Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1494. (Read 3313576 times)

Valuation of common assets: Seashells: No, Monero: No, Eth: No
Constant utility: Seashells: No, Monero: Yes, Eth: Yes(?)
Low cost of preservation Seashells: Yes, Monero[/i:] Yes, Eth: Yes : LOW is a subjective term
Transportability: Seashells, No [Monero: Yes, Eth: Yes 
Divisibility: Seashells: No, Monero Yes, Eth: Yes
High market value in relation to volume and weight: Seashells: No Monero: yes, Eth: Yes :High is a subjective term
Recognizability: Seashells: yes Monero; No, Eth: No : your dreaming if you think Eth is more recognizable in anything but a minimalist subset
Resistance to counterfeiting Seashells: No Monero: Yes, Eth, No(?)

Question marks for Eth are there as the Peer review nor maturity is no where near being at a acceptable level to provide trust

FTFY

I produced the following chart. Welcome any feedback and/or corrections


Valuation of common assets: Seashells: No, Monero: No, Eth: No
Constant utility: Seashells: No, Monero: No, Eth: Yes
Low cost of preservation Seashells: Yes, Monero[/i:] yes, Eth: Yes
Transportability: Seashells, No [Monero: Yes, Eth: Yes
Divisibility: Seashells: No, Monero Yes, Eth: Yes
High market value in relation to volume and weight: Seashells: No Monero: yes, Eth: Yes
Recognizability: Seashells: yes Monero; No, Eth: Yes
Resistance to counterfeiting Seashells: Yes? Monero: Yes, Eth, Yes

Actually we're not trading sea-shell for seashells.And it's not a club but nice try making it sound cutesy. It's a movement that making waves. You should sea for yourself. My friend Shelley gets paid completely in the  damn things (be it you may not see it for yourself) but it actually does take place more often than you think. She sells sea shells for all sorts of things and I buy them with silver coins, or sometimes brass or nickel shavings. I even traded a handful of Lealanas for an exquisite specimen one time. My other buddy Tom trades them too. He's a carpenter who recently lost his wife and found himself unable to work after breaking both arms in a snowmobile accident.  so he'll chuck me a few shells in exchange for me polishing his wood or sanding things down.

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Good question. I never said ETH wasn't a currency. But nice try to bring another topic of discussion that has nothing to do with me into our conversation.

I never said seashells are not a currency. But if you and your friend want to have your little seashell trading club that's fine. But if you are trading sea shells...how is that in any way a medium of exchange?

If I trade silver coins for other silver coins....the medium has not changed.

Once again your logic failed?  

I will answer when I have time, but for now suggest this as background on what is moneyness:

Seashells did indeed stop being used as a common medium of exchange long ago. Much like silver standard being abandoned almost a century ago. People moved onto something different.  I wish we still had metal backed money and I hold some physical PM's, and asset backed PM's on the blockchain more for novelty than wealth preservation or bc I'm a disaster prepper silverbug.  I can't say with a straight face that they are generally accepted or in general use in day to day life, just like bitcoin.

if the case is that only two people agree on a medium of exchange- then it becomes labelled as a currency, then how is XMR a currency and ETH, not? (As claimed above) How are seashells not a currency when me and my friends always trade cowries. Why won't starbucks or anyone for that matter let me buy shit with these shells?

Money acts as a standard measure and common denomination of trade. As a result, it is a basis for quoting and bargaining prices. It is necessary for developing efficient accounting systems, but its most important use is that it provides a method to compare the values of dissimilar objects. Money functions as:

A medium of exchange
A unit of account
A store of value
A Medium of Exchange

When money is used to intermediate the exchange of goods and services, it is performing the function of a medium of exchange. It avoids the inefficiencies of a barter system, such as the dependence on the occurrence of a coincidence of wants. To be widely acceptable, a medium of exchange should have stable purchasing power. Therefore, it should possess the following characteristics:

Valuation of common assets
Constant utility
Low cost of preservation
Transportability
Divisibility
High market value in relation to volume and weight
Recognizability
Resistance to counterfeiting
Gold was popular as a medium of exchange and store of value because it was inert. Gold was convenient to move because even small amounts of it had considerable value. Gold also had a constant value due to its special physical and chemical properties, which made it cherished by men.

