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Topic: 2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN (Read 7020 times)

legendary
Activity: 974
Merit: 1000
June 17, 2013, 12:46:59 PM
You think I should advertise?
I started to get a feeble impression you were doing this already

To be sure, that is a question I can sometimes answer for clients, but it is a very, very fact-based inquiry and takes many hours of research.  Let me know if you're interested in that.
That said, it looks to me like you are flying solo.  Most people who do this don't fly solo.  They do it with legal counsel.  Without a knowledgeable lawyer at your side, you risk rocking the boat in the wrong direction.
One of the services I can provide (Spam Alert!) is analyzing your business closely under any or all of the states and determining whether you really do require licensing.
Obviously, to determine whether your business in particular needs to register in any state, I'd need to know more about your business and then take a close look at the state's regulations to apply the latter to the former.

But reading through your posts again, I saw a lot of useful information too. So never mind, I'm just a cheeky monkey Grin
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
June 17, 2013, 10:52:49 AM
What is unclear to me is whether they are talking about regulating the exchanges or regulating every single individual who uses an exchange.  Seems uncomfortably vague to me.  What happens if every Joe who trades a single bitcoin for cash becomes "an agent"?

I freely admit that I'm not well-versed in financial legalities, so enlightenment is welcome...


Fidgets,  Unfortunately that is currently the case.  Every Joe who trades a bitcoin for cash become a MSB that is probably required to get a MT license in every State in which he has clients.

So what started out as a hobby or small business just turned into a $7M venture.

It has been discussed here and other places, that bitcoiners need to come together and engage policy makers.  I've heard this is happening with a group in Washington and I know that Bitcoin Foundation (Peter Vannesses's club) is making overtures in that area, however I've yet to hear or read any official info.

Gavin and Patrick Murick( attorney for Bitcoin Foundation) spoke at a panel in Washington last week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/17/can-bitcoin-make-peace-with-washington/
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
June 17, 2013, 10:28:08 AM
Just found this thread.... you guys know that there's a legal forum right?!  Tongue

Yes, thank you. Do you know, that there is the possibility to buy ad space?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2411569

You think I should advertise?

NO. Adds are spammy and SCAMMY.

You knowledgeable posts are all you need to advertise. 
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
June 17, 2013, 10:22:24 AM
Just found this thread.... you guys know that there's a legal forum right?!  Tongue

Yes, thank you. Do you know, that there is the possibility to buy ad space?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2411569

You think I should advertise?
newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
June 17, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
What is unclear to me is whether they are talking about regulating the exchanges or regulating every single individual who uses an exchange.  Seems uncomfortably vague to me.  What happens if every Joe who trades a single bitcoin for cash becomes "an agent"?

I freely admit that I'm not well-versed in financial legalities, so enlightenment is welcome...
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
June 17, 2013, 10:19:29 AM
I just post and let the mod's move if necessary.

As you can see the sub-forums get MUCH LESS traffic as I just found your thread and you just found this one.



I'm mostly just bitter that I post in the less-popular forum  Angry

Me too!

There was a lot of GREAT info that I totally missed!
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
June 17, 2013, 10:17:32 AM
I just post and let the mod's move if necessary.

As you can see the sub-forums get MUCH LESS traffic as I just found your thread and you just found this one.



I'm mostly just bitter that I post in the less-popular forum  Angry
legendary
Activity: 974
Merit: 1000
June 17, 2013, 10:14:00 AM
Just found this thread.... you guys know that there's a legal forum right?!  Tongue

Yes, thank you. Do you know, that there is the possibility to buy ad space?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2411569
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
June 17, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
I just post and let the mod's move if necessary.

As you can see the sub-forums get MUCH LESS traffic as I just found your thread and you just found this one.

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
June 17, 2013, 10:02:05 AM
Just found this thread.... you guys know that there's a legal forum right?!  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 16, 2013, 02:58:10 PM
tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

Coinbase has been doing it for as long as they've been in business and people jumped on board. A perfectly good decentralized, P2P currency wasted on people who WANT to be tracked.

what exactly are they doing?

are they confiscating tainted coins when they enter their system?  or are they just labeling coins as tainted when they connect them to an address in their system discovered to be engaging in illicit activity?

if they are doing this then eventually everyone/investors will start bypassing their system.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
June 16, 2013, 01:49:29 PM
tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

Coinbase has been doing it for as long as they've been in business and people jumped on board. A perfectly good decentralized, P2P currency wasted on people who WANT to be tracked.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 16, 2013, 01:40:17 PM
FinCEN actions certain will put the brakes on the rate of growth though.

The price drop is clearly due to Fincen's actions, at least in part. But I've been wrong before.

tainting coins can NEVER be allowed.

it's an easy excuse for not catching the criminals in the first place.  just destroy the currency.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
June 16, 2013, 01:12:07 PM
FinCEN actions certain will put the brakes on the rate of growth though.

The price drop is clearly due to Fincen's actions, at least in part. But I've been wrong before.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
June 16, 2013, 01:08:59 PM
Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.   ELIMINATING COMPETITION.

