$5000 per coin will never happen if PoW mining is allowed to continue

funtotry

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Quote from: arsenische on October 27, 2014, 08:59:45 PM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 11:25:47 AM

All Bitcoin holders are essentially charged a 10% tax per year, perpetually, by the PoW mining network. How can this be sustainable?

How did you come with perpetual annual 10% tax? I think this is quite a pessimistic expectation.

But even it it is correct, don't forget that global economy grows.

Let's say it grows ~5% per year and this growth is not absorbed by monetary emission, so the tax becomes ~5%, that is much, much better than in many countries. Do you feel it is sustainable?

Oh, and don't forget about few percents you implicitly pay everytime you use your credit card (even when you pay in cash, it is priced in!)

Btw, at these early days bitcoin economy is supposed to grow much faster than 10%/year, so it is not inflationary, it is deflationary by nature.

Current price ignores it though because it is driven by speculators' expectations and it will continue to do so until Bitcoin becomes mature or vanishes.

Well as of now the monitory inflation rate of bitcoin is ~13%, as roughly 1,300,000 bitcoin will be mined in the next year verses roughly 10,000,000 bitcoin already mined.

It would be possible (and some people would argue probable) that the overall value of bitcoin will increase by more then this amount this year for a number of reasons, which would negate the monitory inflation and have real deflation.

Also it is important to note that the monitory inflation rate will decline over time as the rate at which new bitcoin are created will decline over time while the total number of bitcoin that have been mined will increase

Unbelive

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Quote from: arsenische on October 28, 2014, 01:44:42 AM

Quote from: Peegasus on October 28, 2014, 12:53:09 AM

So, you mean there is a chance for BTC to reach $5000? No really, really?

Don't ask, model it yourself: http://worldbitcoinnetwork.com/BitcoinPriceModel-Alpha.html

nice application. But is hard to predict even if you have such help. Or better is impossible to predict what will happen even 3 months from now. It all moves so fast.

arsenische

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Quote from: Peegasus on October 28, 2014, 12:53:09 AM

So, you mean there is a chance for BTC to reach $5000? No really, really?

Don't ask, model it yourself: http://worldbitcoinnetwork.com/BitcoinPriceModel-Alpha.html

Peegasus

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So, you mean there is a chance for BTC to reach $5000? No really, really?

arsenische

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Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 11:25:47 AM

All Bitcoin holders are essentially charged a 10% tax per year, perpetually, by the PoW mining network. How can this be sustainable?

How did you come with perpetual annual 10% tax? I think this is quite a pessimistic expectation.

But even it it is correct, don't forget that global economy grows.

Let's say it grows ~5% per year and this growth is not absorbed by monetary emission, so the tax becomes ~5%, that is much, much better than in many countries. Do you feel it is sustainable?

Oh, and don't forget about few percents you implicitly pay everytime you use your credit card (even when you pay in cash, it is priced in!)

Btw, at these early days bitcoin economy is supposed to grow much faster than 10%/year, so it is not inflationary, it is deflationary by nature.

Current price ignores it though because it is driven by speculators' expectations and it will continue to do so until Bitcoin becomes mature or vanishes.

becker

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I don't understand all the complaining, if you don't like Bitcoin, don't use it. Why go around complaining it's not like another coin that exists.

I personally like proof of work, it gets people to play with crypto without "direct" monetary investment. My complaint about crypto in general isn't with mining but the notion that once you select an algo you stick with it forever. Imo, it should be changed periodically, just to keep asics at bay, and keep the barrier for newbie miners to tinker and get involved in crypto.

But I can go to another coin for mining to.

DumbFruit

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Quote from: LeChatNoir on October 27, 2014, 04:04:01 PM

Please show me how you attack PPC or NXT or BTSX without spending 1$, don't tell me how you would do that, just do that.

To be fair, the Nothing at Stake attack doesn't mean the attacker spends nothing to do the attack. It means that there's no proof of real-world energy cost upon which consensus can be built, and so forever into the future there is the risk of altering the history to the benefit of the attacker unless some centralized agency intervenes.
So the conclusion is that you can't come to some kind of decentralized consensus with PoS, and trying to do so is just playing with fire.

LeChatNoir

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Quote from: amaclin on October 27, 2014, 04:11:46 PM

Quote

Please show me how you attack PPC or NXT or BTSX without spending 1$, don't tell me how you would do that, just do that.

Not today, man.
There is no reason to attack any PoS currency today.
But times are going to change.

LOL, pathetic bitcoiners.

amaclin

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Quote

Please show me how you attack PPC or NXT or BTSX without spending 1$, don't tell me how you would do that, just do that.

Not today, man.
There is no reason to attack any PoS currency today.
But times are going to change.

