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Topic: A Public Plea for Civility (Read 4965 times)

newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
September 20, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
#49
Even we newbies, coming with press transported hopes and illusions can see, that this forum is an undemocratic, inbreeding chain - letter, where moderators, heromembers
are colluding to skin us off.
If this is a false impression, I appologize , but then tell me , how the highest authority is allowed to leave this post uncommented:

Theymos thinks that by ignoring criticism, that people here will forget or overlook his active roles in the scams.

This place is a sewer of scam artists and miscellaneous bottom feeders, including some of the admins.


Still no problem here....everybody should be free to sell anybody some bridges.....this is free human will.......and for that I like this place.....but privileging some
in this game is wrong......there must be a higher moral standard and integrity to people , who are handed the power over others.....and when evidently attained
the ordour of dishonesty and greed in their behaviour those powers have to be taken away or any attempt at civility is completly in vain !
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
September 20, 2012, 05:15:35 PM
#48
Even we newbies, coming with press transported hopes and illusions can see, that this forum is an undemocratic, inbreeding chain - letter, where moderators, heromembers
are colluding to skin us off.
If this is a false impression, I appologize , but then tell me , how the highest authority is allowed to leave this post uncommented:

Theymos thinks that by ignoring criticism, that people here will forget or overlook his active roles in the scams.

This place is a sewer of scam artists and miscellaneous bottom feeders, including some of the admins.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
September 19, 2012, 09:05:28 AM
#47
I think it would be in the very best interest of the community not to let obvious scams run rampant on this forum.

You say freedom of speech. Well, people can run scams, but why should people that come to this (i suppose the larget bitcoin forum), be exposed for it here, and I also think that such operations should not be allowed to run ads here.

If the mods and admins do not want to 'censor' such criminal enterprises, then perhaps there should be some feature that people could use that would lable users and threads that are likely to be scams, as such.

To avoid being scammed in this community it seems you need to be super paranoid and having a engineers degree. Smiley Of course, the old saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is" is still valid.

I don't think known scammers and schemes that are 99.9999999% sure to be frauds should not have any place whatsoever in this forum.


There will always be scammers and frauds, but I don't think we should support them or avoid taking actions because of 'freedom of speech'.


obvious scams, likely scams are not proven scams   am not asking to take anything down but asking for consequences to the powers of moderators and administrators
when they try to or actually profited in proven scams !
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
September 19, 2012, 08:51:20 AM
#46
I think it would be in the very best interest of the community not to let obvious scams run rampant on this forum.

You say freedom of speech. Well, people can run scams, but why should people that come to this (i suppose the larget bitcoin forum), be exposed for it here, and I also think that such operations should not be allowed to run ads here.

If the mods and admins do not want to 'censor' such criminal enterprises, then perhaps there should be some feature that people could use that would lable users and threads that are likely to be scams, as such.

To avoid being scammed in this community it seems you need to be super paranoid and having a engineers degree. Smiley Of course, the old saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is" is still valid.

I don't think known scammers and schemes that are 99.9999999% sure to be frauds should not have any place whatsoever in this forum.


There will always be scammers and frauds, but I don't think we should support them or avoid taking actions because of 'freedom of speech'.
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1000
September 19, 2012, 08:40:57 AM
#45
Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Thats part of the freedom of speech of course and I fully support!, but....
Moderators and administrators with their special powers are not accountable when profiting from proven scams???


proven scam != likely scam
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
September 19, 2012, 08:36:24 AM
#44
Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Thats part of the freedom of speech of course and I fully support!, but....
Moderators and administrators with their special powers are not accountable when profiting from proven scams???
not even needing to fear that those brotherhoodly gained powers are being taken away or even questioned ?


Even we newbies, coming with press transported hopes and illusions can see, that this forum is an undemocratic, inbreeding chain - letter, where moderators, heromembers
are colluding to skin us off.
If this is a false impression, I appologize , but then tell me , how the highest authority is allowed to leave this post uncommented:

I don't trust any PPT operators.

Theymos (who admits knowledge of and engagement in fraud) and other forum admins (shills) also helped Pirate and PPT operators by facilitating their promotion and encouraging/stickying Patrick's bogus ratings.

best posts:

How about you do a big public apology first to all the people that warned you, but that you have been shouting down and insulting for over 6 months and more importantly,  to the people who trusted your judgement, but that you misled by pretending you knew more than you really did?

The same goes for the rest of the pirate promo team who are now all pretending to be only victims fighting for the righteous cause.

I'd strongly advise filing complaints with whatever information you already have and adding any extra information you have as it comes in.  The longer it takes before those who can access all sorts of information about Trendon Shavers which this community cannot start investigating, the more opportunity he has to muddy the trail.

