280 BTC total bets between Micon and mrb (are BFL ASICs real?) - page 25.

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

Quote from: casascius on January 22, 2013, 05:19:44 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 22, 2013, 05:14:57 PM

Casascius - can you generate an escrow invitation for Micon and I on this bet?

If I'm to generate a code for a real money bet, I would prefer to use e-mail and/or PGP wherever it isn't too inconvenient, so perhaps you can PM me your e-mail address or a link to your PGP key if you're able to decrypt it. (I just don't want all the escrow details to be in plaintext in the forum database where others can see it)

oh certainly send both parts of the invites off-bitcointalk in some fashion. I'm fine with a plain-text email from you on this 1 C

and again, TYTYTYTYTYTY for making this system casascius.

also tytytytyty to dooglus for an explanation of C's system that is concise & accurate.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1027

Quote from: casascius on January 22, 2013, 04:35:25 PM

I sent a PM with an escrow invitation code to both Micon and mrb for a coin flip.

Micon, I PM'd you a payment invitation for this test -- the address is below and I already sent 0.001 BTC to it:
http://blockchain.info/address/1JUsk88BGbZbRs3R3JoKxeR4Mc9sxf74kQ

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 22, 2013, 05:14:57 PM

Casascius - can you generate an escrow invitation for Micon and I on this bet?

If I'm to generate a code for a real money bet, I would prefer to use e-mail and/or PGP wherever it isn't too inconvenient, so perhaps you can PM me your e-mail address or a link to your PGP key if you're able to decrypt it. (I just don't want all the escrow details to be in plaintext in the forum database where others can see it)

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 21, 2013, 03:39:09 PM

Quote from: Micon on January 21, 2013, 03:17:43 AM

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 20, 2013, 07:15:26 PM

Quote from: Micon on January 19, 2013, 04:04:02 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 19, 2013, 02:13:28 PM

No Micon, I do not want to make the same bet you and MRB made. That bet is also based on whether they meet specific MH/Joule requirements, which I do not want to bet on. I want to bet on them delivering an ASIC device that works (creates valid hashes for the Bitcoin network) by the end of 2013, regardless of speed or power usage to at least two forum members that prove they are running (video or pictures or ??).

If you believe they aren't going to deliver (which is what you keep stating over and over again), you shouldn't have any problem with this.

When making a wager, both sides must agree. If you look at mrb's and my discussion, a standard practice is to suggest terms, then refine on both sides until both parties agree.

To have a 20 coin bet with me I would like:

-- statement of a certain Mhash/Joule that proves that this BFL ASIC is a significant step up from the current top miners - that is the point of ASIC - to hash the proof-of-work problem much faster and more energy efficient than current FPGAs, as I understand it the current top dog - they claim ~ 20x-30x as fast right? current FPGA top metrics around 25 Mhash/Joule? Let's find a number you and I are both comfortable with it - as your statement reads, BFL could ship you some thumbdrive that creates 1 valid hash using your CPU and you would win the bet.

Also there is no need for taunting - I won't say to you "why won't you bet me at same terms if you are so sure BFL will ship an ASIC based on specs they describe?" - I will simply go back and forth and list out the terms that would make me accept the wager.

What about a statement such as 10x shipments at 5x current top Mhash/Joule ratings? And excuse the newb-ness to mining, but what is top Mhash/J ATM? it is FPGA cards?

Fair enough - I shall taunt no more.

I'll bet that BFL will put out at least as efficient as Avalon's advertised specs. So that's 400w @ 60GH/s. Is that agreeable? It is a vast improvement over even FPGA's, where 60 GH/s would consume almost 6,000w.

I'd rather not go as high as 10 end customers, simply because it might be difficult to find 10 individuals willing to post proof of ASIC delivery. I'm not sure that there's even 10 different people who have posted pictures of FPGA's.

So then, my new bet proposal is this:

I'll bet 20 BTC that BFL will ship out an ASIC miner capable of at least 150MH/s per watt to at least 3 end customers by the end of 2013.

