Author

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1693. (Read 3313576 times)

hero member
Activity: 900
Merit: 1014
advocate of a cryptographic attack on the globe
October 18, 2015, 11:56:22 PM
Introduction:  
Warning: This is a HUGE post, and if you reply to it and quote it, Smooth will likely delete your post.  Please don't do this!

 
As you may know, I didn't exactly roll a natural 18 under the Arithmatic stat: https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fgrk5/how_long_would_we_have_to_use_bitcoin_before_we/ctomj9y

Good find. Read this back in high school in the late 90s which got me into this stuff in the first place.

PS http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Bionomics/Extropians/HardyTribbleSilkRoad.html
The Digital Silk Road
by Norman Hardy ([email protected]) and Eric Dean Tribble ([email protected] Ph: 415 851 2582)
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
October 18, 2015, 11:45:55 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."

What makes you think Bitcoin has decline because of the lack of privacy that monero has?

Specific example?

Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.

It is funny how your description of your own inner monologue is pretty much the same as mine.

I feel the same way about mining. When I first learned about Bitcoin, it was a totally run by individuals, democratic, decentralized, p2p, etc. I was among those mining it and I felt that my role in the mining made me a true part of the system. It wasn't a bank or other regulated financial service, it was a piece of software you ran on your computer, and that's it. It was disruptive and totally unlike anything else current or previous, and exciting and appealing for that reason. Now the whole thing is run by big corporations in massive data centers (third parties to almost everyone) and subject to all manner of regulations under which you can maybe stay out of trouble if you are careful but will likely violate if you look at it the wrong way. Not so interesting, nor so different from other payment systems.

That transition represents an inherent loss of subjective value, which as rpietila points out is probably not unrelated to the decline in price.

The loss of fun is quite bad for something still an the early adopter phase.

Well see my quote on the S7 discussion  Grin Shocked Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 18, 2015, 10:19:04 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."

What makes you think Bitcoin has decline because of the lack of privacy that monero has?

Specific example?

Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.

It is funny how your description of your own inner monologue is pretty much the same as mine.

I feel the same way about mining. When I first learned about Bitcoin, it was a totally run by individuals, democratic, decentralized, p2p, etc. I was among those mining it and I felt that my role in the mining made me a true part of the system. It wasn't a bank or other regulated financial service, it was a piece of software you ran on your computer, and that's it. It was disruptive and totally unlike anything else current or previous, and exciting and appealing for that reason. Now the whole thing is run by big corporations in massive data centers (third parties to almost everyone) and subject to all manner of regulations under which you can maybe stay out of trouble if you are careful but will likely violate if you look at it the wrong way. Not so interesting, nor so different from other payment systems.

That transition represents an inherent loss of subjective value, which as rpietila points out is probably not unrelated to the decline in price.

The loss of fun is quite bad for something still an the early adopter phase.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 18, 2015, 10:01:18 PM
sorry this is a bit off topic but does anyone have any testnet XMR they can send me?

thanks
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 18, 2015, 08:20:26 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.


Either that or more likely people would just boycott a particular service that wants them to disclose their view keys and transact elsewhere?

If monero would become fully regulated, e.g. each online shop accepting monero needs to get your view key and personal data, than there is not much to boycott. Its already happening with bitcoin and bitlicence in usa.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/beware-bitlicense-new-yorks-virtual-currency-regulations-invade-privacy-and-hamper


True you can have multiple view keys.

So basically it would be the honor system that you reveal all of your view keys to regulatory agencies.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
October 18, 2015, 08:03:48 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.


Either that or more likely people would just boycott a particular service that wants them to disclose their view keys and transact elsewhere?

If monero would become fully regulated, e.g. each online shop accepting monero needs to get your view key and personal data, than there is not much to boycott. Its already happening with bitcoin and bitlicence in usa.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/beware-bitlicense-new-yorks-virtual-currency-regulations-invade-privacy-and-hamper
full member
Activity: 231
Merit: 100
October 18, 2015, 08:01:36 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.