I also believe that it if it was legitimate to ask Bitcoin Magazine to distance itself from Matthew, it is equally legitimate to ask the other members of GPUMax to distance themselves from Trendon and to make a public statement regarding his current role in relation to that entity and whether or not GPUMax itself had any exposure to BS&T (we know that they shared a wallet, but we have no idea to what extent the businesses may have crossed over in other ways).

I doubt very much that no-one closely associated with Trendon knew what he was doing.  It's likely some were complicit in his fraud.

Will this auspicious collection of righteous souls also be going after the Pass Through operators who made a tidy little profit shilling for pirate, handling the recruitment of his victims, performing the actual transfer of his victim's funds into his scheme and now all want to so handily hide behind his skirt and claim no culpability?

Seems somehow disingenuous for anyone involved as a co-conspirator to get involved in an effort to track down the bad guy. Of course, OJ claimed he was hunting for his ex-wife's killer while still wiping the warm blood off his gloves, so I guess nothing should surprise us any more.


And drop the potentially. If this effort isn't already exploring every possible legal avenue with full disclosure and cooperation from every PPT operator to help out the investigation on behalf of the victims that you helped create, then this is clearly a scheme for a little extra taste for the poor junior boys who didn't make out like true bandits at the big people's table.

And I have been a very interested observer as you have learned how to put together your ventures. Your learning process has been very public. You just need to think about tightening up on the details now that investment mogul has turned to as-yet uncharged con-conspirator. You are standing at that crossroads where you have to decide who you are- a scummy little sycophant who is trying to bluff his way out of responsibility with empty words, or a man of honor who will do the right thing, and own his mistake, be honest about it, and work to make it better. And perhaps, a small note of humility and contrition?
[/quote]

[/quote]


The fish stinks from the head and some slates need to be wiped clean, if bitcoin wants to get not only the smoke and mirrors image intended by this forum but rather
the factual trustworthyness, inherently given by its technical properties!

Lets see how far there is still a freedom of speech ingrained at this place
left alone consequences to damaging groupthink  Shocked Huh Wink
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
August 30, 2012, 04:27:29 PM
#43
Marketplace, securities, lending, etc. would be removed it were up to me. Pirate and pass-through operators and ponzi copycats and "mining biz" loan-takers should start a forum for themselves on bitcoinhyip.biz.

+1

The entire marketplace on a system based around a method of exchange should be removed? Smart. Idiots will always soon be parted from their money, as they always have been. This will never change. Scamming is one thing, but a holder of assets can not claim to have no responsibility in the matter.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
August 30, 2012, 03:05:25 PM
#42
Marketplace, securities, lending, etc. would be removed it were up to me. Pirate and pass-through operators and ponzi copycats and "mining biz" loan-takers should start a forum for themselves on bitcoinhyip.biz.

+1
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
August 30, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
#41
The problem really lies in the Marketplace, where posts are over run by random dumb comments. If someone post a security, goods, or services type post why do people feel the need to comment if they can not contribute?
[..snip..]
But what are we to do as the whole? I think the Market place needs a overhaul really bad with stricter posting guidelines.

The problem with the Marketplace is that its overrun by "give me money" scams and ponzis. "Give me money and I'll give you back a percentage of it" scams are extremely anti-civil and damaging to the community and to the economy.

The dumb clutter is all the comments like "he paid me back 20BTC so I just gave him 2,000 BTC Smiley two thumbs up. trustworthy guy with high rating". Everyone can see where that logic got them with pirate.

Marketplace, securities, lending, etc. would be removed it were up to me. Pirate and pass-through operators and ponzi copycats and "mining biz" loan-takers should start a forum for themselves on bitcoinhyip.biz.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
August 30, 2012, 01:56:53 PM
#40
The problem really lies in the Marketplace, where posts are over run by random dumb comments. If someone post a security, goods, or services type post why do people feel the need to comment if they can not contribute? I have had one person follow me around on this forum like a lost puppy dog since the first day I signed up its sad but amusing. Other people might not want to put up with that mess and just want do business.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/glbsebitcoinminv-3rd-dividend-paid-still-got-some-stock-left-98767 Think its the 2nd post lol
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-bitcoin-credit-agency-update-99542 4th post not so bad but still I think he follows me cause he likes me lol.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ideaproject-bitcoin-credit-agency-99556 last post.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/paid-helpclosed-need-some-website-work-done-104547 And today......

