2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN - page 4.

Trongersoll

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Quote from: atomium on June 14, 2013, 04:19:39 PM

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

Hey! Look over there! *quickly runs the other way*

heh. I'm not a lawyer or a tax accountant. What you are asking is uncharted territory. Gov.s aren't stupid. They are going to demand their piece of the action one way or another. Once enough people start using Bitcoins in their daily transactions the Gov. will notice and demand their taxes. It will probably take some time though. Perhaps the day will come when the Gov. will accept the taxes on the bitcoin portion of your income in bitcoins. Most likely though, they will factor in some average exchange rate like they do for capital gains made on multiple stock purchases all liquidated at once.

atomium

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Study the past, if you would divine the future.

Quote from: Trongersoll on June 14, 2013, 04:10:01 PM

Quote from: atomium on June 14, 2013, 03:49:14 PM

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

In my opinion, if you are not offering to exchange for fiat, you should be fine. But, keep detailed records. If you are making any kind of money off this enterprise, fiat or otherwise, sooner or later the Taxman will request his due.

Personally, I am keeping a ledger of all Bitcoin related expenses and income. As long as i keep investing in new equipment to keep up with the ASIC arms race, my mining will be considered a Hobby. Eventually, I'll start taking a percentage as profit and then i'll just pay taxes on that. As long as you stay above board with what you are doing i doubt the US Gov. will really care.

Thank you for that, it really helps, yea we are keeping very detailed records of all our transactions so that should help us with any issues that we may come by. We will also be making a profit so like you said once we move to to fiat we will have to pay taxes on it.

Now another question what if we never change to fiat and use the bitcoins to make purchases lets say for non-business related expenses?

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

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Quote from: franky1 on June 14, 2013, 04:11:17 PM

nah its not bitcoin causing negative impact... its the bankers of 2007 that done that, all by themselves

Bitcoin is a threat because banks can't manipulate its creation or distribution. They can only attempt to manipulate the price and try to surreptitiously keep as many bitcoins out of circulation as possible.

If Bitcoin wasn't a threat to banks, Fincen wouldn't be interested in Bitcoin.

franky1

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Quote from: Severian on June 14, 2013, 04:07:08 PM

Quote from: franky1 on June 14, 2013, 04:00:03 PM

meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

The European Central Bank has already said it was a threat to the reputation of central banks.

Quote

"Greater demand for virtual currencies could have a negative impact on the reputation of central banks, according to a report published by the European Central Bank in October last year. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html

nah its not bitcoin causing negative impact... its the bankers of 2007 that done that, all by themselves

Trongersoll

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Quote from: atomium on June 14, 2013, 03:49:14 PM

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

In my opinion, if you are not offering to exchange for fiat, you should be fine. But, keep detailed records. If you are making any kind of money off this enterprise, fiat or otherwise, sooner or later the Taxman will request his due.

Personally, I am keeping a ledger of all Bitcoin related expenses and income. As long as i keep investing in new equipment to keep up with the ASIC arms race, my mining will be considered a Hobby. Eventually, I'll start taking a percentage as profit and then i'll just pay taxes on that. As long as you stay above board with what you are doing i doubt the US Gov. will really care.

Severian

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: franky1 on June 14, 2013, 04:00:03 PM

meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

The European Central Bank has already said it was a threat to the reputation of central banks.

Quote

"Greater demand for virtual currencies could have a negative impact on the reputation of central banks, according to a report published by the European Central Bank in October last year. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html

franky1

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meanwhile the bitcoin community think that bitcoin will ruin the fiat currencies somehow.

so the main face of the UK pound coin made a statement

atomium

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Study the past, if you would divine the future.

oh awesome, yea we dont convert for fiat we just collect bitcoin, take our fee, then pay out the bitcoin to the seller.

franky1

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Quote from: atomium on June 14, 2013, 03:49:14 PM

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

if you touch fiat then i would call your countries financial authorities. if you only accept bitcoin, don't worry

atomium

donator

Activity: 406

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Study the past, if you would divine the future.

What do you guys think about a business like mine, Coingig.com, we allow sellers to create a store and sell products to other users. We have an intermediary escrow system that keeps the bitcoin the buyer pays and we don't release it to the seller until the buyer has received their item.

Are we classified as a money transmitter? I would guess so, what are everyone's thoughts, what is the best way to work with FINCEN to remain open?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

600watt

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Quote from: Severian on June 14, 2013, 02:46:19 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 01:18:57 PM

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future.

We're already there. I'd say it's more Huxleyian than Orwellian, but that's just hairsplitting about what kind of totalitarianism is looming over us.

yes, +1

but no, orwell couldn´t even imagine that...

...for example people would pay for their own surveilance devices, carry them around 24/7 and re-charge them themselves, when they run out of energy.

...for example people would have their body fluids scanned by the police and if a metabolic trace of a forbidden fruit is found, they get punished.

...

...

Severian

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Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 01:18:57 PM

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future.