Either that or more likely people would just boycott a particular service that wants them to disclose their view keys and transact elsewhere?

Shouldn't we see that in bitcion then? I mean, people keep using coinbase and all those other services that deny random transactions.

But XMRchina is right. You can have several view keys, if a service wants to see it.
full member
Activity: 122
Merit: 100
October 18, 2015, 07:39:06 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.





Either that or more likely people would just boycott a particular service that wants them to disclose their view keys and transact elsewhere?

Remember that having more than one view key is possible. You can have more than one account.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 18, 2015, 05:23:43 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.





Either that or more likely people would just boycott a particular service that wants them to disclose their view keys and transact elsewhere?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
October 18, 2015, 04:45:46 PM

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.

Now its just the beginning of bitcoin forensic companies, blockchain research and surveillance. It is  only going to get worse if bitcoin is going mainstream. Bitcion devs and community probably has already too much invested in bitcoin, as to go away from the transparency and mainstream push. They need to please regulators and investors.

If monero would be at the position of bitcoin, it would have to do same. It would have to please regulators. Even if feds or governments made mandatory to give up your view keys to them or to banks, then at least a random monero forensic company, research or online shop, would have much, much more difficult task of identifying your transactions in the blockchain.

But then off course, some people would not like to give up their view keys to anyone, and would move to  another new anon coin, and the circle would repeat it self.



legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 18, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."

What makes you think Bitcoin has decline because of the lack of privacy that monero has?

Specific example?

Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.

It is funny how your description of your own inner monologue is pretty much the same as mine.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
October 18, 2015, 04:25:09 PM
Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 

Great comment. I dug up a comment from reddit that's pretty attributable to this particular situation:

Quote
Any bitcoin transaction with a party that knows your identity leaks information that can be used to identify your activity, past and future, on the block chain. For example, if you transfer bitcoins to an online retailer, an exchange, or many of the other services that take customer identity information, you allow them to link that identity to your blockchain pseudonym, potentially revealing the other transactions that you are party to.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
October 18, 2015, 04:05:24 PM
Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.

So true, just look at the bitcointalk/reddit posts from 2011-2013, it was all about "anonymous instant internet money". The feeling has changed a lot since then, but since it's a slow continous change (trend being the correct word, risto is right) most users didn't realize they were basing their usage on a completely false promise.

Nothing has changed in Bitcoin of course, it's simply that the perception is becoming more accurate with respect to the actual characteristics.
 
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
October 18, 2015, 03:55:28 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."

What makes you think Bitcoin has decline because of the lack of privacy that monero has?

Specific example?

Trends are not specific examples. Despite technically knowing the facts (which have not changed), using Bitcoin in 2013 felt like "good, I am striking the controllers back and using my own decentralized money the way I want, and they cannot even know". Now it feels more like "nah, again I am touching this totally-monitored big brother system, which happens to be the best medium for this exchange since it is [enter BTC's advantages here]".

Using bitcoin is not fun (any more) due to lack of fungibility.

Using Monero is fun.

Using CK is __________

This is not by accident.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 18, 2015, 03:45:19 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."

What makes you think Bitcoin has decline because of the lack of privacy that monero has?

Specific example?
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
October 18, 2015, 02:32:11 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet

My cryptic text should be understood as:

"When I heard about and invested into Monero, I did not have any worries that the value of my much larger BTC stash would be affected. What happened, though, is that it has declined 60% since then, probably due to the very things that Monero fixes (anonymity, fungibility, blocksize). Also I never thought BTC would have caused silver price decline, but from hindsight it seems to be the case."
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
October 18, 2015, 02:00:52 PM
When I heard about Monero, I did not "worry" about Bitcoin.

