[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1746.

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: binaryFate on September 23, 2015, 07:51:02 AM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

Nope. Why? See following point.

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

You are forced by law to accept all notes.
Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case:
http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/

Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them.

Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself).

So if I choose not to accept USD as payment that is illegal?

I'm pretty sure you can choose if you want to accept USD or not.

But from the standpoint of accepting USD but not accepting other USD that has different serial number...then I see your point.

Hueristic

legendary

Activity: 3836

Merit: 4969

Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: smoothie on September 23, 2015, 02:26:11 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on September 23, 2015, 02:21:53 PM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

...

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize....

Very simply when BTC becomes mainstream and businesses accept it just like credit cards then the device that accepts the transaction will by law have a lookup to a blacklist.

It's so simple I can't believe I have to explain it. Not only that but there are even simpler ways for any government to enforce blacklisting on businesses. If they wished to do it to fiat they could simply by forcing businesses to use currency scanners.

If you believe this will never happen then that is your gamble, when it does happen and it will as history has shown government overreach is rampant and growing then those that protected themselves from it will be laughing all the way to away FROM the bank. Cheesy

FTFY

ROTFLMFAO!!!

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: Hueristic on September 23, 2015, 02:21:53 PM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

...

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize....

Very simply when BTC becomes mainstream and businesses accept it just like credit cards then the device that accepts the transaction will by law have a lookup to a blacklist.

It's so simple I can't believe I have to explain it. Not only that but there are even simpler ways for any government to enforce blacklisting on businesses. If they wished to do it to fiat they could simply by forcing businesses to use currency scanners.

If you believe this will never happen then that is your gamble, when it does happen and it will as history has shown government overreach is rampant and growing then those that protected themselves from it will be laughing all the way to away FROM the bank. Cheesy

FTFY

Hueristic

legendary

Activity: 3836

Merit: 4969

Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

...

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize....

Very simply when BTC becomes mainstream and businesses accept it just like credit cards then the device that accepts the transaction will by law have a lookup to a blacklist.

It's so simple I can't believe I have to explain it. Not only that but there are even simpler ways for any government to enforce blacklisting on businesses. If they wished to do it to fiat they could simply by forcing businesses to use currency scanners.

If you believe this will never happen then that is your gamble, when it does happen and it will as history has shown government overreach is rampant and growing then those that protected themselves from it will be laughing all the way to the bank. Cheesy

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1491

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

I think bitcoin's fungibility is a much smaller issue than people in this thread are led to believe.

please then explain how BTC-e could blacklist coins stolen from the dark market called Evolution?

Better yet, how about if that same thief sold you coins for fiat or something of value (hard asset)?

And then when you went to exchange those bitcoins for fiat or other goods the merchant or exchange tells you that those coins are blacklisted and are not accepted here (hopefully the return the coins to you).

I'm pretty sure it is NOT a "much smaller issue" than people in this thread are led to believe.

Undead-Fobos

newbie

Activity: 8

Merit: 0

I need help!
When you open the wallet writes:

2015-Sep-23 23:44:30.742686 bitmonero v0.8.8.6-release
2015-Sep-23 23:44:30.748687 Module folder: bitmonerod.exe
2015-Sep-23 23:44:30.751687 Initializing P2P server...
2015-Sep-23 23:44:39.120166 ERROR C:/bitmonero/src/p2p/net_node.inl:128 Exception at [node_server::init_config], what=input stream error
2015-Sep-23 23:44:39.121166 ERROR C:/bitmonero/src/p2p/net_node.inl:289 Failed to init config.
2015-Sep-23 23:44:39.121166 ERROR C:/bitmonero/src/daemon/daemon.cpp:239 Failed to initialize P2P server.
2015-Sep-23 23:44:39.121166 Mining has been stopped, 0 finished

binaryFate

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1012

Still wild and free

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

See, the problem with your logic, is that you're only looking at it one way.

There's no central authority to enforce laws saying "you must accept all bitcoins". Similarly, there is no central authority saying "You can't accept these bitcoins".

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize.

I think you miss the point, in that you apply a view inehrited of "good old" centralized systems, and believe there should be a ruling of some sort or at least a general consensus on this issue to actually endanger fungibility.