You have a bet if you make it by 7/1/2013 - they said they ship in Feb. and I don't want to wait all year for this bet to settle. Those 40 coins could be worth $10k by then and I may need a WSOP main even buy in

I feel 7/1 is more than fair given the current timeframe directly from BFL, it keeps everything nice and clean for me, and even allows you months and months of further delays past their posted timeframe. If BFL is real, this seems like an easy win for you under these terms.

Ok, I can agree to those terms.

What's the next step? I don't entirely understand Casascuis' escrow system yet...

Casascius - can you generate an escrow invitation for Micon and I on this bet?

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1330

Quote from: mrb on January 22, 2013, 04:32:12 PM

Dooglus, you need to install the Ubuntu package I mention a few comments above...

Thanks. It took me a while to find the post you meant. It was this, in case anyone else needs it:

Quote from: mrb on January 21, 2013, 05:20:54 AM

Ok, I installed Mono (and libmono-system-windows-forms4.0-cil which is needed to run casascius's app)

It works for me now, and seems pretty straightforward.

Here's how it works, with a worked example:

'be an escrow agent' creates an escrow invitation, which is in two parts A and B:

Quote

A: einvaT9CMj3qdZQZejm9DSse9c9MXNk5udVN2SQhTRJ6GKwJiX8wvukbK2fZ2ZkNo5LqmiMBfJNnLUDYoXYLo9XPa dvW38NbGo34LNLf9b
and
B: einvbT9CMj1gj74paurHWzgX4UeCpDgKUdiftFVdQxxYct23YMD2dAcfXd49dp61cpDRoK3sPbgKypXwR1h5ts9Bw CtWBJpUAvTvTvRabW

'be a payee' takes one of these codes (A) and creates a payment invitation (P):

Quote

P: einvpT9CMj791RwFxhxZMX37bTYXLabdw9sgM6iekpjjacUvDXf8rYMTYXeozySvW5tRUs6HwsyUuYbYuqm2xR66G YG6a9ArfDve4eQQsW
and an address:
14xEG5KnP1F5Y4ShstgSYT5hQeeqrWnMTp

'be a payer' takes the other escrow invitation code (B) and the payment invitation (P), and creates the same address:

Quote

14xEG5KnP1F5Y4ShstgSYT5hQeeqrWnMTp

After all that:

Quote

Escrow agent has A and B
Payee has A and P
Payer has B and P
Nobody has A and B and P

So all 3 parties have a different 2 of the 3 required pieces of information.

'collect your funds' takes all 3 codes (A, B, P) and creates both the address and its private key:

Quote

14xEG5KnP1F5Y4ShstgSYT5hQeeqrWnMTp
and
5JEiXmgXFYRxjPavisSaw5ipYAVpTjM5Vf7Xga33mrmyiBY834H

https://www.bitaddress.org/ has a 'wallet details' tab which confirms that that is the correct private key for the given address.

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

I sent a PM with an escrow invitation code to both Micon and mrb for a coin flip.

Seems to me that cooking this program into a command line version for escrow activities might not be a bad idea. I have cut out all the "model" classes into their own folder so the UI is totally replaceable (done for iPhone). All of the crypto magic is done in those classes. Making a command line edition of this that would be more linux-friendly wouldn't be a bad idea and importantly would not be that difficult.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1027

Dooglus, you need to install the Ubuntu package I mention a few comments above...

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1330

Quote from: Micon on January 21, 2013, 11:28:23 PM

since no one else has really played with this tech I would trust dooglus to download that btc-address.zip from C and generate us the a & b escrow codes (and in essence agree to be our arbiter)

Way ahead of you... I downloaded it yesterday, but couldn't get it to run:

