I choice DRK because now DRK to the moon
Price now 0.025. Amazing.
Topic: XMR vs DRK - page 60. (Read 69755 times)
It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.
Perhaps he thought it's better to make sybil attacks harder. It's basically free to launch as many full nodes as required.
He may have thought that (I'm not sure I buy it) but it doesn't work, because there is still no irrevocable cost incurred for bad behavior. If masternodes are profitable then the bad ones are more profitable as the good ones. In a competitive market this will mean that only the bad ones are profitable.
The argument about "losing the value of your coins" doesn't work because it make a few false assumptions including that cheating leads to total collapse and the inability to hedge with derivatives. Both of these and certainly the second only apply in an immature cryptocurrency toy, not in a scaled up system.
Are you talking about DDoS attacks?
No I'm talking about masternode spying.
Ok. Let's assume DRK/DASH gets big, and has a value of $100. (Just an arbitrary number, way below a number where a business model that tries to spy information could be profitable.)
5,000 masternodes, 60% of the block reward goes to masternodes (assume year is 2016), block reward = 5 DRK, 17,280 blocks/month => each masternode earns 10 DRK/month => $1,000 / month.
So, the starting point is $1,000 / month for each masternode, and every node is honest. Also let's assume $100 / month for hosting expenses. How will the honest nodes become unprofitable when some of them start turning dishonest?
Also, what is this data that is spied?
And note, I'm not trying to confront/challenge your predictions, I'd just like to see it from all the angles.
Let's assume hypothetically that holding DRK is riskless. In that case you have a riskless investment that has a return on equity of about 10%. Since that is obviously absurd, something must be wrong with this analysis.
It's often hard to argue with people about ponzi schemes because it seems like it should work and proving that it won't is difficult because we don't know the exact mechanism of failure in advance.
It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.
Perhaps he thought it's better to make sybil attacks harder. It's basically free to launch as many full nodes as required.
He may have thought that (I'm not sure I buy it) but it doesn't work, because there is still no irrevocable cost incurred for bad behavior. If masternodes are profitable then the bad ones are more profitable as the good ones. In a competitive market this will mean that only the bad ones are profitable.
The argument about "losing the value of your coins" doesn't work because it make a few false assumptions including that cheating leads to total collapse and the inability to hedge with derivatives. Both of these and certainly the second only apply in an immature cryptocurrency toy, not in a scaled up system.
Are you talking about DDoS attacks?
No I'm talking about masternode spying.
Ok. Let's assume DRK/DASH gets big, and has a value of $100. (Just an arbitrary number, way below a number where a business model that tries to spy information could be profitable.)
5,000 masternodes, 60% of the block reward goes to masternodes (assume year is 2016), block reward = 5 DRK, 17,280 blocks/month => each masternode earns 10 DRK/month => $1,000 / month.
So, the starting point is $1,000 / month for each masternode, and every node is honest. Also let's assume $100 / month for hosting expenses. How will the honest nodes become unprofitable when some of them start turning dishonest?
Also, what is this data that is spied?
And note, I'm not trying to confront/challenge your predictions, I'd just like to see it from all the angles.
I'm going to bed now but it would be awesome if I had something interesting to read when I wake up. *wink*
1. Have you reviewed these 3rd party wallets yourself for malicious code, if so which ones?
No, I use the command line. I also would be happy to trust MyMonero which is run by one of the same developers as the coin itself, though in practice I don't use it.
Quote
2. During your review, why didn't you integrate some of the GUI code back to Monero wallet so people can use a mouse?
n/a (see above), besides we are following the development plan which puts an official GUI farther out and being based on other core improvements being made first.
Quote
3. Regarding the marketing graphic, this has no timescales on it or prerequisite tasks, critical path etc. Are you going to provide these or is it just 'finger in the air stuff'?
We give some indications on particular items when we have good visibility, usually in the missives (now podcast), sometimes in forum posts.
Last week we said that the first database builds would be about a week, that has slipped a bit (you can still use it if you can build from source), but is still expected "soon"
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Fluffypony, can you confirm whether a double spend is possible in Monero?
with 51% of hashrate is possible, same as bitcoin.
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her wallet in masternode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
In short, no, that is not equivalent.
