[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 277.

DaveyJones

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveyJones on May 30, 2018, 06:44:59 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Globb0 on May 30, 2018, 05:40:52 AM

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

Thats not quite how it works, devs code thats right, but there is always back and forth with the community through different channels and plenty of people talking to each other, so if you wanted you could join this discussions too, in the github issues for example.

In case of the PoW Fork it also was a whole different scenario if you read the monero whitepaper - the whitepaper states "that monero should have an egalitarian proof of work" so it's kinda the social contract that should be "obeyed". So CPU and GPU's are egalitarian as everyone who owns a computer has one, meanwhile not everyone owns ASIC's and they also have rather small batches that is far from commodisation and especially players like Bitmain showed in the past that they mine their tech first and dominate PoWs before giving it to the public...

tl;dr PoW change was an obvious/essential move as "egalitarian" is part of the social contract

garytheasshole

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Chosŏn Minjujuŭi Inmin Konghwaguk

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveyJones on May 30, 2018, 06:44:59 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Globb0 on May 30, 2018, 05:40:52 AM

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/blob/master/whitepaper/whitepaper_annotated.pdf

Scroll down to 2.2 The Proof-of-Work function
And yes, hopefully there will be default decisions like this in the future, it shouldn't even be up for debate if we should embrace asics or not, I see this as a patch rather than a game changer.

Febo

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveyJones on May 30, 2018, 01:22:34 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community

Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?

There was a lot of talks about mining in last years. Github, reddit this forum. When you have ideas you should just tell them. Github is main place for you.

Quote from: ?? on ??

So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone?

Be the developer. Be active on any questions that interest you and reply with your better suggestion. That is only way. No one will hear you if you will not say.

DaveyJones

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Activity: 768

Merit: 505

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Globb0 on May 30, 2018, 05:40:52 AM

We voted not to include you in the vote

Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )

tokeweed

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Life, Love and Laughter...

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DaveyJones on May 30, 2018, 01:22:34 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community

Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?

It depends on how much coins your wallet holds. If it isn't high enough, you don't get to be invited in the lodge and be taught the secret hand shake by the Grand Pony himself.

I too wasn't able to get in the lodge, but I had enough to be invited in the front yard and was taught the secret fist bump.

Globb0

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Free spirit

We voted not to include you in the vote

DaveyJones

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community

smooth

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Quote from: cAPSLOCK on May 29, 2018, 08:28:10 AM

In his recent report (can be found on reddit) Dr. Noether talks about the implementation of bulletproofs and how this might present a need for Monero to make changes to it's fee structure so the chain is not abused.

Which Dr. Noether? Wink

Anyway, the situation with BP is a bit different: BP are writing relatively little data, but imposing a (relatively) high cost on all nodes to verify the transactions. It is a bit like smart contracts and gas, but of course a narrower specific case.

Writing a lot of data to the chain (for example because you want to store your family photos for all time and are willing to pay a one-time fee for the privilege) is another side of the issue, and one that very few blockchains deal with all that well.

On the price speculation side, interesting moves today with cryptos in line with safe haven assets after the Italian melt down and associated Euro risk repricing. For the most part of the past couple of years cryptos have been behaving as a risk asset, not a safe haven.

cAPSLOCK

legendary

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Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!

I can;t help but notice the same pattern we have seen for SO long in the price action for Monero...

A good flurry of buying, or even a big single purchase at market, and then a giant dump back to the floor from where we rose.

The last 24 hours on the 4 hour candle illustrates this perfectly.

Febo

legendary

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Quote from: Billy Bunter on May 28, 2018, 07:00:35 PM

With regard to Tari, I understand the details of this project have still to be finalized and speculation on it is premature. That said, what I've read so far is that Tari is to 'built on top fo Monero' which has been taken to mean that Tari will be merged mined alongside Monero. In other words, that Tari will benefit from the security that the Monero network offers (should Monero miners decide to implement it).

Question: does Tari need permission from the Monero community to do this? If Tari wasn't being led by FP would this be an issue for the Monero community? Is there any cost to Monero from merge mining Tari? Is there any benefit to Monero from merge mining Tari?