Quote

chris@chris:~/Programs/btcaddress$ mono BtcAddress.exe

Unhandled Exception: System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'BtcAddress.Program' from assembly 'BtcAddress, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.
[ERROR] FATAL UNHANDLED EXCEPTION: System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'BtcAddress.Program' from assembly 'BtcAddress, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.
chris@chris:~/Programs/btcaddress$ lsb_release -a
LSB Version:   core-2.0-amd64:core-2.0-noarch:core-3.0-amd64:core-3.0-noarch:core-3.1-amd64:core-3.1-noarch:core-3.2-amd64:core-3.2-noarch:core-4.0-amd64:core-4.0-noarch
Distributor ID:   Ubuntu
Description:   Ubuntu 12.10
Release:   12.10
Codename:   quantal
chris@chris:~/Programs/btcaddress$ dpkg -l | grep mono
ii fonts-tlwg-mono 1:0.5.0-5 all Thai TlwgMono font
ii libmono-addins-gui0.2-cil 0.6.2-2 all GTK# frontend library for Mono.Addins
ii libmono-addins0.2-cil 0.6.2-2 all addin framework for extensible CLI applications/libraries
ii libmono-cairo4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono Cairo library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-corlib4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono core library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-csharp4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono.CSharp library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-i18n-west4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono I18N.West library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-i18n4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono I18N base library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-posix4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono.Posix library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-security4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono Security library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-sharpzip4.84-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono SharpZipLib library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system-configuration4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System.Configuration library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system-core4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System.Core library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system-drawing4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System.Drawing library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system-security4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System.Security library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system-xml4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System.Xml library (for CLI 4.0)
ii libmono-system4.0-cil 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono System libraries (for CLI 4.0)
ii mono-4.0-gac 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono GAC tool (for CLI 4.0)
ii mono-gac 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 all Mono GAC tool
ii mono-runtime 2.10.8.1-5ubuntu1 amd64 Mono runtime
ii ubuntu-mono 0.0.49 all Ubuntu Mono Icon theme
chris@chris:~/Programs/btcaddress$

What am I doing wrong?

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

I'm in.

further more I'll do the coin flip for 1 full btc if mrb wants to

you can ustream it if you really want

or skype to me and I can ustream it on my channel.

I know C is not the only 1 to generate escrow codes, but since no one else has really played with this tech I would trust dooglus to download that btc-address.zip from C and generate us the a & b escrow codes (and in essence agree to be our arbiter)

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

I can do another pair but am replying from my phone so will have to do that later.

Even if I had a debug version, if I can get the x and y values your version thinks were used, the code could be hand recovered with a calculator. The x value is totally represented in the A code and the y value is fully represented in the B code. If you have Gx and y, and someone else has Gy and x, and the sameness of the result proves the product of these two is the same for both cases, there is no question about the recoverability of x and y given both (assuming I didn't somehow give the same Gx and y to both parties and lose the x value, which is impossible in this case given that I have already successfully recovered a private key for a bitcoin address you provided based on that escrow invitation pair.)

This is why I insist you both get the same Bitcoin address independently... Your ability to do so counts as proof of so many little things all along the way.

Tonight though... I will generate another pair. You can each contribute 0.01 BTC and I will flip a coin and award it at random.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1027

Good idea. We don't have to bet on a real-world event. Let's just do a test with .001 BTC each. Let's decide that you "win", and you can keep the coins for this test.

Casascius: I think it is important that *you* generate us another (a,b) pair the exact same way you generated them so far. What if you accidentally run a version of BtcAddress.exe that happens to be a debug version you accidentally left on your system in your PATH that generates invite/escrow codes that fail to lead to a valid private key? I don't know. I am just being overly cautious here. I am a software veteran and can think of dozen of bugs why this wouldn't work, although I am 99% sure everything works, as you said the bitcoin address is the same.

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

You can also generate your own escrow code sets and see it work for yourself. I don't have a secret weapon on escrow invitation codes, I just used the same program, the only magic I have added by generating it myself is the willingness to intervene in a dispute if needed, which isn't needed for testing. You can generate unlimited code sets on the "be an escrow agent" screen and practice funding and claiming funds like 0.01 BTC.

I haven't had time to work on the code (just been catching up on orders since CES- almost done) but I expect to fix the save and print buttons so it will be easier as the escrow agent to manage deals. And fix that message about "you used your own code" when you didn't. Soon though, unless someone beats me to it.

Also... Just so you know, the fact that you are seeing the same Bitcoin address from the A vs the B code is a pretty viable proof everything worked the way it should, since the A code and the B code are totally different codes, they just share a provable mathematical property that, if not true, could never result in the same Bitcoin address coming from the independent address generation process done by both parties.