You can review or compile the open source wallet yourself, so it is not trusted anything.
so if I want to use a mouse with Monero I need to learn to code and compile first, *before* getting the trusted third party wallet which I then have to review for malicious code.
No, as I explained it is not a trusted third party wallet if you are reviewing and compiling the code yourself. You have a choice of that or trusting some third parties (such as a Monero core developer who runs MyMonero for example, or exchanges, or reputable community members). I'm pretty sure that 99.99% of crypto users can find an acceptable solution here somewhere, just as they do for Bitcoin with Multibit, Electrum, Coinbase, Bitstamp, etc.
Quote
How long you think the GUI will take then it seems like a bit of a priority and you have a lot of devs around?
You can review our development priorities here http://getmonero.org/design-goals and the GUI is somewhere in the middle. There is no stated release date. If you are in the 0.01% left out by my previous paragraph, sorry, you'll have to just wait.
OK so it's really not an issue at all for you that the official Monero wallet doesn't have a GUI after 1 year and third parties have to build it for you?
Raises a few questions:
1. Have you reviewed these 3rd party wallets yourself for malicious code, if so which ones?
2. During your review, why didn't you integrate some of the GUI code back to Monero wallet so people can use a mouse?
3. Regarding the marketing graphic, this has no timescales on it or prerequisite tasks, critical path etc. Are you going to provide these or is it just 'finger in the air stuff'?
Just to be transparent:
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.
As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.
some of my post got deleted too..i think it is getting extra strict there at DRK thread
While DRK devs are working and delivering... 
I didn't know there were 5 MONERO DEVS on here. That is hilarious
I didn't know there were 5 MONERO DEVS on here. That is hilarious
https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commits/master
There's been no commits to master in 23 days.
The most recent commits modified some MarkDown documents, correcting minor errors and adding known Tor relays.
But don't worry, after 23 days of doing nothing they are now very busy with search/replace to rename the project to Dash: https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commits/11.1-dash
Delivering. Always. Nodes.
https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commits/v0.11.2.x
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her wallet in masternode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
In short, no, that is not equivalent.
You can review or compile the open source wallet yourself, so it is not trusted anything.
so if I want to use a mouse with Monero I need to learn to code and compile first, *before* getting the trusted third party wallet which I then have to review for malicious code. How long you think the GUI will take then it seems like a bit of a priority and you have a lot of devs around?
This is the Design and Development Goals for Monero. https://getmonero.org/design-goals/ There are quite a few things ahead in the list before the GUI. One can buy now and learn the command line in GNU/Linux and possibly learn to compile code (this may be necessary) or wait until the GUI comes out. Of course the price after the GUI comes out could be higher or lower than now.
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her wallet in masternode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
In short, no, that is not equivalent.
You can review or compile the open source wallet yourself, so it is not trusted anything.
so if I want to use a mouse with Monero I need to learn to code and compile first, *before* getting the trusted third party wallet which I then have to review for malicious code.
No, as I explained it is not a trusted third party wallet if you are reviewing and compiling the code yourself. You have a choice of that or trusting some third parties (such as a Monero core developer who runs MyMonero for example, or exchanges, or reputable community members). I'm pretty sure that 99.99% of crypto users can find an acceptable solution here somewhere, just as they do for Bitcoin with Multibit, Electrum, Coinbase, Bitstamp, etc.
Quote
How long you think the GUI will take then it seems like a bit of a priority and you have a lot of devs around?
You can review our development priorities here http://getmonero.org/design-goals and the GUI is somewhere in the middle. There is no stated release date. If you are in the 0.01% left out by my previous paragraph, sorry, you'll have to just wait.
Fluffypony, can you confirm whether a double spend is possible in Monero?
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her wallet in masternode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
In short, no, that is not equivalent.
You can review or compile the open source wallet yourself, so it is not trusted anything.
so if I want to use a mouse with Monero I need to learn to code and compile first, *before* getting the trusted third party wallet which I then have to review for malicious code. How long you think the GUI will take then it seems like a bit of a priority and you have a lot of devs around?
...
LOL okay by DOS you mean command line, because I was wondering what the hell Linux and Mac users had to do with DOS.
But in any case there is no official GUI. There are five third party GUIs, four of them are open source (the fifth is de facto open source since you can see the source in your browser).