(should have...  Roll Eyes )

Maybe in the long run, but we are not there yet
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 18, 2015, 10:02:46 AM
Quote
   16.29.3. "What is the "crypto phase change"?"
      - I'm normally skeptical of claims that a "singularity" is
         coming (nanotechnology being the usual place this is
         claimed, a la Vinge), but "phase changes" are more
         plausible. The effect of cheap printing was one such phase
         change, altering the connectivity of society and the
         dispersion of knowledge in a way that can best be described
         as a phase change. The effects of strong crypto, and the
         related ideas of digital cash, anonymous markets, etc., are
         likely to be similar.
      - transition
      - tipping factors, disgust by populace, runaway taxation
      + "leverage effect"
        - what Kelly called "the fax effect"
        - crypto use spreads, made more popular by common use
      - can nucleate in a small group...doesn't need mass
         acceptance
    16.29.4. "Can crypto anarchy be stopped?"
      + A goal is to get crypto widely enough deployed that it
         cannot then be stopped
        - to the point of no return, where the cost of withdrawing
           or banning a technology is simply too high (not always a
           guaranteee) 
 
After reading through this document I can see that not only was cryptocurrency not a random mistake, but even Monero was a dream long sought after by the greatest minds on the planet.  What does that mean?  It means to get ready, because this thing is slowly coming together in a big way.

heres a great post I found on reddit exactly about this:

Quote
The thing is that most Bitcoin infrastructure is running away from killer apps at warp speed, in the whole rush to be AML/KYC compliant. Enough influential people are actually relying on Bitcoin's traceability that the traceability is very unlikely to ever be fixed.
Anonymity and privacy are important in a LOT of places. They mean that a lot more people have access to economic exchange, over a lot more of the world, with a lot fewer gatekeepers saying who can buy and sell and what they can buy and sell. And that's the thing that makes crypto currencies interesting.
But a lot of the gatekeepers are legal authorities with considerable public support on their side. That means that any actually interesting new means of exchange is going to piss off the Man, period. And the well funded players in Bitcoin aren't interested in doing that.
Without the Silk Road et al, which were enabled by very limited anonymity, nobody except a few monetary cranks would ever have given a damn about Bitcoin. But Bitcoin is running away from that.
Furthermore, even in perfectly "legitimate" uses, fungibility is critical, and you don't get fungibility with a traceable currency. So Bitcoin is self-sabotaging even for the cases it's trying to address.
Basically Bitcoin is only covering applications that are already perfectly well served by fiat and banks, leaving all the actual crypto currency applications on the table, and sucking up into a giant Chicago-school delusional ball.
That leaves a vacuum for Monero and other privacy currencies to fill. Once the Bitcoin spying infrastructure is fully in place, a lot of people are going to realize they're unserved by Bitcoin.

These posts do a great deal to explain why so many OG Bitcoiners are excited about Monero.  You both get an A+ in Nerd History!   Cheesy

Here's your next reading assignment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom

Suggested essay topic: If Bitcoin and Monero are indeed Phase 1 and 2, is Ethereum Pretty GoodTM enough for Freidman's Phase 3 in the context of the following Szabo quote?

Quote
         Anybody who
         thinks they can flesh out a protocol in secret and then
         deploy it, full-blown and working, is in for a world of
         hurt.  For those who get their Pretty Good systems out
         there and used, there is vast potential for business growth
         -- think of the $trillions confiscated every year by
         governments around the world, for example." [Nick Szabo,
         1993-8-23] 

For extra credit, explain why or why not the cypherpunk conception of "crypto-anarchy" is distinct from the libertarian idea "radical capitalism."   Cool
legendary
Activity: 2744
Merit: 1288
October 18, 2015, 07:41:47 AM
Quote from: Oscar Wilde
Everyone has three lives. A public life, a private life, and a secret life.


Well, except us gamers, we have way more lives.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
October 18, 2015, 06:48:16 AM
Quote from: Oscar Wilde
Everyone has three lives. A public life, a private life, and a secret life.


difference between private and secret?  Grin

Your wife shares your private life, your mistress shares your secret one.
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