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legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
February 13, 2014, 09:16:07 PM
A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

With all due respect, that sounds disturbingly like naive and commercially inexperienced programmer accounting and not real world business accounting.

I currently employ twelve developers, run two software development companies and have been doing that kind of things for many years.  From my perspective the figures you're quoting here are nonsense. Smiley

Maybe it makes some sense if you can only employ people from California, one of the most expensive places on Earth for this kind of thing by the way.  But even then it's a pretty generous arrangement.

I don't care how you cut it:

If anyone thinks a million dollars is in any way appropriate - or frankly even $350k - for a custom forum build then I've got a bridge or two I'd like to sell them.


I think the forum does need a bridge.

It's time all us trolls get something over our heads!
+1
I'm curious if the price was fiat or XBT.  The way the exchange rate is going nowadays who knows it might end up costing more then 5000XBT.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2014, 08:42:53 PM
I'm pretty dissapointed that some of the money will go for an automated ad auction system, that will only work on a dying forum software, and will need to be ported to the new custom one after that. Is that really necessary?

The auction system is written in Node. It will be able to be used with the new software without much modification.

You answer one question? Come on we need answers. Please don't just ignore questions.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
February 13, 2014, 05:47:39 PM
I'm pretty dissapointed that some of the money will go for an automated ad auction system, that will only work on a dying forum software, and will need to be ported to the new custom one after that. Is that really necessary?

The auction system is written in Node. It will be able to be used with the new software without much modification.
KFR
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Per ardua ad luna
February 13, 2014, 04:13:37 PM
A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

With all due respect, that sounds disturbingly like naive and commercially inexperienced programmer accounting and not real world business accounting.

I currently employ twelve developers, run two software development companies and have been doing that kind of things for many years.  From my perspective the figures you're quoting here are nonsense. Smiley

Maybe it makes some sense if you can only employ people from California, one of the most expensive places on Earth for this kind of thing by the way.  But even then it's a pretty generous arrangement.

I don't care how you cut it:

If anyone thinks a million dollars is in any way appropriate - or frankly even $350k - for a custom forum build then I've got a bridge or two I'd like to sell them.
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
February 13, 2014, 03:56:39 PM
im pretty sure goat expects current rate + 80% interest for his time + another 80% for loss of income + a dinner with theymos in vegas


Just out of curiosity all of you who want a refund of your donations are you expecting straight XBT refund or fiat equivalent and why?  Also why did you donate at the time if those questions weren't answered?
Since the forum donation levels are pegged to BTC, they obviously want a refund in BTC. Works both ways you know  Tongue
So someone donated to the forums a few years back at $10/XBT and let's say the forum spent that XBT on hosting or some other minor things.  So by your logic where will these refunds come from now; out of the current donations, theymos' pocket, or where from exactly?  Is every later donator supposed to basically subsidize these refunds and give a profit to earlier donators?
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 11
Principal Software Engineer
February 13, 2014, 03:53:45 PM
Within the first 3 months, I'd like to have an initial version up of the new forum software. Migration will happen afterwards. I'm not sure about how long this will take yet.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
February 13, 2014, 03:49:28 PM
@Wangbus, How much time it will take to migrate/convert this forum into a new one, after new forum software will be ready?
That's a good question. I hope for that price everyone will get to keep their watchlist, and all the negative trust (and none of the positive one, because it's BAD).

But what I'd like, here, really, is to gain access to the specifications you're working with.
And for each feature, I'd like to have a workload estimate, and a progress bar.

How many people will work on this, btw?


legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
February 13, 2014, 03:43:41 PM
@Wangbus, How much time it will take to migrate/convert this forum into a new one, after new forum software will be ready?

legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
February 13, 2014, 03:37:51 PM
Well I agree with others, 1 million dollar for a opensource forum software is pretty a big amount, It's like paying 1 million dollar for a pizza now (that lazlo ate in 2010 Cheesy)

If theymos have paid 5500 BTC for a new forum software in 2011, no one would have asked a question because bitcoins price was low that time, but now even 1000 BTC is too much.



member
Activity: 110
Merit: 11
Principal Software Engineer
February 13, 2014, 03:10:47 PM
Auction system is a detail. The forum is the main project.

On top of that, the ads generate revenue for the site so that's very important.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
February 13, 2014, 03:00:03 PM
I'm pretty dissapointed that some of the money will go for an automated ad auction system, that will only work on a dying forum software, and will need to be ported to the new custom one after that. Is that really necessary?
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2014, 02:55:30 PM
A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.
This could be a long-term business agreement, why drive these people away before they even have a chance to release a working prototype? The current agreement is provisional, the amount paid should cover a few months' work. Then people will actually have something to modify, fork, and perfect.

How many pages did the original bounty thread have to continue before theymos realized it was futile, professional endeavors need professional networks. I worry about the expertise that's been squandered here in the past from vitriol and mob psychology.