Using open source third party wallets doesn't seem to bother users of Electrum, Multibit, etc. I'm still a little perplexed as to why Monero opponents are so obsessed about it.
LOL okay by DOS you mean command line, because I was wondering what the hell Linux and Mac users had to do with DOS.
But in any case there is no official GUI. There are five third party GUIs, four of them are open source (the fifth is de facto open source since you can see the source in your browser).
Using open source third party wallets doesn't seem to bother users of Electrum, Multibit, etc. I'm still a little perplexed as to why Monero opponents are so obsessed about it.
His is talking about the Command Prompt in Windows, which does have a fair amount of overlap with the old DOS command prompt.
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her wallet in masternode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
In short, no, that is not equivalent.
You can review or compile the open source wallet yourself, so it is not trusted anything.
"to succed in the attack, an event whose probability is considered to be neglible" - sry like said im not a math guru, perhaps im wrong, but how could that be something valid proven
The context is that it would be equivalent to "breaking" a hash function. That is considered impossible so showing the equivalence is a valid security proof.
Quote
find a pre-image of Hs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack
2. I haven't spent oodles of time analysing MN trafficgrams, but again - layering it behind Tor will lead to a massively degraded experience. I also fail to see how mobile clients will be able to (easily) connect to Tor and then to MasterNodes, I think you're just creating an ever-more-complex design to fix flaws that only exist because of poor design decisions. Complexity doesn't fix bad design, it only makes it more fragile:)
Tor and I2P have been suggested quite vocally earlier, even to the point that the whole network would be ran under Tor/I2P (i.e. they would be built into the wallet). I've heard I2P would perform better?
I2p can send connectionless data, so it is better suited and would likely perform better yes, but these systems are of kind of questionable value (that doesn't mean no value, it means the value is difficult to know). On the other hand, Tor probably has far more more users (higher anonymity set) and a wider variety of use cases in practice, so that is a tradeoff. Both are susceptible to various forms of traffic analysis, MITM, etc.
Better in my opinion to use a trustless privacy scheme, and rely as little as possible on yet another third party layer that might be compromised. With Monero the amount of information that leaks even if network traffic is completely compromised is quite small. I commented further here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10790082
What about a lot of users not having DOS. Are they going to be able to use Monero in the future?
Even your grandma can with mymonero.com, even on her mobilephone. We have 4 other guis, all as easy as Darkcoins bitcoin-qt rippoff. You could just stop beeing narrow minded, life would be so much better. FYI commandline has nothing to do with DOS, i recommend you to visit a basic workshop on how to use a pc.
Quote
"to succed in the attack, an event whose probability is considered to be neglible" - sry like said im not a math guru, perhaps im wrong, but how could that be something valid proven. dunno if it was you or smooth but someone of you moneroguys liked to say over and over again that the anonymity of darksend has not been proven.
Read the MRL's unter lab.monero.cc; if you don't get the math i can't help you.
And yes you are wrong.
No I mean the official Monero wallet, not from trusted 3rd party wallets or websites.
So how to use Monero official wallet without GUI, I need to learn DOS prompt right?
LOL okay by DOS you mean command line, because I was wondering what the hell Linux and Mac users had to do with DOS.
But in any case there is no official GUI. There are five third party GUIs, four of them are open source (the fifth is de facto open source since you can see the source in your browser).
Using open source third party wallets doesn't seem to bother users of Electrum, Multibit, etc. I'm still a little perplexed as to why Monero opponents are so obsessed about it.
OK so Dark is bad because my granny with her DRK wallet running in masternode mode is bad because she is a trusted third party...
And I can't use the official Monero wallet with a mouse because the 5 devs trolling here didnt build a GUI yet in the last 12 months, so i should go get a wallet with gui from a trusted 3rd party?
Mymonero is from fluffypony, if you think hes third party i can't help you.
You should search real help somewhere else, go to a doc or so, dunno.
It's easy, they don't have a single GUI they made themselves/the community made, they are simply not used to having a choice.
You should search real help somewhere else, go to a doc or so, dunno.
Quote
I'm still a little perplexed as to why Monero opponents are so obsessed about it.
It's easy, they don't have a single GUI they made themselves/the community made, they are simply not used to having a choice.