Fact: Some coins are already less (or more) valuable than others, without anybody ruling it should be the case. See also joinmarket. How do you reconcile that these facts exist, with your current view?

I'll tell you why:
In a decentralized system, you don't need people to "agree" to enforce (or weaken) fungibility.
Everybody is free to apply its own judgement. Its a judgement from the crowd to the crowd.
Everybody is potentially under social pressure, as when btc-e froze that 1M$ that came from the darmarket theft: everybody could know the taint: btc-e decided that it was better for them, in the clear view of all, to block those coins rather than allowing trades.

On a side note, what governement and tax authorities can do better than blacklisting is whitelisting. Or even easier, asking you to declare the origin of your crypto assets, then checking that blockchain observations don't contradict your declarations.

akaman

sr. member

Activity: 247

Merit: 250

Quote from: shanem on September 23, 2015, 11:06:46 AM

XMR below 0.002 is a great buy. I think that this is just a flash crash and XMR will consolidate at 0.002 support.

That was a great opportunity! I'm quite pissed I missed the fun action... There's still plenty of cheap XMR to be had though. I'm guessing XMR will hover at around 202-205 the rest of the day.

shanem

legendary

Activity: 1344

Merit: 1000

XMR below 0.002 is a great buy. I think that this is just a flash crash and XMR will consolidate at 0.002 support.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

Trip Report

I just purchased Monero with fiat using AltQuick for the first time. https://www.altquick.co/buy-2.php

The liquidity usually isn't great near the market price and they charge 2%. But you do get to use old fashioned cash to buy newfangled cash. Also the way I was purchasing monero with btc cost me at least 1.25% so not bad for me.

1) select an order, all they require is an email address
2) deposit cash in seller's account
3) scan receipt and send to the AltQuick link.
4) wait a few hours to receive your fungible fun.

I now await the delivery of mine. They say within 3 hrs.

kazuki49

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 10:18:41 AM

Quote from: binaryFate on September 23, 2015, 07:51:02 AM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

Nope. Why? See following point.

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

You are forced by law to accept all notes.
Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case:
http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/

Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them.

Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself).

See, the problem with your logic, is that you're only looking at it one way.

There's no central authority to enforce laws saying "you must accept all bitcoins". Similarly, there is no central authority saying "You can't accept these bitcoins".

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize.

Quote

Coinbase closing accounts because it notices people gamble isn't worrying to you?

Nope, and I can assure you that the VAST majority of the world doesn't care either. It doesn't matter whether it's "right" to care or not; what matters is whether people ACTUALLY cares.

You don't get it, you think every player is good, some WILL enforce all kinds of weird blacklists and since there is no law (yet) you can't do anything about it, thats where live the danger, bitcoin has no future as transfer of wealth.

futureofbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Quote from: binaryFate on September 23, 2015, 07:51:02 AM

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

Nope. Why? See following point.

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

You are forced by law to accept all notes.
Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case:
http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/

Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them.

Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself).

See, the problem with your logic, is that you're only looking at it one way.

There's no central authority to enforce laws saying "you must accept all bitcoins". Similarly, there is no central authority saying "You can't accept these bitcoins".

How is blacklisting of coins going to be enforced? It won't be. People can't even agree on the blocksize.

Quote

Coinbase closing accounts because it notices people gamble isn't worrying to you?

Nope, and I can assure you that the VAST majority of the world doesn't care either. It doesn't matter whether it's "right" to care or not; what matters is whether people ACTUALLY cares.

canth

legendary

Activity: 1442

Merit: 1001

Quote from: smoothie on September 22, 2015, 10:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eastwind on September 22, 2015, 04:09:38 AM

Quote from: Andretti83 on September 22, 2015, 04:04:29 AM

I think the most convincing example of fungability necessity for me was when some bitcoin exchange did not accept bitcoins from someone, because allegedly those bitcoins was connected to some dark market activity.

It's not like money should be fungible for criminal operations, but its a good example when some bitcoins != usual bitcoins. This is impossible with monero.

But those coins can go to mixer and come out a different ones.

In the end someone gets screwed even if those coins go to a mixer. The person that gets the tainted coins will have crap luck trying to spend them should sites reject them based on them being tainted.

