z - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Vladimir

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Quote from: znort987 on August 05, 2012, 01:36:46 AM

I just ran a quick analysis on the blockchain.

Out of the 192386 blocks currently mined, very many of them
have a BTC 50 block reward that has never been spent.

To be exact, 41493 blocks have an unspent reward.

That is worth approximately BTC 2'074'650.00 (not counting fees).

That's 2 Million+ pristine coins hoarded, or about 20% of the BTC market cap.

Lots of smart people around here.

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: keystroke on October 01, 2012, 11:05:09 PM

Why is it that the coins mined in the genesis block can't be spent?

Because it wouldn't be fair: there are no miners to compete for the reward. One more thing about Satoshi.

keystroke

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advocate of a cryptographic attack on the globe

Why is it that the coins mined in the genesis block can't be spent?

makomk

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Well, the issue has now been announced by forrestv, who discovered it: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/full-disclosure-cve-2012-2459-block-merkle-calculation-exploit-102395 Design flaw in the way Bitcoin computes merkle hashes that allows an attacker to create invalid blocks with the same hash as valid blocks. Can be used to carry out a 6+ confirmation double spend with essentially no computational resources. Very feasable attack from what I can tell.

makomk

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I meant the general design (the ideas, e.g. distributed proof of work),
and the practical implementation details (the nitty-gritty, e.g. the fact
that the user visible part of the crypto is base58 and checksummed).

Actually, there are some really unfortunate flaws in how Satoshi implemented Bitcoin that the developers have had to work around, at least one of which I'm not really meant to publicly talk about yet (or even know about in the first place for that matters).

bg002h

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I outlived my lifetime membership:)

Quote from: ErebusBat on August 07, 2012, 10:07:08 AM

Quote from: bg002h on August 05, 2012, 10:22:20 AM

According to bitcoincharts...yes, 2 million coins could be sold:

Sell 2000000 BTC for 1987718.05 USD...or about a buck a piece.

Interesting.... didn't pirate say something about taking the price down to $1?

I recall reading that too. I guess we know how many btc he controls.

dooglus

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Quote from: rjk on August 07, 2012, 09:05:54 AM

Check it out: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa <-- address of the genesis block's generation transaction.
While the 50 BTC can't be spent, it should be possible to spend the additional 6.57403164 BTC.

Oh, I see. Yes, that's my understanding of the situation as well.

ErebusBat

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I am the one who knocks

Quote from: bg002h on August 05, 2012, 10:22:20 AM

According to bitcoincharts...yes, 2 million coins could be sold:

Sell 2000000 BTC for 1987718.05 USD...or about a buck a piece.

Interesting.... didn't pirate say something about taking the price down to $1?

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: dooglus on August 06, 2012, 11:23:30 PM

Quote from: rjk on August 06, 2012, 10:17:24 PM

Quote from: organofcorti on August 06, 2012, 09:57:05 PM

Is that the case just for the genesis block, or other very early blocks too?

From what I understand, this limitation only applies to the generation transaction of the genesis block. Transactions sent to the "wishing well" could be spent.

Just the genesis block.

What's this about a wishing well? Went over my head, that.

Check it out: http://blockexplorer.com/address/1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa <-- address of the genesis block's generation transaction.
While the 50 BTC can't be spent, it should be possible to spend the additional 6.57403164 BTC.

Etlase2

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Now, as to the design, the reason why I strongly believe it was not the
work of a single person is because there are just damn too many very
good and novel ideas in there, and those actually span multiple disciplines:

Quote from: evoorhees on August 06, 2012, 10:47:56 AM

I think the "potential to cause serious damage" is vastly overblown. An individual or group who held lots of coins could, at worst, cause a very sudden drop in price.

But an individual or group who was a bank that lent lots of money could, at worst, stop loaning money and cause a very sharp increase in price, buy up lots of stuff, and then start the process all over again.

hazek

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Quote from: dooglus on August 06, 2012, 11:23:30 PM

What's this about a wishing well? Went over my head, that.

Some people pretend the genesis block 50BTC address is a wishing well.. Cheesy

dooglus

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Quote from: rjk on August 06, 2012, 10:17:24 PM

Quote from: organofcorti on August 06, 2012, 09:57:05 PM

Is that the case just for the genesis block, or other very early blocks too?