LeChatNoir

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Quote from: AlexSm on October 26, 2014, 10:42:21 AM

PoW mining will continue until someone comes up with a way to distribute wealth as fairly as PoW, so far PoS is not even a candidate.

PoW distributes wealth fairly?
How the hell is that i had to pay big bucks to buy some last year?
There was some mining company willing to give away BTC for free and i didn't know?

Quote from: opossum on October 27, 2014, 05:37:21 AM

Another major issue is that under PoS is that it will essentially cost zero to attack the network.

Please show me how you attack PPC or NXT or BTSX without spending 1$, don't tell me how you would do that, just do that.

bbit

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Quote from: James222 on October 26, 2014, 10:50:14 AM

I'm sure that many companies don't keep their wealth in BTC, they just exchange it for $. Am I the only one who thinks that ASIC companies will be the first ones to leave if bitcoin collapses?

I have a feeling you could be right about this.

amaclin

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Quote

Shhhh... Nothing-at-stake doesn't exist!
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

manuscripts do not burn Grin

https://web.archive.org/web/20140725235856/http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

DumbFruit

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Quote from: opossum on October 27, 2014, 05:37:21 AM

Another major issue is that under PoS is that it will essentially cost zero to attack the network.

Shhhh... Nothing-at-stake doesn't exist!

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

amaclin

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Quote

This is not true. In order to attack a PoW network, you will need to prove that you have done work which means that you would actually need to do work which means you would need to spend money on electricity which means that such attack is not free

I will organize miners in my pool advertising +5% earnings comparing to other pools.
I will not pay significant amount for electricity. Miners who calculates sha256d will. Grin

OK, the attack is not "free". But very cheap. More cheaper than everyone thinks.

opossum

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Quote from: amaclin on October 27, 2014, 05:47:02 AM

Quote

Another major issue is that under PoS is that it will essentially cost zero to attack the network.

Sorry to tell you that in PoW the attack costs zero too. No future for all cryptos exists.

This is not true. In order to attack a PoW network, you will need to prove that you have done work which means that you would actually need to do work which means you would need to spend money on electricity which means that such attack is not free

amaclin

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Quote

Another major issue is that under PoS is that it will essentially cost zero to attack the network.

Sorry to tell you that in PoW the attack costs zero too. No future for all cryptos exists.

opossum

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Quote from: AlexSm on October 26, 2014, 10:42:21 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 11:25:47 AM

PoW mining currently transfers $500 million USD worth of wealth out of the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of pools/miners/asic hardware vendor/electricity company.

This wealth transfer will go on, perpetually, as long as PoW mining exists. Because, as long as Bitcoin relies on PoW mining to secure the network, the expense will exist, and it can
not be cheap (otherwise attack on the network will be cheap and easy too).

In order for Bitcoin price to rise, there has to be at least more than $500 million of new money to enter the eco-system, every year, just to maintain the current price.

All Bitcoin holders are essentially charged a 10% tax per year, perpetually, by the PoW mining network. How can this be sustainable?

PoW mining will continue until someone comes up with a way to distribute wealth as fairly as PoW, so far PoS is not even a candidate.

You make a very good point that PoS mining effectively forces the distribution of a coin to stay the same, however this is not the only weakness of PoS mining. Another major issue is that under PoS is that it will essentially cost zero to attack the network.

While I do agree that PoW does give miners a large incentive to sell their newly mined coins as soon as they mine them, I would not necessarily consider this a bad thing, as this will likely cause the distribution of coins to be much more even then it is today

James222

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Wassup?

I'm sure that many companies don't keep their wealth in BTC, they just exchange it for $. Am I the only one who thinks that ASIC companies will be the first ones to leave if bitcoin collapses?

Turnkey

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If they disallow PoW mining now there would be a huge protest as many companies and individuals have put a large investment in mining tools and i think they have made plans for several years in advance.

onemorebtc

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Quote from: AlexSm on October 26, 2014, 10:42:21 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 23, 2014, 11:25:47 AM

PoW mining currently transfers $500 million USD worth of wealth out of the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of pools/miners/asic hardware vendor/electricity company.

This wealth transfer will go on, perpetually, as long as PoW mining exists. Because, as long as Bitcoin relies on PoW mining to secure the network, the expense will exist, and it can
not be cheap (otherwise attack on the network will be cheap and easy too).

In order for Bitcoin price to rise, there has to be at least more than $500 million of new money to enter the eco-system, every year, just to maintain the current price.

All Bitcoin holders are essentially charged a 10% tax per year, perpetually, by the PoW mining network. How can this be sustainable?

PoW mining will continue until someone comes up with a way to distribute wealth as fairly as PoW, so far PoS is not even a candidate.

its not only about distribution... its also the only way to get a distributed consesus (i will count POS only IF there are enough security experts which has tested it - and i dont think that will ever happen)

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