If someone doesn't accept tainted coins but others do that'll make a market where 'clean' coins go for higher prices and 'dirty' coins go for lower prices. Arbitragers who don't care about fungibility due to geographic location or use case will tighten the market. While that's not a good thing for Bitcoin, I don't see it as a tremendous problem for it to overcome. Don't get me wrong - fungibility is important, I just see that the markets will sort some of these issues out.

Privacy on the other hand can't be solved by market solutions, at least not ones that I'm aware of.

dEBRUYNE

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1141

Quote from: smoothie on September 22, 2015, 10:38:53 PM

Quote from: owm123 on September 22, 2015, 01:39:27 AM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on September 22, 2015, 01:29:55 AM

Quote from: chennan on September 21, 2015, 11:16:19 PM

... I feel like a majority of the public (sadly) don't and wouldn't really care if their transactions are public...

They will certainly care when merchants stop accepting their non-fungible bitcoins because some algorithm determines they're tainted. Privacy is hardly the issue.

Money that isn't fungible will eventually cannibalize itself.

It hasnt stopped bitcoin to be #1 cryptocurrency. And most people even dont know what fungability means. I myself, for example, have never heard about such a term before getting interested in crypto. Good luck expalining this to people who just want to use crypto, rather than go and read bitcointalk forums, or r/monero or any other such website.

Just because they don't know the word or never hear it is irrelevant as it is all around us everyday. If people accept your fiat paper in a fungible manner (they don't care where it came from) it does matter if one day you went to the grocery store and because your fiat paper has certain serial number on them (making them tainted) they say "sorry sir, we can't accept your money as it was tied to a murder". Many people, including myself, would be pissed and lose faith in the currency if that happened over and over and you cant spend your tainted currency anywhere.

People understand fungibility when it disallows them to spend their currency. The word does not matter and neither does the fact that people don't know the word...they know "I want to spend my fiat/currency and if not I will blow a gasket and lose faith in using that currency".

In addition: https://blog.blocktrail.com/2015/07/announcing-blocktrail-mint-fresh-bitcoin-delivered-from-the-mines/

Furthermore, they also "tag" your transactions already. See for example -> https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/address/14CYLszcPs195hvZzjsgU5kYgy4QkiN9Vv (credits to dnaleor)

binaryFate

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1012

Still wild and free

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

I think bitcoin's fungibility is a much smaller issue than people in this thread are led to believe.

Coinbase closing accounts because it notices people gamble isn't worrying to you?

Btc-e blocking and seizing the funds that were known (despite some mixing) to come from a darkmarket theft isn't worrying to you?

The broadly-advertised way to provide privacy and fungibility to Bitcoin: the "coinjoin" market, where you pay to clean your coins^[1] and get paid for clean ones, breaking badly the very definition of fungibility. That isn't worrying to you?

If you know how Bitcoin works, you know there is no reason for this list not to expand in the future. We're not talking LE yet, because they're (still) lagging behind in terms of knowledge and know how.
Heck, even zhoutong got caught recently with funds from the Bitcoinica theft. At that time everybody was screaming "private, anonymous internet money!", now we just improved the tools to analyze the blockchain. Bitcoin hasn't changed at all; all this could have been foreseen! But certainly not by people who, by then, gave the same kind of delusional remark as your remark above.

^[1] In fact you're likely to end up with coins that are more tainted that your original ones. All the bad guys will be there.

binaryFate

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1012

Still wild and free

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

Nope. Why? See following point.

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

You are forced by law to accept all notes.
Otherwise it would break fungibility. This has been the case all over the world in various financial systems, since this famous case:
http://www.paybits.net/blog/why-fungibility-matters/

Fungibility of money can be enforced by law only in a centralized monetary system. Bitcoin isn't centralized, there is nobody enforcing fungibility by law. It's possible for everyone to define their own rules, analyse and trace everything they wish, point the fingers to coins, transactions and merchants accepting or refusing them.

Thus, in a decentralized monetary system the only way to have fungibility is through privacy. (It applies to the physical world as well: if all gold historical ownership was known to everyone - with a simple internet connection! - gold fungibility would be broken instantly. Its fungibility comes from that it doesn't convey its own history with itself).

obit33

sr. member

Activity: 514

Merit: 258

Quote from: futureofbitcoin on September 23, 2015, 07:28:29 AM

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

I think bitcoin's fungibility is a much smaller issue than people in this thread are led to believe.

don't think so, when one uses bitcoins it always is 'registered' in the network, these bitcoins can be blaclisted from a distance the moment they're being used, even before they are used... not so with paper currency where use isn't automatically registered (aka, the serial number isn't automatically scanned and registered somewhere)...

futureofbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Does USD have fungibility problems? CAD? EUR? JPY? RMB?