Why, in other words, should the Monero community agree to this (assuming they have a say in the matter)? I don't have a position on it, just wondering if there are opposing perspectives on the issue.

That would be same as if Poloniex would need a permission of someone to list Monero. Or you would need someone's permission to use Monero or cake wallet would need permission of someone to make their wallet.

Those that will merge mine will I guess get tari. that will be their reason why they do it.

Benefit of monero blockchain is that monero blockchain will get more used. There will be more transactions and blocks more full and bigger and that will make transactions cheaper. More transactions or Monero being more used will of course increase blockchain.

Quote from: Billy Bunter on May 29, 2018, 12:11:09 PM

Good reply. But isn't there a difference between the Monero network being used (as in Tari) and Monero (the currency) being used?

Why and how. Monero transaction only works one way and is same for all. All who use it need to follow protocol. If you don't then your transaction will not be validated.

Billy Bunter

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Quote from: cAPSLOCK on May 29, 2018, 08:28:10 AM

Quote from: Billy Bunter on May 28, 2018, 07:00:35 PM

With regard to Tari, I understand the details of this project have still to be finalized and speculation on it is premature. That said, what I've read so far is that Tari is to 'built on top fo Monero' which has been taken to mean that Tari will be merged mined alongside Monero. In other words, that Tari will benefit from the security that the Monero network offers (should Monero miners decide to implement it).

Question: does Tari need permission from the Monero community to do this? If Tari wasn't being led by FP would this be an issue for the Monero community? Is there any cost to Monero from merge mining Tari? Is there any benefit to Monero from merge mining Tari?

Why, in other words, should the Monero community agree to this (assuming they have a say in the matter)? I don't have a position on it, just wondering if there are opposing perspectives on the issue.

Since Monero is a permissionless blockchain (in other words there are no limits as to who can use it, mine it, or validate it) you would be right the community does not really have a "say" in the matter. At least insofar as whether or not a L2 solution can be built atop, and use the blockchain. This is also true with Counterparty, Lightning, and Eltoo on the BTC blockchain.

On the other hand fees are built into a blockchain to stop the possible abuse. In his recent report (can be found on reddit) Dr. Noether talks about the implementation of bulletproofs and how this might present a need for Monero to make changes to it's fee structure so the chain is not abused. So if Tari is sucessful enough to be writing tons of data to the L1 chain we might, as a community, need to talk about what fees look like.

IMO, this is a problem we want to have as it means Monero is being used.

Good reply. But isn't there a difference between the Monero network being used (as in Tari) and Monero (the currency) being used?

mnemonicsoup

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Aminorex, what do you think about the current situation? I know some folks who were calm in jan/feb but are a little worried now.

Shnikes101

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Quote from: cAPSLOCK on May 29, 2018, 08:28:10 AM

Quote from: Billy Bunter on May 28, 2018, 07:00:35 PM

With regard to Tari, I understand the details of this project have still to be finalized and speculation on it is premature. That said, what I've read so far is that Tari is to 'built on top fo Monero' which has been taken to mean that Tari will be merged mined alongside Monero. In other words, that Tari will benefit from the security that the Monero network offers (should Monero miners decide to implement it).

Question: does Tari need permission from the Monero community to do this? If Tari wasn't being led by FP would this be an issue for the Monero community? Is there any cost to Monero from merge mining Tari? Is there any benefit to Monero from merge mining Tari?

Why, in other words, should the Monero community agree to this (assuming they have a say in the matter)? I don't have a position on it, just wondering if there are opposing perspectives on the issue.

Since Monero is a permissionless blockchain (in other words there are no limits as to who can use it, mine it, or validate it) you would be right the community does not really have a "say" in the matter. At least insofar as whether or not a L2 solution can be built atop, and use the blockchain. This is also true with Counterparty, Lightning, and Eltoo on the BTC blockchain.

On the other hand fees are built into a blockchain to stop the possible abuse. In his recent report (can be found on reddit) Dr. Noether talks about the implementation of bulletproofs and how this might present a need for Monero to make changes to it's fee structure so the chain is not abused. So if Tari is sucessful enough to be writing tons of data to the L1 chain we might, as a community, need to talk about what fees look like.

