untracked market data. I knows a few projects, which was created in 2017-18. What is the privilege of this idea over anothers?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532


Yes, indeed, there is a withdrawal warning in the "Token Withdrawal After Delisting" of the announcement you referred too. And formally Bittrex can remove the wallet at any moment, and refer all annoyed customers to that warning... But practically I have noticed they try to be more cautios, and provide their customers with appropriate wallet removal email warnings - sometimes 2-3 times before actually removing wallet. Probably they try to avoid unnecessary complications, which will surely arise if they don't provide enough warnings before removing the wallet (as this could bring to a loss of funds belonging to a customer).

Not only XEL wallet is still online. I have another coin in the same list, which still has active wallet on Bittrex, despite market being delisted for few months already. As to the reasons of this behavior from Bittrex, I can think of few reasons, but I have no idea whether any of them is correct...

One thing is pretty clear - even if they didn't delist those wallets yet, they are going to do that sooner or later, unless any of the delisted projects gains REAL traction, which is unlikely.

Do you have any opinion about the possibility of resuscitating the project or do you think that we will not see the conditions of 2017 again, in which without having a defined team either, several people agreed to do things?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1073
Have you seen that the Bittrex wallet still has more than 39 MM XEL, and that almost every day there are transfers, despite the fact that the withdrawal period ended 2 months ago?

https://explorer.xel.org/address/XEL-AQVJ-PPCK-QJYJ-8T65V/

As far as I understand, the XEL wallet is not removed from Bittrex, and there was no withdrawal period announced. They only removed the market, but kept the wallet open until further notice. Typically they send notifications when removing any coin's wallet. I did not get any such notification regarding the XEL wallet yet.

Thank you very much for the clarification.
In the notice that bittrex made on the occasion of the exit of XEL and others, they indicated that there was a month or less to withdraw.

https://bittrexglobal.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017409679-Pending-Market-Removals-11-20-2020

Is it normal for Bittrex to keep the XEL wallet? does it with others? I think that if an exchange makes this decision, I do not understand that it maintains this support longer than usual.

Yes, indeed, there is a withdrawal warning in the "Token Withdrawal After Delisting" of the announcement you referred too. And formally Bittrex can remove the wallet at any moment, and refer all annoyed customers to that warning... But practically I have noticed they try to be more cautios, and provide their customers with appropriate wallet removal email warnings - sometimes 2-3 times before actually removing wallet. Probably they try to avoid unnecessary complications, which will surely arise if they don't provide enough warnings before removing the wallet (as this could bring to a loss of funds belonging to a customer).

Not only XEL wallet is still online. I have another coin in the same list, which still has active wallet on Bittrex, despite market being delisted for few months already. As to the reasons of this behavior from Bittrex, I can think of few reasons, but I have no idea whether any of them is correct...

One thing is pretty clear - even if they didn't delist those wallets yet, they are going to do that sooner or later, unless any of the delisted projects gains REAL traction, which is unlikely.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 532
Have you seen that the Bittrex wallet still has more than 39 MM XEL, and that almost every day there are transfers, despite the fact that the withdrawal period ended 2 months ago?

https://explorer.xel.org/address/XEL-AQVJ-PPCK-QJYJ-8T65V/

As far as I understand, the XEL wallet is not removed from Bittrex, and there was no withdrawal period announced. They only removed the market, but kept the wallet open until further notice. Typically they send notifications when removing any coin's wallet. I did not get any such notification regarding the XEL wallet yet.

Thank you very much for the clarification.
In the notice that bittrex made on the occasion of the exit of XEL and others, they indicated that there was a month or less to withdraw.

https://bittrexglobal.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017409679-Pending-Market-Removals-11-20-2020

Is it normal for Bittrex to keep the XEL wallet? does it with others? I think that if an exchange makes this decision, I do not understand that it maintains this support longer than usual.
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