Thank you shil, but you are really the only person here that can't talk because you didn't track the right people, so yeah your opinions don't count. Let business people, that are living in the real world.

$1 million dollars for a forum, is insane! Any custom software, that is not enterprise level that cost more than $150K is insane! I am a freelancer I know the price. Also they already admitted that this is not going to be a full time project, they have other projects. That for sure doesn't warrant the $1 million price tag.

For $350K I rather not see the prototype. $350K for a little bit of work which they will turn over to the open source community give me a break, to do thru bug hunting and adding to it. Come on this is $150K max for the whole thing. Theymos get your head out of the sand this donation money now listen to the community we don't want this!!!!!
KFR
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Per ardua ad luna
February 13, 2014, 01:49:57 PM
When they hear things like "doing you a favor" and "Twitter isn't profitable and it cost millions", are people supposed to be encouraged?

If anyone thinks a million dollars is in any way appropriate - or frankly even $350k - for a custom forum build then I've got a bridge or two I'd like to sell them.

member
Activity: 110
Merit: 11
Principal Software Engineer
February 13, 2014, 01:33:42 PM
@Wangbus, teasup

Was theymos able to see any of your NDA'd code/portfolio?

Yes and we talked about the technical pieces regarding this implementation for a while now. We were approached and connected via other parties so I wasn't aware of the other thread on this forum. Like I said, we'll do our best and everything will be open source for public eyes to see. I am a community leader and there is a lot of information about me on the Internet if you want to dig. I actually don't update my public resume anymore, but please add me on LinkedIn if you guys would like more information. I've been focusing solely on my company.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
February 13, 2014, 11:37:45 AM
I've done some background checking. I don't have much on Wangbus yet but I do have some stuff for Ed (taesup).

Resume:
https://sites.google.com/site/taesup63/EdwardKimResume.pdf

Blogs:
https://sites.google.com/site/taesup63 - has some previous projects
http://taesup.com/blog
http://taesup.blogspot.ru/

Social:
https://twitter.com/taesup

github:
http://github.com/taesup
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
February 13, 2014, 09:26:52 AM
#99
therymos doesn't get forum software designed, matthewmwright holds a press conference claiming fraud, everyone gets out the pitchforks. therymos gets forum software designed, everyone claims fraud, gets out the pitchforks.

Thats not what happened at all. We want forum software, we all do, but we're not happy with the way things are being handled.

A while ago Theymos offered 5500BTC to make the forum software and had people from the community contact him:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/looking-for-someone-to-createmodify-software-for-this-forum-5500-btc-50617

Hundreds of people contacted him, some people with extensive portfolio's and some people that were well-known and trusted by the community. After reviewing hundreds of people Theymos decided that he wasn't happy with having anyone other than himself make the forum software.

I can understand that because if you want something done right you gotta do it yourself and unlike Bitcoin where you can just send money to an exchange and get BTC, there isn't an exchange that you can send money to and get good forum software.

Theymos is still in college etc so he didn't have any time to make the software himself. So after a year or so of stalling he decided to hand over $350k as part of a million dollar contract to a software development company that is unknown to the community without telling anyone - not even other bitcointalk.org staff.

Unlike the previous offers this particular software development company does not have any public portfolio or even a company website. They also refuse to show us any previous work at all claiming ALL of it is NDA - we have yet to see a single line of code that was written by them. I am not sure if you realize this, Slickage Studios, but that money was donated by the community over the past number of years so all these people who are asking questions are the ones who are paying the bills, not Theymos - in fact I don't think he paid a penny of his own money.

Theymos hired this company without even telling us and this was the wrong thing to do, he should have posted here beforehand letting us know his intention to hire them and had us grill the company seeing as we were the ones paying for it.

In addition to this it is many people's opinion that the cost is excessive. You can argue that x cost x to make or x got so much in IPO money but lets not forget that the Satoshi Bitcoin client cost $0 to make and has spawned an industry worth a Billion dollars.

In the end of the day Slickage Studios were not the only bidders for this project and many more established dev companies were willing to make it for less (5500BTC was $150,000 at the original time of offer). In addition to this Slickage Studio's are not Twitter, Facebook or VBulletin and they cannot justify their costs by quoting their expenses. Also most of the people here would not like a startup working on this project but rather an established company with verifiable history and a track-record.

This is what has happened. This is why people are mad. Anybody would agree we have a right to be mad and highly suspicious of this entire thing.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504
February 13, 2014, 08:34:50 AM
#98
We are doing the community a favor by building this and also for the open source community because a forum of this sort isn't exactly high priority on the "hipster" Silicon Valley list of important things to do.