Exactly! They should have just taxed Gin in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
June 16, 2013, 01:04:12 PM
Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.   ELIMINATING COMPETITION.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
June 16, 2013, 12:59:34 PM
DeathAndTaxes

We should schedule a trip to Washington D.C.

BCB

I'll go! I hear you can score some of the youngest hookers and best drugs in the country in the park across the street from the White House.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
June 16, 2013, 12:54:43 PM
DeathAndTaxes

We should schedule a trip to Washington D.C.

BCB
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
June 16, 2013, 12:47:26 PM
I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling

It's the crux of the issue. Fincen is destabilizing Bitcoin by wielding arbitrary authority. Taking down Liberty Reserve while allowing the larger banking players to continue with their criminal behavior for a fine/fee is a good example of such arbitrary power. It even undermines Fincen's own enforcement authority in the larger world such that future regulatory actions will likely focus on increasingly smaller players.

The worst part is that the "Money Transmitter" classification is a poison pill.  Not at the federal level where the requirements are no different than any other MSB.  The issue is that at the state level MT are very heavily regulated, licensed, and bonded.  If FinCEN says virtual currency exchanges are money transmitters according to federal law will the states follow the same path.  Remember each state has a byzantine set of different regulations, licenses, and requirements.  Licensing even if a startup can meet the high cost, capital requirements, and can secure an expensive surety bond can take anywhere from 6 to 24 months.  Now repeat that for every single state.  There is a reason there are only roughly a dozen companies with MT licenses in all the states*, those companies employ an army of lawyers to keep compliant. There is no business with more regulatory overhead than money transmitters, except maybe banks.  It may be cheaper for a well capitalized company to form a National Bank as that bypasses all state regulation.

Now I am not saying Bitcoin brokers/dealers/exchanges shouldn't have some regulation, that is likely inevitable in every country.  The MT classification is a regulatory sledgehammer and it will stifle innovation and reduce the number of players to the few very well capitalized companies (i.e. PayPal 2.0) which can afford to play that game.  Of course the cost of that regulatory overhead doesn't vanish.  It is a perpetual costs which will be passed on to users in the form of higher fees.  Higher fees will make Bitcoin less attractive (as least in the US) and that will slow adoption.

Just to give you an example:
Gold Dealer?  Regulated?  Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
VISA? Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Commodities Broker?  Regulated?  Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Securities Broker?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? No.
Currency Dealer/Broker?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter?  No.
Tiny Bitcoin startup?  Regulated? Yes.  Money Transmitter? Yes (if they exchange virtual currency for real currency)

All of those entities send and receive funds but they aren't considered money transmitters.  That expensive definition has generally been reserved for the transmission of funds from one person to another one.  Now FinCEN doesn't say that a MT at federal level makes one a MT at the state level but it leaves the door wide open.  Using logic or common sense, the action of exchanging BTC for USD is far more similar to the action of exchanging EUR for USD than any other classification, yes FinCEN took the MT route in their guidance.  FinCEN already has a classification for exchanging "real" currencies, it is called "Foreign Currency Dealer/Exchange".  Now this is still a type of MSB and thus still regulated at the federal level but almost no state require licensing for that activity.  Of the six categories of MSBs, FinCEN just happened (in a legal stretch) to put Bitcoin exchanges into the category which faces (by many magnitudes) the highest level of potential regulation at the state level.

As an example lets look at the actions of three theoretical companies:
BitBase accepts a certain amount of USD from a person and provides the SAME person a certain amount of BTC based on a published exchange rate.
FiatBase accepts a certain amount of USD from a person and provides the SAME person a certain amount of EUR based on a published exchange rate.
Western Union accepts a certain amount of USD from ONE PERSON and transmits it to a DIFFERENT person for a fee.
Of these three which seems the most dissimilar?

Common sense says WU is the different one.  FinCEN says no, FiatBase is the different one. The first and third examples are money transmitters and FiatBase is a Dealer in Foreign Currency.


Now I know the tone was gloomy but the actions of FinCEN won't kill Bitcoin, Bitcoin will route around the damaged parts of the system.  The Canadian equivalent of FinCEN has indicated the action of exchanging virtual currency for real currency simply doesn't fit under any existing law and thus (for now) is unregulated.  This doesn't mean Canada will need to pass NEW LAWS rather than take the "guidance" route that FinCEN did.  You know that whole concept of "of the people, by the people, for the people".  The situation in the US however is now open to uncertainty, risk, and additional cost.  Coincidence?



* "all" = 47 states and 4 territories which require them.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
June 16, 2013, 12:37:13 PM
Now if you are allowing illegal activities on your system they are you liable for Criminal enforcement from DOJ/DHS etc.

And they might decide something that's legal this week will be illegal next week. That's arbitrary authority.

I agree that this uncertain regulation is very unsettling however FINcen and DOJ etc has made it pretty clear that they are not big fans fan of the following activity.

Money Laundering
Terrorist Financing
Child/Human Exploitation

If you plan on engaging in or allowing this type of activity then you could be prosecuted.

Yes, but since the days of Al Capone they have gone after the money when they were unsuccessful at stopping the crime. In their view eliminating Bitcoin in the USA = stopping crime.
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