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

mrb - do you want to do a 1 bitcoin bet on something arbitrary that is happening tomorrow (like a cricket match or some other sporting event with a 50/50 chance, really anything with a spread) and do it with the escrow system, generate one winner, and basically verify it works before we start dumping coin after coin into a black-hole btc address? (I'm not saying C isn't on point here, I'd lay 10-1 that this shit works perfectly, but you know, just good practice to try it with 1 coin before increasing the bet to $1700 USD and climbing)

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: SgtSpike on January 21, 2013, 06:16:43 PM

Alright, that makes sense. How do we generate the Bitcoin address from the code? (windows machine here...)

Assuming I have sent you the Escrow Invitation code, go to the "Be a Payee" screen, paste the invitation code, and click "generate a payment invitation".

This will give you two things: a code that starts with "einvp" and a bitcoin address. Send both of these to Micon (and not to me, at least do not share or publish the "einvp" code to anyone but Micon). If he is able to generate the same bitcoin address with your "einvp" code as well as the "einvb" invitation I sent him, and you both can verify that, then you're good to go, and can pay the address.

mrb

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1027

Quote from: Micon on January 21, 2013, 05:33:28 PM

Quote from: mrb on January 21, 2013, 02:07:12 PM

Casascius: ok.

Micon: let's raise the stakes. I feel confident about using Casascius' self-escrow app. Can we put down at least an additional 90 BTC each?

I am interested in betting more as well. Some of my close poker associates are watching the entire BFL thread & this bet thread. Give me 24 hrs and let me see how much interest there is with my friends, and either way I'll personally fire more coin on BFL failure on a very similar statement than what we already have.

Ok. Let me know as soon as you are ready to send 90 BTC. I can send my coins first.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Alright, that makes sense. How do we generate the Bitcoin address from the code? (windows machine here...)

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: dooglus on January 21, 2013, 05:39:42 PM

Anyone with the private key can spend the contents.

The cool part about this is nobody has the private key, yet there's no reason to sweat it.

All that is known is that the private key can expected to be calculated by the eventual winner.

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

Merit: 1330

Quote from: Micon on January 21, 2013, 05:33:28 PM

anyone like dooglus do that forensics on that address yet? Kinda wanna see what happens / if it's cool / if it works, etc.

I took a look and noticed that there are two 10 payments of 10 BTC each to the address and that both transactions were included in the same block. Other than that I don't see what else there is to see. It's a regular bitcoin address like any other. Anyone with the private key can spend the contents. I can't tell whether the address was created using casascius' escrow code, the standard bitcoin client, or anything else.

Micon

legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

Quote from: mrb on January 21, 2013, 02:07:12 PM

Casascius: ok.

Micon: let's raise the stakes. I feel confident about using Casascius' self-escrow app. Can we put down at least an additional 90 BTC each?

I am interested in betting more as well. Some of my close poker associates are watching the entire BFL thread & this bet thread. Give me 24 hrs and let me see how much interest there is with my friends, and either way I'll personally fire more coin on BFL failure on a very similar statement than what we already have.

anyone like dooglus do that forensics on that address yet? Kinda wanna see what happens / if it's cool / if it works, etc.

casascius

vip

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1136

The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: Micon on January 21, 2013, 05:01:36 PM

Casascuis would send us 2 parts of an invite code - one starting envsomethignA and one starting envsomethingB we both put the codes as either the "payer" or the "payee" and we generate the same bitcoin address. When one of us conceeds, the loser sends the winner the invite code they don't have. Winners puts both codes together in this btc-address program C will have to give you to download and somehow that generates the private key and then somehow those coins can then move at your whim. I hope

Exactly.

And if neither side is willing to concede, I have the both codes the other needs, so I can force it if I need to.

Very briefly, the mathematical basis is a three-factor elliptic curve multiplication equation where the two participants only know two of the factors plus an elliptic curve point related to the factor they don't have. That's enough for them both to generate a bitcoin address whose private key would be produced with all three factors, without having all three. When the loser concedes to the winner (or the escrow agent forces it), the loser gives the winner the invitation code that contains the factor he doesn't have, so the winner ends up with all 3 factors, and the program is able to compute the private key with simple multiplication.

Topic: 280 BTC total bets between Micon and mrb (are BFL ASICs real?) - page 25. (Read 46374 times)