Topic: You are speculators not investors (Read 3511 times)

I try again:

Saving (derogative term: hoarding) is acquiring things or money for later use. You can sell them, without adding value (see below). You can for example buy food and hold in prospect of a catastrophe. You can trade it for something that someone else has saved. They can gain or loose value, doesn't matter. You can't add value to money, but they can appreciate in the market.

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent of making something of added value. Food can also be an investment, if you add value by repackaging, distributing or serving it.

Speculation is a derogative word for investing, meaning short time high risk, seen as non virtuous.

Looking at it again, saving can also be speculative if you take the risk that the stuff you save (money or things) will gain value in the market without the saver adding anything to it. So we partly agree.

If you move from the US and convert your USD to EUR are you now a speculator in euros?

Sorry, edited my post. Well, we are disagreeing.

You think this because they money you have known in your life (fiat) is worthless. If you would have grown up with gold as the main form of money you would be talking differently. Bitcoin is just the same, it's as much a commodity as it is a form of money.

Furthermore, my above statements hold true for FX trading also. There is no way to buy fiat cheaper than it's actual value (a big fat zero) so everyone doing FX trading is speculating.

Not if you buy money.


Only if you buy capital, and it is short time and risky, and seen as not virtuous by yourself or others.


Sure.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

I am an investor.

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2316522/The-Apple-set-sell-250-000.html

There's an excellent chance you will end up suicidal when 1 BTC becomes too pricey for the avg person to buy one.
I know how that feels, when I sold thousands of XC coin bought at 4k sat at 20k sat then watched helplessly as it climbed to 500k sats. Normally I wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone, but with you I'll make an exception.

How high you expect bitcoin will go? And at what price will you consider selling?

I'm sympathetic to OP's post.

I think spending bitcoin, building merchant acceptance, or starting and promoting services is "investing" in the protocol. Sitting on your arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars is not particularly useful, although I appreciate that the higher number of individuals holding coins the better.

Disclaimer: I'm sitting on my arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars. Rationally though, I know I could do more. Eventually I will, I'm a little time-poor at the moment.

The line between investing and speculating can be blurred at times.

I know people see bitcoin diferently when they are holding, and diferently when they cashed out, but to what point does one go when they sell and cant rebuy lower.
Answer is simple; one creates a topic to spit on others who didnt make the same mistake.
I may be wrong, but doubt it.

Arguing semantics on the internet... there are no winners, only losers.

When I think of "investment" I think of something (business, real estate, etc.) that produces cash flow and in turn pays the investor out of the profits earned. The profits are earned by providing value to a paying customer.

For example if I owned rented real estate and rented it for a profit that would be an investment.

When I think "speculation" I think of seeking out (perceived) bargains and then re-selling them at a higher price to make a profit.

If I bought the real estate because I perceived that it was under valued and that I could re-sell it later for a higher price, that would be a speculation.

A lot of times people in real estate make money by a combination of those two ways, but don't really make a distinction between the two.

I think in terms of Bitcoin, buying and holding BTC is not really an investment in the more traditional sense, but I can see how the argument can be made. If holders of BTC did not have the foresight to recognize the value of Bitcoin, then in turn nobody would bother developing the infrastructure or services that do earn profits and create real value, correct?

I suppose that argument might apply to any speculation and perhaps there is no definite line, but as a general rule I would view starting or buying a BTC business that earns a profit on services to be more of an "investment", rather than just holding BTC.

Bitcoin is an experiment not an investment. You can be "emotionally invested" in it's success which is another metaphor.

Other then that your Bitcoins (the number that represents your balance in the bitcoin wallet) will never be an investment nor will it make you an investor.
That is true even if the experiment succeeds on all accords (whatever that may be). What I think about the probability of it's success is irrelevant for the question of whenever people following the buy & hold strategy are investors or not. If it succeeds they would be very good speculators but still no investors.

This is the exact point where our opinions differ then.

If Bitcoin ever becomes something useful, enabling people to do something they couldn't have done before, it will have been through the early liquidity provided by us. That's what I'd call it an investment.

If Bitcoin fails to ever become useful, then I'd call it a "failed investment", which is still a form of investment.

I think, for you in order to not call it an investment at all, you have to work from the premise that Bitcoin cannot possibly become useful beyond something that existing implementations of currency already provide.

Agreed on that last point?

he didn't say that either. he just thinks all stocks pay dividends, he did not specify that SOME stocks use the money and pay dividends with it, he just said thats what stocks are. so either he is being purposely vague/wrong to get a response(likely) or he is just dumb(more likely?)

Well those people are smug and annoying. So yes.  Lol

So you want to see people with faith in something lose their money, this is funny to you?
You are a sad, sad man.