They have serial numbers on them. Theoretically you can say "this serial number is now worthless". But they are working currencies. People trust them.

I think bitcoin's fungibility is a much smaller issue than people in this thread are led to believe.

chennan

legendary

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1004

Quote from: smoothie on September 22, 2015, 10:38:53 PM

Quote from: owm123 on September 22, 2015, 01:39:27 AM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on September 22, 2015, 01:29:55 AM

Quote from: chennan on September 21, 2015, 11:16:19 PM

... I feel like a majority of the public (sadly) don't and wouldn't really care if their transactions are public...

They will certainly care when merchants stop accepting their non-fungible bitcoins because some algorithm determines they're tainted. Privacy is hardly the issue.

Money that isn't fungible will eventually cannibalize itself.

It hasnt stopped bitcoin to be #1 cryptocurrency. And most people even dont know what fungability means. I myself, for example, have never heard about such a term before getting interested in crypto. Good luck expalining this to people who just want to use crypto, rather than go and read bitcointalk forums, or r/monero or any other such website.

Just because they don't know the word or never hear it is irrelevant as it is all around us everyday. If people accept your fiat paper in a fungible manner (they don't care where it came from) it does matter if one day you went to the grocery store and because your fiat paper has certain serial number on them (making them tainted) they say "sorry sir, we can't accept your money as it was tied to a murder". Many people, including myself, would be pissed and lose faith in the currency if that happened over and over and you cant spend your tainted currency anywhere.

People understand fungibility when it disallows them to spend their currency. The word does not matter and neither does the fact that people don't know the word...they know "I want to spend my fiat/currency and if not I will blow a gasket and lose faith in using that currency".

Do banks still have those "booby trap" bags that hold money in case a robber comes in to steal money, the bag will like explode ink all over the bills when the robber pulls them out of the bag when he got home? I can't remember if they still do that or not, but that is the closest example in this case to coins being tainted. And when you see that red ink splatter on the note, no one will accept the bill itself and have lost faith that they will be able to redeem that dollar for any goods or service... Same applies to Bitcoin in some way or another... The block chain is like a built in "booby trap" for sketchy dealings or people stealing coins.

nioc

legendary

Activity: 1624

Merit: 1008

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on September 20, 2015, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on September 18, 2015, 10:35:16 AM

Quote from: nioc on September 18, 2015, 06:27:50 AM

Quote from: Bassica on September 18, 2015, 05:05:46 AM

Quote from: ArticMine on September 17, 2015, 11:22:38 PM

Quote from: generalizethis on September 17, 2015, 11:00:28 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on September 17, 2015, 10:42:04 PM

My take is that the price of Monero will be driven by the long term fundamentals rather than by traders who buy and sell, at a profit or loss, on a 10% spread.

The first indicator will be the market response to the updated official tagged binaries when they come out.

Weird if it happened the same week CK is officially released. What is the estimate on the binaries?

The timetable is here: https://forum.getmonero.org/4/academic-and-technical/303/a-formal-approach-towards-better-hard-fork-management

We'll have to wait a little longer though:
http://fpaste.org/268812/44257030/

"10:13 <@fluffypony> no, we're currently in review-hardfork-code-so-we-dont-break-everything-mode"

I'm still not clear on this.

So the hardfork code is not quite ready. Does it need to be ready for the new binaries to be released?

Please see below

Yes it has to be ready before the new binaries will be released. It is ready though, it only needs to be reviewed (which I think MoneroMooo is doing). My guess is that it won't take that long, but you never know! Soon™

Furthermore, read the last line -> < moneromooo> I've not looked at this since last weekend though. I have minor extra changes, and I guess I will PR that tomorrow. :-)

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/pull/405

I have no idea if this finalizes the "review" though, but at least it's progress :-P

Pull request 405 just merged into master

Quote from: nakaone on September 22, 2015, 04:42:06 PM

... but nothing is so oddly priced as monero.

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1746. (Read 3313576 times)