For the most part his comments are just noise and space clutter, but that's the type of thing that scares away other people. As people get older they tend to put up with less of this nonsense, and no body should really stand for it. But what are we to do as the whole? I think the Market place needs a overhaul really bad with stricter posting guidelines.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Ad astra.
August 29, 2012, 10:53:26 PM
#39
VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

Of course, the large proportion of Bitcoin businesses that are actually Ponzi schemes - and the perhaps even larger proportion that are indistinguishable from Ponzis - would never cause anyone to conclude that the media is right. Roll Eyes (Not to mention all the various self-described ponzis of varying degrees of honesty.)

I also notice that all the people who have been screaming "troll!", "liar!", "put your money where your mouth is or shut up", etc at anyone who points out just how shady all the investment schemes on here are somehow don't feature in your plea for civility. Funny that.

+1.

I, for one, actually feel that at this point most people are not really ready for Bitcoin and Bitcoin is not really ready for them in some ways either.  I've said that in another recent post, but I forgot which one it was.

Probably the people who power through the negative posts that are (supposed to be) ubiquitous on these forums are slightly more ready to navigate the Bitcoin world than those who would be turned away by them.  No harm done IMHO...but I'm not trying to run either a legitimate business or a scam off Bitcoin, nor do I need my speculative investment in BTC to bear fruit...well...ever, so other people may feel differently.



I agree, but that is no reason to dissuade people from Bitcoin unused to the toxicity forum communities can have. The question is not 'what are we doing entirely wrong' insomuch as 'how can we improve'.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Ad astra.
August 29, 2012, 10:46:33 PM
#38
VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

Of course, the large proportion of Bitcoin businesses that are actually Ponzi schemes - and the perhaps even larger proportion that are indistinguishable from Ponzis - would never cause anyone to conclude that the media is right. Roll Eyes (Not to mention all the various self-described ponzis of varying degrees of honesty.)

I also notice that all the people who have been screaming "troll!", "liar!", "put your money where your mouth is or shut up", etc at anyone who points out just how shady all the investment schemes on here are somehow don't feature in your plea for civility. Funny that.

The vast majority of that would fall under III, but if you think I should add an additional section, I'm all ears. I entirely agree that Bitcoin investments are shady, and many are Ponzi schemes. There is, however, a distinct difference between logical assertions made once and endlessly repeated 'PONZI! SCAMMER! DON'T INVEST' posts and threads. The latter I object to, as I fail to see what they contribute to the community. If you think otherwise, however, I would love to hear your reasoning.
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
August 28, 2012, 10:33:38 PM
#37
VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

Of course, the large proportion of Bitcoin businesses that are actually Ponzi schemes - and the perhaps even larger proportion that are indistinguishable from Ponzis - would never cause anyone to conclude that the media is right. Roll Eyes (Not to mention all the various self-described ponzis of varying degrees of honesty.)

I also notice that all the people who have been screaming "troll!", "liar!", "put your money where your mouth is or shut up", etc at anyone who points out just how shady all the investment schemes on here are somehow don't feature in your plea for civility. Funny that.

+1.

I, for one, actually feel that at this point most people are not really ready for Bitcoin and Bitcoin is not really ready for them in some ways either.  I've said that in another recent post, but I forgot which one it was.

Probably the people who power through the negative posts that are (supposed to be) ubiquitous on these forums are slightly more ready to navigate the Bitcoin world than those who would be turned away by them.  No harm done IMHO...but I'm not trying to run either a legitimate business or a scam off Bitcoin, nor do I need my speculative investment in BTC to bear fruit...well...ever, so other people may feel differently.

hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
Buy this account on March-2019. New Owner here!!
August 28, 2012, 06:03:31 PM
#36

I. Introduction

Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards.

II. Why The Marketplace Matters

Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users.

III. Mud-slinging

We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults.
Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming.

IV. Baseless Accusations

These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one.

V. Fear-mongering

This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself.

VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD

Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that.

VII. Mob Mentalities

Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it!

VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

IX. Addendum: BS&T

First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice.

X. Conclusion

I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it.

Best regards,
BinaryMage

Very well written and I couldn't agree with you more, thank you for taking the  time to express what a lot of us our thinking in such an eloquent way.

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
August 28, 2012, 05:58:20 PM
#35
VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

Of course, the large proportion of Bitcoin businesses that are actually Ponzi schemes - and the perhaps even larger proportion that are indistinguishable from Ponzis - would never cause anyone to conclude that the media is right. Roll Eyes (Not to mention all the various self-described ponzis of varying degrees of honesty.)

I also notice that all the people who have been screaming "troll!", "liar!", "put your money where your mouth is or shut up", etc at anyone who points out just how shady all the investment schemes on here are somehow don't feature in your plea for civility. Funny that.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
August 28, 2012, 04:32:02 PM
#34
In my opinion, the most destructive problems with trolls here occur in the marketplace section. In other areas people are simply discussing ideas, and worse case the authors topic gets derailed and he can always make a new one. With marketplace trolling the damage is more permanent in several ways.