We're already there. I'd say it's more Huxleyian than Orwellian, but that's just hairsplitting about what kind of totalitarianism is looming over us.

franky1

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Quote from: malevolent on June 14, 2013, 08:48:26 AM

Quote from: franky1 on June 14, 2013, 08:26:52 AM

translation is get rid of tin foil hats and chinese whispers. read the regulations about FIAT and realise they can only control the FIAT. so get regulated if you are touching FIAT.

just those innovative teentrepreneurs (teenage amateur entrepreneurs)wanting to exchange fiat for other currencies GET REGULATED.

Sure, just provide the money necessary for the paper-shuffling beaurocracy, time wasted (because time = money) and to cover the alternative cost of having less clients.

well this is where people have to get their head out of the sand and stop thinking mining is the only way to make money.
average joe with fiat in his hand does not make money by minting coins or mining gold, printing bank notes. he works for companies that give him fiat.

so if you work. get your boss to accept bitcoin for the services they offer and you will happily accept that received bitcoin as your wage. if everyone done this, it would change everything

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I don't have any kids. But if I did I would also teach them to resist any kind of tyranny. Crypto, weapons, survival... Hey, we should arrange a playdate! lol

I read this guys book last year and I thought he made a good case for our relative freedom. Here is his TED talk.
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Hopefully our luck won't run out and see a slide into some kind of Orwellian future. With people like you and me and our kids, anyone oppressing us is at least going to get hurt trying.

Severian

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Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 01:02:43 PM

No one has been as free as we are now.

There were far more freedoms before the increasingly centralized police states that typify the modern State:

Quote

"Next in importance to personal freedom is immunity from suspicions, and jealous observation. Men may be without restraints upon their liberty: they may pass to and fro at pleasure: but if their steps are tracked by spies and informers, their words noted down for crimination, their associates watched as conspirators, who shall say that they are free? Nothing is more revolting to Englishmen than the espionage which forms part of the administrative system of continental despotisms. It haunts men like an evil genius, chills their gaiety, restrains their wit, casts a shadow over their friendships, and blights their domestic hearth.

The freedom of a country may be measured by its immunity from this baleful agency. Rulers who distrust their own people, must govern in a spirit of absolutism; and suspected subjects will be ever sensible of their bondage."

The Constitutional History Of England Vol II (1863), pg. 288

by T. E. May

The difference is that now we have the same tools that the State has had over us: crypto.

I teach all the kids in my sphere about crypto if they're interested. That's how things will change within the next generation. Wink

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Severian on June 14, 2013, 12:24:43 PM

Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 12:20:42 PM

However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce.

I have to disagree. This government has proven itself nothing but unreasonable. The unreason that emanates from DC results in more evil than good in this world.

They may be able to force some people and exchanges to pay up with the usual threats, but why would a reasonable person willingly want to cooperate with evil?

We are not so far apart. I don't think the US gov is "evil" though. If I did I would not only not pay taxes, I would fight them on the battlefield. But this is not Syria. I think of governments like people. They are a complicated mix. sometimes acting foolishly or even against the people. But at least here we have hope to change things. Even in my lifetime I have seen bad ideas turned upside down. When I was born it was illegal for a black man to marry a white woman. And look at how far we have come with legalizing drugs, or solidifying our right to carry firearms. It is far from perfect, and probably trending in the wrong direction, but it is worse for most people on Earth. In fact I live in one of the safest place and times in all human history. No one has been as free as we are now.

Severian

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Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 12:20:42 PM

However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce.

I have to disagree. This government has proven itself nothing but unreasonable. The unreason that emanates from DC results in more evil than good in this world.

They may be able to force some people and exchanges to pay up with the usual threats, but why would a reasonable person willingly want to cooperate with evil?

RodeoX

legendary

Activity: 3066

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Severian on June 14, 2013, 11:18:45 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on June 14, 2013, 09:57:15 AM

I suppose if you have built your world around the idea that the government is an evil institution who's secret plans are to get you, then you will read this as evidence of their scheming.

The evidence of their scheming is the fact that the US govt. has just admitted to the largest spying operation, on its own citizens, in history.

Quote

f your problem is that any regulation is unwelcome, then stick to shitcoins.

If you don't like BTC, why do you hang around this forum?

Let me explain. First the shitcoin thing. Shitcoin is one of the many alt coins out there. I do not think it has a future at all, so I was suggesting that bitcoiners who want to live tax free should focus on such an alt coin and leave bitcoin alone. Bitcoin does have a future.
I am NOT a fan of regulation and feel that regulation often "kills the golden goose". However it is not unreasonable that the government demand their share of tax revenue, just like all other commerce. Without guidance on how that will be accomplished few serious businesses will risk accepting BTC for payment. That is why I welcome some non-destructive regulation.
I don't like how my taxes are used. As you point out the government is not without scandal and has done many immoral and illegal things. But that is another issue.

Severian

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Quote from: Vanderi on June 14, 2013, 11:30:00 AM

Yeah wth is that guys problem, "shitcoins" ffs

It is an odd sentiment for a lifetime member of the Bitcoin Foundation to express.

Vanderi

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Yeah wth is that guys problem, "shitcoins" ffs

Topic: 2013-06-13 Latest from FinCEN - page 4. (Read 6963 times)