No, you are not doing any favour for this community. You are being alleged paid with funds collected from donators/VIP forum members. We are not in need of favour around here, we are in need of security, quality control and internal organization. We are the ones doing you a favour.


legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2014, 03:15:22 AM
#97
Quote
Does the bitcointalk forum own a piece of this forum if it ever it went the way of the other open source projects and started generating income?

From my understanding, no... this will be completely open source.

What is the agreement if it starts making money?


No when you hire someone for $150 and you can't use it, it isn't a waste. When you hire someone for $350K you don't have waste. That is a huge sum of money for any development project, that could fail.
The person you're currently grilling is a post-doctoral researcher with a published body of work in statistics and electrical engineering. Please don't suggest that these people are overpaid or unqualified, or that they'll produce something completely useless. This could be a yearlong relationship, why start on a sour note? They deserve much more than $1,000,000 for working with this community.

I am a freelance programmer, have started my own companies, and if you think this is grilling then you are mistaken. This is how the real world conducts business. If I could show you some of the request and questions I get asked when I am doing a project, my grilling would look like a cakewalk. So now let the people that know what they are doing, do what they need to do.

Remember theymos was going to have a group of people to head up doing this and question the people he choose to do this. Guess what, I am making myself that official unofficial person. So in 6 months when theymos goes we don't have $350K worth of bitcoins anymore and no new forum is coming, I can sit and go at least I tried to do something.

I don't think they deserve more than $150K for this, most programmers can do this with that amount of money. But it isn't me making the deal so yeah...

We don't mind the questions. That's what we're here for right now, and why we've created accounts with our day to day handles. We're here to engage the community. So ask away.

As for the amounts being tossed around, I obviously can't speak for Theymos or for James. But I can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. gweedo, being that you're a programmer too, I'm sure you can relate to this.

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

As a freelancer, I'm sure you charge around the same rate to compensate for the "self-employment tax," your own benefits, etc.

So this your only project? You are exclusively working only on the forum software? Cause I worked with design/development firms and they usually have multiple projects going on, to keep cost down for the clients. A forum costing $1 million and taking a year to build, I never seen this happen, and to be honest it is insane. When we have an amazing community of developers that probably love to dedicate a few spare hours a day helping this cause.

So in response to your previous questions, as much as I'm allowed to at least, we do have other clients and we do try to keep our costs low. As such, we believe our rate is competitive. In all fairness, we hope that this project doesn't just end in a year, no software project ever just ends. At least, not open source ones. We do hope that the community can contribute as well. In our shared experience though, someone does need to champion the cause and often times money is the best motivator. We hope that we can set a good base for the forum, get the designs out the door, then allow the open source community to help fix bugs and build features.

The most successful open source project are usually backed by some commercial sponsor. Node.js itself is backed by Joyent. Also, we want to keep the funding within the hands of BitcoinTalk. This also ensure that any commercial sponsor outside the community can't hijack the project by threatening to pull funds.

As for other startups, many millions have been invested into startups that still have not turned profitable but continues to succeed in their own space. Twitter is a great example of this. We are comparatively cheap on that scale.

As for the software itself, it is not a custom piece of software. When open sourced, it'll be available for use by anyone just like vBulletin.

Vbulletin isn't open sourced, it cost money. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBulletin

Again wrong, twitter has actually made a lot of people very wealthy, and aimded to IPO, I doubt a custom forum software will allow you to do that.

Plus you are comparing a language that allows people to scale companies to forum software? Lets get in the real world, forum software is pretty outdated, it is only useful to a niche market like us. I doubt any company will sponsor unless it is a bitcoin company or company that uses forum software.

Well your prices aren't competitive at all, and now that you have revealed that this isn't your only project, that makes your price seem even more insane. Now you are taking the idea of being the lead of an open source software, but how does that warrant a $1 million price tag? You do see how we are skeptical, we have yet to see any portfolio of the company, and I never heard of you, and you are hiding behind this NDA. I really don't think you should be getting $1 million for pretty simple software and you aren't even working full time. I think you really need to convince this community of what you are able to do. For $1 million I should be blown away by the quality of the software, but if you are just going to allow the open source community to clean up bugs and you just going to pocket $1 million that is really not right and unethical. These are donation funds not some company, I am really disappointed in theymos for his choice.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1004
Keep it real
February 13, 2014, 08:20:52 AM
#97
@Wangbus, teasup

Was theymos able to see any of you NDA'd code/portfolio?

+1

Please link us to anything you can, I don't think there's been any sort of portfolio work posted.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504
February 13, 2014, 08:01:07 AM
#96
Design work has started on the forum, but the first delivery to this community is an auction system for the ad spaces app that will integrate with the current forum. We'll be revealing that in the upcoming weeks.

 Roll Eyes

This shows that Michael could care less for the community. His priority is not to protect or to improve the forum. He wants to increase the profit generated by advertisements before anything else. A better auction system would allow him to have more free time to do his best for the community, which is do almost nothing.
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