First of all this is a forum centered around a method of exchange, and allowing people to complete those exchanges freely is critical. Second, because there are no charge-backs, as well as lots of fraud, reputation is EXTREMELY important in this environment. Now while trolls might not (usually) completely destroy ones reputation, they certainly are very clearly able to severely inhibit trade by making it appear within a thread, that the trader is attempting some kind of scam. I believe very strongly in preserving free speech, but I think this is being used as a straw man to draw attention away from the fact that no one is countering these trolls.

I am of the opinion that OPs should maintain control over their own marketplace threads only - IE they can delete anyone else's comments.
If some one is abusing this right, there is absolutely nothing stopping every other forum member from making a thread exposing it. Trading here for over a year, even with the bubbles, general volatility, and fraud up the wazoo, by far the most annoying and stressful inhibiting force here is the troll population. In my opinion, it is worse than 4chan, or any other troll haven I have seen in that regard. If Bitcoin is expected to be taken seriously as a trading platform traders need to have more control over their marketplace threads. Otherwise people who might have provided value to the community show up, start trying to trade, and are immediately swarmed by a bunch of dicks driving them off because they assume that is what the community is like. This is not an atmosphere which invites growth or refinement.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
Freelance videographer
August 26, 2012, 06:54:40 AM
#33
I figured that since I only visit this forum occasionally,I should add to the discussion (even if people don't fully agree with me) as to what made me an occasional visitor instead of frequently checking this forum every hour of every day (except when I need to sleep-don't skimp on sleep,it's not good for you) like I used to.One of the reasons I noticed was the fact that like OP of this thread said here,I would witness many otherwise fine threads being turned into flame wars for seemingly no reason,plus the lack of moderation makes it difficult for me to say that I can confidently do business trouble free without the fear of being trolled myself. Civility will only come when the environment here favours/is adapted for this goal,rather than a free for all like it is now.At the end of the day I still have a choice to go to another site (although none are as popular as this forum though) but we should also aim to improve things here so that the environment will let Bitcoin thrive like it ought to really.

I made my own forum in a response to the fact that some people from elsewhere (not just here) were telling me that they were trolled excessively on the internet.My forum covers other topics apart from Bitcoin so there should be something for everyone,I hope.I could use new members/visitors as I wish to see if I can help create a more friendly atmosphere for innovation and exchange of ideas (which itself is the experiment).www.dreamislands.forumup.com is the link for those of you who are interested.I mention this as I wish to show what I'm doing to at least help address some of the concerns raised by OP and that I can aim to make online comunities a better place to be.The ethos is the user experience is key to the users on my forum.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
August 26, 2012, 06:08:29 AM
#32
The liberal way to resolve this could be to label the quality (the number of posts is a sign of quantity). Speculations: People discussing in a civil way should be labeled so, and/or vice-versa. This could be either some voting thing, or a moderator's decision. Or maybe the plea will work and people will respond less to some notorious trolling.

p.s. btw I think I have not encountered the "bad trolls from the past", so congrats on this little progress Grin

The coloured "ignore" label was an attempt at letting the community show its opinion on the value posters bring to the board.  While it doesn't indicate why a particular poster is being ignored by other users, it does serve as a warning that community members have made a choice to ignore that person's posts.  I'm just not sure that it's function is readily apparent to newbies.  And although it's explained in the newbies section, I'm not sure how many people realise that the VIP member status is a bought one and not an indication of the esteem in which the user is held.

The ethos of this board is strongly anti-censorship.  That needs to be remembered when looking to the board administration to enforce a given standard of conduct.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
I heart thebaron
August 26, 2012, 05:01:33 AM
#31
Civility will continue only when it's proven that there is an acceptable level of accountability around here.

I hear that there's a good chance of that happening, if, under the right circumstances.
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
August 25, 2012, 06:10:51 PM
#30
I agree, on one hand there are these completely brilliant ideas of Bitcoin, on the other hand this forum esp. some subjects look irrational / trolling / flame.

Clearly, the forum is liberal and doesn't stop people from some mild misbehaving. It's like from a Stephen King's book, people start misbehaving mildly, and end up misbehaving badly. The liberal way to resolve this could be to label the quality (the number of posts is a sign of quantity). Speculations: People discussing in a civil way should be labeled so, and/or vice-versa. This could be either some voting thing, or a moderator's decision. Or maybe the plea will work and people will respond less to some notorious trolling.

p.s. btw I think I have not encountered the "bad trolls from the past", so congrats on this little progress Grin
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