IMO, this is a problem we want to have as it means Monero is being used.

Solid post. I'm out of merit otherwise would be showering you.

Love to see a coin that is actually used for its intended purpose. I know it's not possible but for me this goes back to someone's thought here of how interesting it would be to see transactions not including to/from exchange wallets. Compare that to other coins to potentially see what coins are truly being used for their intended purpose.

One can hope that eventually actual use/use case should rid us of most of the current useless alts.

Haladay

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Quote from: pönde on May 29, 2018, 02:55:05 AM

Yea I am worried too. The Bitcoin decline started at the end of last year when Bitcoin futures were taken in use. Futures can be used to manipulate gold, oil, silver, fiat, wheat and what ever, so why not crypto. The Futures do not bring any money to the commodity they represent, so no wonder that happens.

When the Bitcoin has declined more than the alts have been able to increase, they have lost too.

So what do you think what the Bitcoin futures have to do with the decline?

Well, this is a hard question. Bitcoin futures seem to affect the whole market, not only BTC. Until now, I couldn't understand if it's good or bad for the environment. We will get this in the second half of this year.

Monero is under stress as well.

cAPSLOCK

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Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!

Quote from: Billy Bunter on May 28, 2018, 07:00:35 PM

With regard to Tari, I understand the details of this project have still to be finalized and speculation on it is premature. That said, what I've read so far is that Tari is to 'built on top fo Monero' which has been taken to mean that Tari will be merged mined alongside Monero. In other words, that Tari will benefit from the security that the Monero network offers (should Monero miners decide to implement it).

Question: does Tari need permission from the Monero community to do this? If Tari wasn't being led by FP would this be an issue for the Monero community? Is there any cost to Monero from merge mining Tari? Is there any benefit to Monero from merge mining Tari?

Why, in other words, should the Monero community agree to this (assuming they have a say in the matter)? I don't have a position on it, just wondering if there are opposing perspectives on the issue.

Since Monero is a permissionless blockchain (in other words there are no limits as to who can use it, mine it, or validate it) you would be right the community does not really have a "say" in the matter. At least insofar as whether or not a L2 solution can be built atop, and use the blockchain. This is also true with Counterparty, Lightning, and Eltoo on the BTC blockchain.

On the other hand fees are built into a blockchain to stop the possible abuse. In his recent report (can be found on reddit) Dr. Noether talks about the implementation of bulletproofs and how this might present a need for Monero to make changes to it's fee structure so the chain is not abused. So if Tari is sucessful enough to be writing tons of data to the L1 chain we might, as a community, need to talk about what fees look like.

IMO, this is a problem we want to have as it means Monero is being used.

Whtwabbit

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Quote from: mnemonicsoup on May 29, 2018, 04:35:23 AM

If they bet on Bitcoin to drop (short Futures) and dump a little BTC right on time, they can make the Futures a self for filling prophecy, no?

It does look like manipulation is happening:

This is interesting, 2x 666 high and low
Bitcoin high "19" "666"
(Disclaimer: I am a coincidence theorist)

Globb0

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Free spirit

Consecutive green hourlies. Cheesy

CryptoPH

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<3 Crypto

Quote from: tokeweed on May 29, 2018, 06:20:11 AM

^ But notice how the volatility is tightening up. And that 'self fulfilling prophecy' (or the current predictability) could stop happening over and over if the rest of the market start exploiting it, if that makes any sense.

Indeed, though tightening volatility may result to change in directions (up or down). This takes huge volume from whales or institutional investors to lift-up the trend.
Oh well, I'm talking about BTC again. But I guess that should be able to lift-up XMR prices too. Grin

tokeweed

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^ But notice how the volatility is tightening up. And that 'self fulfilling prophecy' (or the current predictability) could stop happening over and over if the rest of the market start exploiting it, if that makes any sense.

CryptoPH

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<3 Crypto

Quote from: mnemonicsoup on May 29, 2018, 04:35:23 AM

If they bet on Bitcoin to drop (short Futures) and dump a little BTC right on time, they can make the Futures a self for filling prophecy, no?

It does look like manipulation is happening:

Wow, seriously! Cool

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 277. (Read 3314316 times)