2. I haven't spent oodles of time analysing MN trafficgrams, but again - layering it behind Tor will lead to a massively degraded experience. I also fail to see how mobile clients will be able to (easily) connect to Tor and then to MasterNodes, I think you're just creating an ever-more-complex design to fix flaws that only exist because of poor design decisions. Complexity doesn't fix bad design, it only makes it more fragile:)
Tor and I2P have been suggested quite vocally earlier, even to the point that the whole network would be ran under Tor/I2P (i.e. they would be built into the wallet). I've heard I2P would perform better?
I2p can send connectionless data, so it is better suited and would likely perform better yes, but these systems are of kind of questionable value (that doesn't mean no value, it means the value is difficult to know). On the other hand, Tor probably has far more more users (higher anonymity set) and a wider variety of use cases in practice, so that is a tradeoff. Both are susceptible to various forms of traffic analysis, MITM, etc.
Better in my opinion to use a trustless privacy scheme, and rely as little as possible on yet another third party layer that might be compromised. With Monero the amount of information that leaks even if network traffic is completely compromised is quite small. I commented further here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10790082
What about a lot of users not having DOS. Are they going to be able to use Monero in the future?
Even your grandma can with mymonero.com, even on her mobilephone. We have 4 other guis, all as easy as Darkcoins bitcoin-qt rippoff. You could just stop beeing narrow minded, life would be so much better. FYI commandline has nothing to do with DOS, i recommend you to visit a basic workshop on how to use a pc.
Quote
"to succed in the attack, an event whose probability is considered to be neglible" - sry like said im not a math guru, perhaps im wrong, but how could that be something valid proven. dunno if it was you or smooth but someone of you moneroguys liked to say over and over again that the anonymity of darksend has not been proven.
Read the MRL's unter lab.monero.cc; if you don't get the math i can't help you.
And yes you are wrong.
No I mean the official Monero wallet, not from trusted 3rd party wallets or websites.
So how to use Monero official wallet without GUI, I need to learn DOS prompt right?
LOL okay by DOS you mean command line, because I was wondering what the hell Linux and Mac users had to do with DOS.
But in any case there is no official GUI. There are five third party GUIs, four of them are open source (the fifth is de facto open source since you can see the source in your browser).
Using open source third party wallets doesn't seem to bother users of Electrum, Multibit, etc. I'm still a little perplexed as to why Monero opponents are so obsessed about it.
2. I haven't spent oodles of time analysing MN trafficgrams, but again - layering it behind Tor will lead to a massively degraded experience. I also fail to see how mobile clients will be able to (easily) connect to Tor and then to MasterNodes, I think you're just creating an ever-more-complex design to fix flaws that only exist because of poor design decisions. Complexity doesn't fix bad design, it only makes it more fragile:)
Tor and I2P have been suggested quite vocally earlier, even to the point that the whole network would be ran under Tor/I2P (i.e. they would be built into the wallet). I've heard I2P would perform better?
I2p can send connectionless data, so it is better suited and would likely perform better yes, but these systems are of kind of questionable value (that doesn't mean no value, it means the value is difficult to know). On the other hand, Tor probably has far more more users (higher anonymity set) and a wider variety of use cases in practice, so that is a tradeoff. Both are susceptible to various forms of traffic analysis, MITM, etc.
Better in my opinion to use a trustless privacy scheme, and rely as little as possible on yet another third party layer that might be compromised. With Monero the amount of information that leaks even if network traffic is completely compromised is quite small. I commented further here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10790082
What about a lot of users not having DOS. Are they going to be able to use Monero in the future?
Even your grandma can with mymonero.com, even on her mobilephone. We have 4 other guis, all as easy as Darkcoins bitcoin-qt rippoff. You could just stop beeing narrow minded, life would be so much better. FYI commandline has nothing to do with DOS, i recommend you to visit a basic workshop on how to use a pc.
Quote
"to succed in the attack, an event whose probability is considered to be neglible" - sry like said im not a math guru, perhaps im wrong, but how could that be something valid proven. dunno if it was you or smooth but someone of you moneroguys liked to say over and over again that the anonymity of darksend has not been proven.
Read the MRL's unter lab.monero.cc; if you don't get the math i can't help you.
And yes you are wrong.
No I mean the official Monero wallet, not from trusted 3rd party wallets or websites.
So how to use Monero official wallet without GUI, I need to learn DOS prompt right?
Jump to: