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Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1563. (Read 3313576 times)

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
February 05, 2016, 03:43:22 AM
everything has been bubbling but XMR.... why is XMR such an ugly duckling....?

Shouldn't XMR be beating Dash... but Dash volume is respectable, XMR volume is heading into Megacoin, Quark territory, shameful.

Explain

I pretty much have the same question. Although I do hold a bit of hope for Monero. It has just always been in the back of my mind, just a feeling.

Meanwhile dashguy's wondering why Bitcoin Devs slam Evan's (genius?) tech, why they don't have a video game, and why their marketcap has stagnated....
legendary
Activity: 1639
Merit: 1006
February 05, 2016, 12:06:43 AM
everything has been bubbling but XMR.... why is XMR such an ugly duckling....?

Shouldn't XMR be beating Dash... but Dash volume is respectable, XMR volume is heading into Megacoin, Quark territory, shameful.

Explain
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
February 04, 2016, 10:45:34 PM
Better crypto market i.e. capital flowing into the space instead of a bunch of coins competing with each of other for the same scraps, each getting excited when it moves up a few spots on CMC, then disappointed when the pump ends and and some other coin becomes the favorite flavor of the day.

I totally agree that we're seeing a zero-sum churn. Litecoin bubbled last year. Now Ethereum. Before it was Bitshares. People are getting excited by nothing is really happening.  The coins are all jockeying for position and no new value is being created.

We are really waiting for a resurgence in cryptocurrency as a whole. Monero just needs to stay on the list and maintain reasonable liquidity and a reasonable economy. When the time comes (if it comes), then XMR will get what's coming to it.


Right so the question is what brings capital. Cryptocurrencies have 2 primary "offerings": 1) decentralized currency 2) trustless remittance.

In the short term, I see #2 being the most realistic use of the technology. Once banks figure out that their permissioned blockchains are useless, they will need to assess the capacity, strength, and offerings of the existing open networks. The will obviously be attracted to use bitcoin due to its incredible security (hashrate, nodecount), but they will be turned off by its transparency and lack of capacity. Due to marketing etc., they will probably research at least 3-4 other networks before coming to Monero, which offers both limitless capacity and transactional privacy, but doesn't have a very robust network.

Unfortunately for us moonshot dreamers, the use of a cryptocurrency network as remittance backbone does not require any change in valuation. I.e., if big mega bank group decided to use monero as its remittance backbone, they could all just agree that 1 monero  = 10 million USD for their own record keeping purposes. So when Bank A sends 1 monero to Bank B, Bank B's record keeper will just "oh yeah Bank A just sent us 10 million USD". Its all just a unit of account. What that unit of account represents is up to the ones using the unit of account.

The valuation would change, however, if they require a lot of resources - i.e., a lot of these units of account. Because thats what monero (or any cryptocurrency) is... an ability to record in the ledger. So perhaps if big mega banks remittance backbone requires lots and lots of actual blockchain use (A sent to B and then B shaved 10% and sent 90% to C and C sent to D yada yada yada).

Of course the first offering, as a decentralized currency, runs the hurdle of completely unrealistic implementation where it is actually needed. I remember reading it somewhere, that cryptocurrencies were developed in the countries that need it the least - countries with a relatively stable and/or functioning government issued currency system. The people that truly need a decentralized currency system are the ones in countries with whackadoodle governments meddling poorly with the monetary system. The question is, of course, how to get cryptocurrency infrastructure into these places.

but im just saying things people already know. I guess I like to see myself type? (the equivalent of hear myself speak).
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
February 04, 2016, 06:33:36 PM
Better crypto market i.e. capital flowing into the space instead of a bunch of coins competing with each of other for the same scraps, each getting excited when it moves up a few spots on CMC, then disappointed when the pump ends and and some other coin becomes the favorite flavor of the day.

I totally agree that we're seeing a zero-sum churn. Litecoin bubbled last year. Now Ethereum. Before it was Bitshares. People are getting excited by nothing is really happening.  The coins are all jockeying for position and no new value is being created.

We are really waiting for a resurgence in cryptocurrency as a whole. Monero just needs to stay on the list and maintain reasonable liquidity and a reasonable economy. When the time comes (if it comes), then XMR will get what's coming to it.
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
February 04, 2016, 12:49:53 PM
In NoodleDoodle's performance commit he noted a benchmark of 2.5ms/tx on i7-2600. That's 400 tx/sec on a 2011 desktop. A reasonably priced current-gen server (say dual-Xeon 10-core CPUs) is probably several times faster so close to 5K/sec, but I don't know the exact numbers. There is more optimization available still (we aren't using the most optimized elliptic curve asm library available from Bernstein for example, just his sort-of-optimized C library).

With the move to ringCT, it will probably be different (though some of the differences will offset, such as having fewer outputs/tx), and we will have to reevaluate.

Sweet!   Cool

When I tell people about this good news during my Monero evangelizing, how do I explain why our sig_ops are so much faster than Old Grandpa Bitcoin's?

As I understand it (not a cryptographer), there is some inherent performance benefit to the curve25119-based cryptography (or maybe to implementing it on real hardware), but I don't know the magnitude nor how close either implementation is to optimized enough for that to matter.

In reality I think raw signature verification performance is really one of the least important scalability concerns in practice, currently, and both implementations are reasonably optimized once libsecp256k1 is integrated into Bitcoin Core (already done, but I think not released yet).


In addition to any inherent ed25519/curve25519/EdDSA advantages, Bitcoin also presently has this "bytes hashed" problem that scales quadradically with size and number of sig_ops (or something; I've not studied it in depth). SW "fixes" this. I say "fixes" because it really doesn't solve the potential DoS problem with larger blocks at all as long as old style transactions are still allowed. Monero transactions (currently) do not have this issue; the bytes used for signature checking is only hashed once per Tx, no matter how many signatures there are.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
February 04, 2016, 08:19:22 AM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

The price will rise slowly when the Monero is get used more. But I do not hear big news about its usage in the traditional area.

Monero do not need users in order to rise, the only thing it needs is demand.
It is a controversial if heavy usage is a pain in the ass of bitcoin or an advantage (the majority of merchants just insta-dump btc).

Currently looks like nobody cares about monero: not much buying, not much selling either. There is no short positions (I have coins sitting on the minimum interest rates for some time and nobody borrows them in a week or so).

There is a need for a coin like Monero but looks like the right type of people have not found it yet, and I doubt they will find it from here.
Right type of people are entrepreneurs who can find the demand for Monero.
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
February 04, 2016, 03:08:05 AM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

The price will rise slowly when the Monero is get used more. But I do not hear big news about its usage in the traditional area.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
February 04, 2016, 01:07:46 AM

BTW tunnels of doom was the only game I ever played on it. Had to mail order it directly from TI.


(Sorry, last off topic reply).
 
My GOD!  I remember seeing that game in a magazine ad and dreaming of 3D dungeons thinking it was impossible, but they actually did it!  This is the first time I've ever seen the game in action.  If you have never programmed in TI BASIC before you have no idea what a monumental feat that is... Similar to Cryptonote, every single achievement was a triumph in recreating reality despite programming and technology limitations. 
 
Anyway, thanks for sharing that. 
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
February 04, 2016, 12:25:17 AM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

Better crypto market i.e. capital flowing into the space instead of a bunch of coins competing with each of other for the same scraps, each getting excited when it moves up a few spots on CMC, then disappointed when the pump ends and and some other coin becomes the favorite flavor of the day.

The whole thing is a bit too zero-sum at the moment. Each coin can claim to have various advantages over another and they are all correct to a point, so you mostly get churn, with maybe fundamentals driving some trends over a 1-2+ year timescale. Even that last point is questionable as Ethereum today is close to where Bitshares was a few years ago. Maybe that is fundamentals and relative potential playing out, or maybe just more churn. Hard to say.

Until more people and/or more money recognize the value of cryptocurrencies it will continue to be much the same.

Nevertheless Monero at #18 as I write this is a serious project that compares favorably with higher ranked coins (and one would be hard pressed to find similarly credible projects ranked lower) and seems undervalued to me relative to the peer group, so even in a churn-dominated environment, it can do okay. The GUI and other upcoming improvements can help unlock some of that value.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
February 03, 2016, 11:36:20 PM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

Pretty sure we're all thinking GUI then Marketing. Everything seems to be ontrack.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
February 03, 2016, 11:21:14 PM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

I am looking forward to $50 each with a warm smile.  I will buy a new car then so I can drive something who's windows roll up.  I might try to buy the actual car with Monero if we ever got that high.  
  