A Unit of Account

A unit of account is a standard numerical unit of measurement of the market value of goods, services, and other transactions. Also known as a "measure" or "standard" of relative worth and deferred payment, a unit of account is a necessary prerequisite for the formulation of commercial agreements. To function as a unit of account, whatever is being used as money must meet these characteristics:

It must be divisible into smaller units without a loss of value. For example, precious metals can be coined from bars or melted down into bars again.
It must be fungible. In other words, one unit or piece must be perceived as equivalent to any other. This is why diamonds, works of art, or real estate are not suitable as money.
It must have a specific weight, measure, or size in order to be verifiably countable. For instance, coins are often milled with a reeded edge, so that any removal of material from the coin (lowering its commodity value) will be easy to detect.
A Store of Value

To act as a store of value, money must be able to be reliably saved, stored, and retrieved. Moreover, it must be predictably usable as a medium of exchange when it is retrieved. The value of the money must also remain stable over time. Put simply, money acting as a store of value allows its owner to transfer real purchasing power from the present to the future. Some have argued that inflation, by reducing the value of money, diminishes its ability to function as a store of value. Money can also function as a "standard of deferred payment," which means that its status as a legal tender allows it to function for the discharge of debts.


Source: Boundless. “Functions of Money.” Boundless Business. Boundless, 21 Feb. 2016. Retrieved 06 Mar. 2016 from https://www.boundless.com/business/textbooks/boundless-business-textbook/the-functions-of-money-and-banking-21/money-as-a-tool-123/functions-of-money-568-3194/

Your point is a moot one.

If two people agree on a medium of exchange as a currency then it is simply that,... a currency.

Your STARBUCKs example is broken when comaring Monero to a "currency".

I'm pretty sure seashells stopped being used as a medium of exchange long ago. Not sure what your point was there. Unlike gold and silver which are still used as currency (be it you may not see it for yourself) but it actually does take place more often than you think.

Just because not everyone accepts gold/silver/monero/bitcoin for payment does not make it NOT a currency.

That is my point ^.

Thanks. You are correct and what I wrote is wrong, hashrate is not on a declne.


I get what you're saying. we cannot instantly jump into the second and third phase. I do remember a time,  when btc was not even in a speculation phase, there was no incentive to hoard/and speculate on price changes. In fact there was no price feed to speak of. . It took time for anyone to offer any goods or services after slashdot runup, new liberty feeds etc. first it was no more than digital goods, then tea leaves offered, then alpaca socks. Today we have clearly made some progress.

I have held XMR , and followed early antics, prior to current teams coup of project from T_F_T when it was bitmonero. Don't currently hold any right now. It's one of the few and far between genuinely interesting projects, which is obviously not a scam. But IMO it has stuck too long on tier 1 without advancing, to seriously imagine it will fulfill 2 seriously, much less tier 3.I think most alts have a finite amount of time to grow rapidly, and if they fail to innovate and grow, we see stagnation followed by occasional boom bust cycles when the project either has incredibly good news, or manipulators see money making opportunity and everyone else jumps on bandwagon, or more rare external factors driving users to safe haven.




Are seashells not money/currency...lol  
they've also been used for thousands of years but unfortunately if you walk around the city with a handful in your pocket expecting to get lunch you're going to end the day hungry. Things change.

As far day to day menial human activities are concerned in 2016 (at least for myself) GOLD, SILVER, PLATINUM,  PALLADIUM, BRASS etc are not a currency, but a commodity. Sorry but Silver is not a system of money in general use in a particular country nor is it generally accepted or in use

The only people I know of that think of how much product they can buy using shiny metals are crackheads stealing copper cable.

You have to swap PM's for fiat to do anything useful. it's not a  fluid process. Commonplace activities like buying groceries, paying bills, etc are not possible with metals, how can it be a money?

Chainradar has charts. The difficulty chart is easier to read than the hashrate chart even though they are really measuring the same thing (just less noise in the former). The trend was down until early December but up since, both in line with price, though the recent acceleration in price has not yet been apparent in hash rate.

http://chainradar.com/xmr/chart

There are three tiers of existence in money (and honestly any abstract asset) which arises from nothing:  
  
I. Speculation  
II. Transactional economy  
III. Reserve status  
  
Any new object introduced to the world is not going to have *any* merchant support initially.  People are going to have to begin to speculate on them based on their superior qualities.  Eventually, if the asset is good enough, it can enter the second tier which involves people trading it for goods and services.  The value of the object will increase according to Metcalfe'a law as more and more people begin to believe the object has value, and see the network of things they can use it to interact with.  Eventually once enough people believe it, some major entities will begin to use it to back other abstract assets, like national fiat.  
  
This happens in time, but a successful speculation phase based off superior technology must come first, and myself and others are already thinking about the next steps towards the transactional tier that comes next.  
  
You should join us.

Starbucks doesn't take Gold/silver as payment...so does that mean GOLD and SILVER are not money/currency?

Gold and silver are money and a form of currency for thousands of years yet Starbucks doesn't take it for payment....lol

Please check your logic and argument and come back to discuss. Thanks  

Not to be pedanticand dig up a huge debate here.. but the traditionally understood definition of currency in modern lexicon is here:


I see how monero fits the properties of an electronic cash.  but the reality is- even less people use it than bitcoin
If Starbucks will outright refuse your sweet Moneroj 'currency' in exchange for a spiced pumpkin latte(because they don't know what a cringe signature is, and think a blockchain is something you erect in your backyard) perhaps what you have, isn't really currency..yet

Zcash despite the planned dev min and serious setup security problems is a much more credible threat than ETH for XMR right now.

I see how monero fits the properties of an electronic cash.  but the reality is- even less people use it than bitcoin
If Starbucks will outright refuse your sweet Moneroj 'currency' in exchange for a spiced pumpkin latte(because they don't know what a cringe signature is, and think a blockchain is something you erect in your backyard) perhaps what you have, isn't really currency..yet

Just like the biggest company in the world didn't exist in 1996 (Google), the biggest bank in the world, in 2036, probably doesn't exist today.

Lifespans of top companies are shrinking, according to an Innosight study of the S&P 500 Index:

61-year tenure for average firm in 1958 narrowed to 25 years in 1980—to 18 years now.

I didn't realise the hashrate wasn't trending stagnating/ trending downwards (or at least, not groing strongly, like ETH) -  My bad. Is there any decent resource with up to date charts showing historical data?

Hopefully that say is based somewhat on the technology.

Monero is far superior as a medium of exchange when it comes to defining its usage as PURE ELECTRONIC CASH (with all the properties of money as defined by monetary history).

currency
1.a system of money in general use in a particular country.
"the dollar was a strong currency"
synonyms:   money, legal tender, medium of exchange, cash, banknotes, notes, paper money, coins, coinage; More
2. the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use.
"the term gained wider currency after the turn of the century"
synonyms:   prevalence, circulation, dissemination, publicity, exposure; More

The rise in Ethereum has in my opinion as much to do with Bitcoin's problems than with Ethereum itself. The market is looking for an alternative to Bitcoin. People are looking for alternatives that do not have "the problem" https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/alternative-coin-to-bitcoin-without-the-problem-1388381. Ehtereum is not an alternative to Bitcoin, simply because it is designed to do something else entirely. It is Ethereum 1.0 not Bitcoin 2.0. Monero on the other hand does not have "the problem" and is designed from the ground up  as a possible replacement for Bitcoin, so it could be called a true Bitcoin 2.0 coin. The market of course will have the final say.

I don't see that as a competitive advantage for ETH relative to XMR.  All the things that make ETH valuable are actually impediments to fungible liquidity.  At the moment XMR is benefiting from BTC hedging on fear regarding blocksize controversy, and on diversification flows from ETH profit-takers.  But those effects will blow past as the events recede.  The long-term value proposition of XMR is currency, and is quite unrelated to that of ETH. They just aren't comparables. ETH is a platform, not a currency -- by design is profoundly ill-suited to use as a currency.  You don't buy stuff with CPU cycles.  You don't keep your savings in AWS units.  

I disagree on that point. What has been 'cloned' is a cryptographic primitive. Monero does not have a "mixer", so the design is entirely different. If anything what was created for ETH is closer to SDC than XMR (doubly-so once ETH switches to proof-of-stake).

However, I will agree on your broader point that if ETH grows sufficiently (say two orders of magnitude from where is now) then it will become the de facto blockchain platform on which everything else is built, and that will include privacy-preserving systems such as Monero.

That's a "big if" though. While ETH appears to be gaining momentum at the moment, the vast majority of systems that attempt to grow by two orders of magnitude stumble and fail at some point.


The hash rate on Monero has not been "dwindling" (and the other "cryptonote chains" don't matter), it has been quite stable. While there is a lag, if the price holds up where it is now the Monero hash rate will certainly increase a lot.

I don't see that as a competitive advantage for ETH relative to XMR.  All the things that make ETH valuable are actually impediments to fungible liquidity.  At the moment XMR is benefiting from BTC hedging on fear regarding blocksize controversy, and on diversification flows from ETH profit-takers.  But those effects will blow past as the events recede.  The long-term value proposition of XMR is currency, and is quite unrelated to that of ETH. They just aren't comparables.

ETH is a platform, not a currency -- by design is profoundly ill-suited to use as a currency.  You don't buy stuff with CPU cycles.  You don't keep your savings in AWS units.