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Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1347. (Read 3313670 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:56:03 PM
If you don't want 1/50K bruteforceability (i.e. you want strong end-to-end security) you have to turn off TouchID.

And then again my point remains, that open source or not, a long secure password is a PITA and Apple makes that option available.

Sorry I think religion got the better of your judgement.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:54:48 PM
Please explain how TouchID with a secure password is dependent on DRM?

Thank you for the link to Apple's support page. Here's what you were asking for:

Every fingerprint is unique, so it is rare that even a small section of two separate fingerprints are alike enough to register as a match for Touch ID. The probability of this happening is 1 in 50,000 for one enrolled finger.

1/50K is small enough to brute force if DRM didn't prevent it. Some of DRM may be implemented in hardware on newer phones though.

If you don't want 1/50K bruteforceability (i.e. you want strong end-to-end security) you have to turn off TouchID.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
April 12, 2016, 06:50:11 PM
This is getting out of topic can we get back to monero speculation pls
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:49:54 PM
Since security is only as secure as its weakest point, you can choose to increase the security of a 4 or 6-digit passcode by using a complex alphanumeric passcode. You can do this when creating a passcode by tapping ‘Passcode Options’ and selecting Custom Alphanumeric Code.

Yeah it is getting way off topic and your citations adds more holes to ArticMine's points.

Bottom line is it is very difficult to secure a mass market mobile device.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:48:41 PM
Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash  Huh

Ask apple.

Are you saying that is a fact? Any citation on that?

See edit above
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:45:11 PM
Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash  Huh

Ask apple.

Are you saying that is a fact? Any citation on that?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:44:38 PM
...

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

Be honest with the end user rather than try to mislead in order to market. Giving the end user a false sense of security is far worse than no security at all. The key here is that the end user makes an informed choice. The user then makes a trade off between security and convenience.

1) A secure password.
2) A separate key that can be inserted into the device.
3) No security. Rely only on physical possession. User does not keep sensitive data on the device.
4) Weak security / DRM. Useful only if one wants to delay rather than prevent access. This can be effective where time is of the essence to an attacker.

Please explain how TouchID with a secure password is dependent on DRM?

Apple can't force people to adopt strong security if they have no desire to. Those who have a desire to, will use a secure password and TouchID (or not use Apple device).

I don't see the citations that show me that Apple has forced everyone to accept DRM for their security?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:43:05 PM
Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash  Huh

Ask Apple, i don't know the details of the implementation or design decision. Maybe it doesn't lose it, but Apple still requires the passcode after a reset, for whatever their reasons.

I agree with you that it is possible to do what you suggest (long secure password, assuming you don't lose it), but very few people do it or will ever do it.

Quote
Citations please.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-touch-ID-on-the-iPhone-5S-ask-you-to-enter-a-password-after-restart-and-not-just-allow-fingerprint-scanning-alone

We're veering off topic in any case, I think, unless Monero has similar issues.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:40:59 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

If you are traveling away from the inconvenient location, and your phone resets for whatever reason (including an OS bug/crash, dead battery, etc.), you will lose access to it. Also some other operations you might want to perform such as upgrades require that actual passcode, not touchID. So this is, at present, impractical.

Also, you will lose access entirely if you forget the strong password and don't even have it written down in an inconvenient location.

Quote
I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

If you use a strong password, you wouldn't be following Apple's recommendations, which was what ArticMine's said earlier.

Sorry I am not seeing it the way you are trying to spin it.

What I see is that there is no solution for a long password in any case where you wouldn't leave it an inconvenient location. Open source or not.

Apple has done the best they can, by allowing you to have a very secure password with a fingerprint access where you don't need the secure password.

Why would a phone reset lose my fingerprint hash  Huh

Citations please. And also citation that Apple recommends 6 letter passcode when using TouchID and makes no mention of the option to set a secure password when using TouchID?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:32:28 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

If you are traveling away from the inconvenient location, and your phone resets for whatever reason (including an OS bug/crash, dead battery, etc.), you will lose access to it. Also some other operations you might want to perform such as upgrades require that actual passcode, not touchID. So this is, at present, impractical.

Also, you will lose access entirely if you forget the strong password and don't even have it written down in an inconvenient location.

Quote
I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

If you use a strong password, you wouldn't be following Apple's recommendations, which was what ArticMine's said earlier.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
April 12, 2016, 06:31:29 PM
...

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

Be honest with the end user rather than try to mislead in order to market. Giving the end user a false sense of security is far worse than no security at all. The key here is that the end user makes an informed choice. The user then makes a trade off between security and convenience.

1) A secure password.
2) A separate key that can be inserted into the device.
3) No security. Rely only on physical possession. User does not keep sensitive data on the device.
4) Weak security / DRM. Useful only if one wants to delay rather than prevent access. This can be effective where time is of the essence to an attacker.

An example of (4) where delay could work. Let us say one stores the Monero keywords un encrypted on a 5.25in floppy disk, and then places the 5.25in floppy disk in a bank safety deposit box. If the safety deposit box is compromised then the owner can empty the Monero wallet while the attacker tries to figure out how to read the 5.25 in floppy disk. One the other hand let us say the owner dies. Then the executor of the Monero owner's estate has ample time to figure out how to read the 5.25 in floppy disk.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:27:27 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.

But if you can access with TouchID, then you can justify typing a secure passcode if you want one because you won't lose access if you forget your passcode (or only have it written down at an inconvenient location).

I am asking for proof that doing that, will still rely on DRM which can be used to decode your private files.

Sorry religious arguments (e.g. "Apple is closed source therefor they must be doing evil in every aspect") are not logic for me. I need the logic.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:17:29 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.

TouchID is, at present, a convenience feature that allows fast unlocking functions instead of typing in a passcode. It is never required and the passcode is always required. Thus it can't possibly add any additional security beyond what the passphrase already provides.

What they have planned for the future I have no idea.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 12, 2016, 06:17:15 PM
Think about some of the obvious use cases we all dream about...getting paid in crypto.  Should everybody in the world have a salary that is public record?

Do we want to have psychopaths monitoring every dime spent by every public figure?  Do I even care or should I know how much my mayor paid for that refrigerator?

If I were senior manager of a company, particularly one in the R&D side of things, would I want all of my competitors to know what I'm spending on?

Perfect example.  Agree totally.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

But that is because the user didn't wipe their fingerprint off the phone. That doesn't prove that TouchID has an insecure DRM.

Precisely what sort of access would you recommend for a mobile device? Uses will not memorize a secure password.

A separate key they carry on their keychain?

P.S. this is important to me because my former colleague and boss if a top researcher at Apple.  And I have his ear. So I don't want to present an argument to him that is flawed.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:10:17 PM
...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?


Quote
Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

This was changed fairly recently, and yes I agree it is still pretty trivial to crack. Interestingly there are some, err, "bugs" that will sometimes require you to set specifically a 4 digit passcode. You can change it later, but some people won't...

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
April 12, 2016, 06:08:25 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

Also, TouchID is only a secondary mechanism. When you power cycle an iOS device you always have to unlock it with he password first, only then can you use TouchID. Later, you can use the password instead (necessary if TouchID doesn't work, which apparently is not so uncommon).

Finally, I don't think the phone in question had TouchID
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
April 12, 2016, 06:06:24 PM
...

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows (by hashing the fingerprint data)?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

TouchID. has already been long since being cracked. https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid I mean seriously someone's phone is not going to have their fingerprints on it? Giving people a false sense of security in order to sell security theater is detestable.

Edit: Remembering a well chosen secure password can actually be easier than remembering a six digit number.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 12, 2016, 06:02:16 PM
...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?


Quote
Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

To have TouchID you must have a typeable pw backup

Details please? Where is the specification for all this stuff? Closed source?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
April 12, 2016, 06:00:06 PM
...

ArticMine thank you. I learned something new and important. Do you have any citation to backup your claim of Apple's recommend policy of using an insecure password and their DRM?


Quote
Tap Turn Passcode On.
Enter a six-digit passcode. Or tap Passcode Options to switch to a four-digit numeric code, a custom numeric code, or a custom alphanumeric code.
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204060

Edit: I stand corrected Apple's default is a 6 digit numeric number as the password also trivial to crack.

But wouldn't the TouchID be creating a secure password that only the user knows?

I am thinking Apple recommends the 6 digit only because they know most users can't remember a long secure password. That is why Apple created TouchID.

Thus I am sorry, but I think you are incorrect on this issue.

I do think Apple uses a separate password to control which s/w you can install, which I detest, but that is an orthogonal issue.

To have TouchID you must have a typeable pw backup
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