From what I understand, this limitation only applies to the generation transaction of the genesis block. Transactions sent to the "wishing well" could be spent.

Just the genesis block.

What's this about a wishing well? Went over my head, that.

rjk

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Merit: 250

1ngldh

Quote from: organofcorti on August 06, 2012, 09:57:05 PM

Quote from: dooglus on August 06, 2012, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 08:38:47 PM

That would require Satoshi to spend that coin

It's not possible to spend coins from the genesis block. To make it possible would require everyone to upgrade their client to a version which makes it possible. If a group of people didn't upgrade, they would be on a fork of the blockchain as soon as the genesis block's coins were spent.

Is that the case just for the genesis block, or other very early blocks too?

From what I understand, this limitation only applies to the generation transaction of the genesis block. Transactions sent to the "wishing well" could be spent.

organofcorti

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Poor impulse control.

Quote from: dooglus on August 06, 2012, 09:54:01 PM

Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 08:38:47 PM

That would require Satoshi to spend that coin

It's not possible to spend coins from the genesis block. To make it possible would require everyone to upgrade their client to a version which makes it possible. If a group of people didn't upgrade, they would be on a fork of the blockchain as soon as the genesis block's coins were spent.

Is that the case just for the genesis block, or other very early blocks too?

dooglus

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Quote from: myrkul on August 06, 2012, 08:38:47 PM

That would require Satoshi to spend that coin

It's not possible to spend coins from the genesis block. To make it possible would require everyone to upgrade their client to a version which makes it possible. If a group of people didn't upgrade, they would be on a fork of the blockchain as soon as the genesis block's coins were spent.

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: smoothie on August 06, 2012, 08:32:24 PM

"pristine coins" as if one coin is better than another. I guess numismatics can happen in bitcoin but I rather think that's retarded. If it floats your boat to pay a premium to have 1 bitcoin from the genesis block...have at it. Cheesy

That would require Satoshi to spend that coin, and even assuming we can find him to do so, that would ruin the "numismatic" value of it. The "pristine" nature isn't in that it's any different from any other coin, it's that the address it's sitting in is not linked to known transactions, and thus, is significantly more anonymous than a previously spent coin.

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

"pristine coins" as if one coin is better than another. I guess numismatics can happen in bitcoin but I rather think that's retarded. If it floats your boat to pay a premium to have 1 bitcoin from the genesis block...have at it. Cheesy

niko

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: molecular on August 06, 2012, 01:25:49 PM

Quote from: Rygon on August 06, 2012, 11:31:42 AM

I think it is highly unlikely that there are many people (if anyone) out there just sitting on stashes of 100,000K+ coins.

That would be awesome, but I think it's not the case. However, I don't think it's going to backfire badly, as evorhees and deathandtaxes have argued.

To me then the interesting remaining question is if fraction of hoarded coins really dropped, or this finding is merely an artifact of pooled mining. Even if latter is the case, ~30% of mined coins are still being hoarded, and ~70% are actively traded for goods, services, and fiat.

How does this compare to gold? Is it even a fair comparison - with bitcoin mining being so deterministic, unlike gold where (especially in the early days) you had to rely on luck?

molecular

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Quote from: Rygon on August 06, 2012, 11:31:42 AM

I think it is highly unlikely that there are many people (if anyone) out there just sitting on stashes of 100,000K+ coins.

That would be awesome, but I think it's not the case. However, I don't think it's going to backfire badly, as evorhees and deathandtaxes have argued.

Rygon

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I think it is highly unlikely that there are many people (if anyone) out there just sitting on stashes of 100,000K+ coins. At the current market value, that's over $1M USD. Unless they are already a millionaire several times over, it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to have a savings account that large in something as volatile as BTC and not gradually draw down on it to buy food, homes, entertainment, whatever.

Someone would have to be extremely confident in Bitcoin's long term value not to use some of that today to improve their lifestyle. Bitcoin is still an experiment, so I think when anyone approaches the threshold of having the majority of their wealth in Bitcoin, it's too risky. Ask yourself, if you had 10-20 years worth of income (assuming 50-100K yearly income) stored in BTC (even if you earned it cheaply through mining), would you still risk it all on Bitcoin's success? Or would you at least enjoy some of that now?

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