Past that, I expect $500 each by 2020.  That's when I can quit my job and travel.
  
Or were you looking for something more grounded in reality, like a jump in price to $2.30?
You will have to sell it for Bitcoin first which will drive its price up.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
February 03, 2016, 11:08:56 PM
...
A whole bunch of cool shit to help us derail the thread for awhile
...  

Yeah, It took me a month on that to make a sprite of an alligator animate across the screen. But I had a great time learning it. I think we all back then wanted to just program games. I swear the crap they push out today has no heart it's just eye candy and a complete waste of time.

BTW tunnels of doom was the only game I ever played on it. Had to mail order it directly from TI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhfQF9075NQ
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
February 03, 2016, 10:55:21 PM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?

I am looking forward to $50 each with a warm smile.  I will buy a new car then so I can drive something who's windows roll up.  I might try to buy the actual car with Monero if we ever got that high.  
  
Past that, I expect $500 each by 2020.  That's when I can quit my job and travel.
  
Or were you looking for something more grounded in reality, like a jump in price to $2.30?
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
February 03, 2016, 10:50:08 PM
what would you guys say that we're waiting for (in terms of a higher price)?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
February 03, 2016, 10:49:22 PM
Heuristic, me too!  I remember the voice module and how it could synthesize speech using some incredible wizardry.  
  
I programmed my first text adventures on that thing, and dreamed of being able to make games as complex as the NES.  
  
Anyway, I think that and the Apple 2 were among the moments when computing truly broke into the home.  The era of Windows 3.1 was when we really went mainstream.  Sometimes I get so caught up in the bleeding edge of what we're doing, I forget how amazing the journey we've already taken is.  
  
From bleeps and squeeps on a cassette tape 30 years ago to titanic self-contained financial networks that crisscross the globe using the Internet... And all I ultimately want is to recreate that feeling I had as a teenager first playing Wizardry V.  
  
Hmmm.... Hey, I know this train of thought post has taken us to a weird place but I just realized something.  My fascination with games like that and Cryptonote are very similar.  In that game (the Super NES version I played), the labyrinth itself was the main character, filled with puzzles, hallways, traps, and all sorts of fun bits to discover.  You actually felt like you were exploring something ancient and secret, even though you obviously were not.  
  
Learning about Monero and cryptocurrency shares many qualities of that experience: the Monero source code is the labyrinth itself, constantly shifting and filled with all sorts of tricks.  On a higher level, perhaps the final form of the source code is that labyrinth and the coders are intrepid explorers blazing new frontiers for us.  Meanwhile we are all learning about it as we go, and there's no end to the colorful characters that roam the halls.  

As well, there are other parallels.  The first games in the genre, including Wizardry V's predecessor, Wizardry I, all featured static and hard capped dungeon sizes.  (You could say their blocks were capped?).  
  
http://imgur.com/a/vgejg

Then Wizardry V came along and turned that formula on its head by introducing dynamic floor sizes that could be any dimensions the developers wanted:  

http://imgur.com/a/jjnJi

Anyway, here's hoping this is one maze that goes very deep.  I'm looking forward to exploring it with you all.  
  
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 501
February 03, 2016, 10:37:41 PM
Not sure if many folks on this thread follow the CryptoNote chess thread, but our anonymous GM (letsplayagame) just came out displaying an XMR donation address in his signature. He had hinted his affinity for Bitcoin before and more recently had added "privacy" in generic terms in his sig, but it is amazing to see him sport the XMR donation address now publicly.

Is that the dude from Team BBR that #REKT us last time?

Rumor has it he's some grand master type!   Cool


LOL no that was @boolberry, who is most likely not a Grand Master but will be flattered to read this. He did display tremendous skill in that XMR vs BBR Game 1 guiding Team BBR to a win.

@letsplayagame is the anonymous Grand Master who joined the forum and started this thread to play Chess against Bitcointalk. He also posts regularly on his twitter account https://twitter.com/chessbtc talking about Bitcoin and Monero. He decided to join Team XMR in Game 2 of XMR vs BBR series.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 03, 2016, 10:27:40 PM
Not sure if many folks on this thread follow the CryptoNote chess thread, but our anonymous GM (letsplayagame) just came out displaying an XMR donation address in his signature. He had hinted his affinity for Bitcoin before and more recently had added "privacy" in generic terms in his sig, but it is amazing to see him sport the XMR donation address now publicly.

Is that the dude from Team BBR that #REKT us last time?

Rumor has it he's some grand master type!   Cool

Can you make BTC bets on ICC yet?  Maybe the new Brave browser can help with that...
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 501
February 03, 2016, 10:08:29 PM
Not sure if many folks on this thread follow the CryptoNote chess thread, but our anonymous GM (letsplayagame) just came out displaying an XMR donation address in his signature. He had hinted his affinity for Bitcoin before and more recently had added "privacy" in generic terms in his sig, but it is amazing to see him sport the XMR donation address now publicly.


legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
February 03, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
This was my first.



Saved my programs on this.

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 03, 2016, 09:50:33 PM
First I am going to comment on the punched card vs the 256 KB Tandy XT. My experience with the punched card was in the mid to late 1970's where this technology was reaching the end of its useful life. The latest punched card standard was formulated in 1928 and together with the tabulating machine was the primary form of data processing for big business and governments until the 1960's when tabulating machines started to get replaced with mainframe computers. The relevant point here is how much data could one store on a punched card. Theoretically 120 bytes and many people quote 80 bytes; however due to the limitations of the then legacy equipment from the 1920's to 1960's the figure was closer to around 10 bytes. Now if we compare this with the 256 KB Tandy XT we have a factor of over 104 in data storage capacity alone. The computers from that era typically came with one or more 5.25in floppy drives and the floppy diskettes would each hold about 360 KB of data.  This difference in storage capacity alone is greater than the difference between 1 MB blocks in core and the 8 GB blocks proposed in XT for Bitcoin.

The next question is why is the ancient history highly relevant here? The reason is business models. While technology changes rapidly business models tend to remain static.  The key lesson from history is to avoid business models that are dependent upon technology staying still. This is why Diner's Club and even American Express form a very small percentage of the fiat payment networks today, yet in say the early 1960's they were the dominant players. Their payment card business models were based upon punched card and tabulating machine technology and started to run into trouble with the advent of computers such as the 256 KB Tandy XT let alone with today's technology.

It is here where we see the strength of Monero's adaptive blocksize technology. If the real cost of digital storage, bandwidth and computer processing power drops by a factor of say 104 (Punched card to 256 KB Tandy XT) then the cost of processing 50,000 TPS becomes in real terms the same as processing 5 TPS today. Bitcoin with the Lightning Network can easily become the Diner's Club of Crypto currency  (an early adopter that becomes obsoleted by changing technology) while Monero can easily become the VISA or MasterCard of Crypto currency (a later adopter that can adapt to changing technology). As a baby boomer in my late 50's I have very little interest in business models that have a very good chance of becoming obsolete in 10 - 20 years. I prefer instead business models that can adapt with technological change. So I choose Monero.

Good choice.  I am also betting on Monero to win the race to replace fiat (or more precisely, tie with for first with Bitcoin).

I remember being fascinated with punch cards (from the bank) in the early 80s.  It was Reagan's first term; I couldn't have been older than 5 or 6 at the time.    Smiley

My XT had a single 3.5" FDD.  But the wizards at Tandy managed to fit a desktop OS with all the goodies on it (undoubtedly influencing my lifelong intolerance of bloatware, as you now see in the blocksize debate).

So never mind the fact that of course the easy gains (low hanging fruit) in storage density are gone, and that the barriers to entering the field have gone up as fast as the price per byte has gone down.

Storage concerns have never been anywhere near the top of the list of reasons why shoveling Visa-like tps onto a blockchain's layer one is bad engineering.  Argumentum ad Seagate does nothing to address the problems and trade-offs with bandwidth/latency, decentralization, perverse incentives (wonky SPV mining, empty blocks), superlinear verification times, and (most importantly) contentious hard forks.

My problem with the 'Bitcoin is doomed and should die so Monero can/will succeed' idea is that it contradicts my investment thesis, wherein BTC and XMR are salt and pepper like complementary goods.

When you crank up the Bitcoin Obituary machine, part of me wonders how Monero can survive should Bitcoin fail to remain antifragile.   Cheesy
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