A Resource Based Economy - page 117.

jtimon

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Quote from: anderxander on May 29, 2011, 01:32:46 PM

Quote from: jtimon on May 29, 2011, 11:54:24 AM

Quote from: anderxander on May 29, 2011, 11:45:39 AM

Look a robot thats going to build straw houses.

openfarmtech.org/forum/discussion/200/a-robot-to-build-a-straw-house

Cool. But it is a technology. Technologies can be used in a communist, a state capitalist or in a libertarian society.
A lot of things need to be improved in our society, but I don't think resources must be managed centrally for that.

Ok where have I said anything about centrally managed resources? The comment was directed at cbeast as an example of someone is actually doing something with these ideas rather than living in dream land. Did you miss all my posts about how I think centrally managed resources and rbe is dumb?

Sorry. My mistake.
I friend of mine who likes the idea of a rbe tries to use technologies as arguments many times. I though you were doing the same here.

anderxander

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Quote from: jtimon on May 29, 2011, 11:54:24 AM

Quote from: anderxander on May 29, 2011, 11:45:39 AM

Look a robot thats going to build straw houses.

openfarmtech.org/forum/discussion/200/a-robot-to-build-a-straw-house

Cool. But it is a technology. Technologies can be used in a communist, a state capitalist or in a libertarian society.
A lot of things need to be improved in our society, but I don't think resources must be managed centrally for that.

Ok where have I said anything about centrally managed resources? The comment was directed at cbeast as an example of someone is actually doing something with these ideas rather than living in dream land. Did you miss all my posts about how I think centrally managed resources and rbe is dumb?

Ruffstylz

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Quote from: anderxander on May 28, 2011, 03:02:37 PM

The Venus project is such a joke. Fresco hasn't gone anywhere in 30 years. One test facility new models and books but 0 progress towards attaining anything they claim. It has been about pushing a vision with hoping to one day see it a reality. But thats where it will remain, a group in a state of hope trying to get people to see. That does not create resource abundance and there is already another system with the same goal that has been in practice for decades. Permaculture. Food forests.
Open-e-farm is a great example of where the technology of abundance is headed. Anyone still supporting venus project should probably jump ship before they waste too much more time and get obboard with a practical functioning set of ideas that solves the problem of producing resource abundance. for bitcoins to truely work their decentralized nature must be matched with decentralized power distribution and the coins themselves becoming the base unit which with things are monetized. So long as we rely on a conversion through dollars to use bitcoins they will fail.

I agree in that Fresco needed TZM to come along and popularise his idea and his ego's now in the floodlight as someone that believes only he knows how to create a resource-based economy; all the world's scientists would fail at it apparently. The Zeitgeist Movement remains as upholders of the central logic that's now unrestricted by Fresco into being fashioned into whatever open source post-scarcity economics works. It's for everyone to put their good ideas into it to make it work.

Ruffstylz

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Hi, I'm interested in Bitcoin.

The force of opposition to someone who approached you to talk about this in a friendly manner is a time-old yawnfest and seems to be equal to a lack of using the can-do creative power you possess to make a resource-based society possible. It doesn't convince me you really CARE, because at some point when discussing humanity and its future you'll have to deal with the awkward issue of, uh... love, and the importance of taking care of each other. One billion people are starving so I want to hear some really, really, really good solutions. Awareness for the cause is being created, because before you can act on an idea you need to imagine it. We're trying to get the world to imagine the idea first so that in the end people will be friendly enough towards it to allow the idea to be tested without being attacked, literally.

jtimon

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Quote from: anderxander on May 29, 2011, 11:45:39 AM

Look a robot thats going to build straw houses.

openfarmtech.org/forum/discussion/200/a-robot-to-build-a-straw-house

Cool. But it is a technology. Technologies can be used in a communist, a state capitalist or in a libertarian society.
A lot of things need to be improved in our society, but I don't think resources must be managed centrally for that.

anderxander

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Look a robot thats going to build straw houses.

openfarmtech.org/forum/discussion/200/a-robot-to-build-a-straw-house

anderxander

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Open source ecology > RBE

openfarmtech.org/wiki/Factor_e_Farm

jtimon

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Quote from: cbeast on May 29, 2011, 10:41:50 AM

Quote from: jtimon on May 29, 2011, 09:17:44 AM

Since no one answered my question, I guess we can say cornucopian communism instead of "resource based economy". It's more accurate. A libertarian society, despotism an statist capitalism are based on resources too.

AI for president! Communism needs a benevolent dictator and a futurist AI can do it.
I guess we can bury all political and economic books and just wait for the computer to say answer 42.
Don't think, AI will do it for you in the future.
What's wrong with our society? Doesn't matter. AI will find out.

Use whatever labels you want. What are you afraid of? Computers run your car, your power grid, your traffic lights, and nearly everything else. We are dependent on computers. Monitoring and distributing resources with maximum efficiency requires computers. I don't know why you think an AI would be a dictator, it would just be a machine. If Karl Marx had know about computers he may have written an entirely different book. Cornucopian communism? I'm not sure what that means, but in the context of a superior AI, it seems it would work pretty well.

I didn't say I'm afraid. I think computers will manage more things than they do now. In fact, I'm working on it. My open source AI project is called preann (parallel reinforcement evolutionary artificial neural network).
But I don't think an algorithm should decide my goals.
An AI would be a dictator if it dictates what we must do.
If I've chosen the wrong labels, maybe you can explain me why. Please, help me know the differences between communism and "resource based economy". As far as I can tell, the only difference is that the dictator would be a an awesome computer instead of Stalin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: jtimon on May 29, 2011, 09:17:44 AM

Since no one answered my question, I guess we can say cornucopian communism instead of "resource based economy". It's more accurate. A libertarian society, despotism an statist capitalism are based on resources too.

AI for president! Communism needs a benevolent dictator and a futurist AI can do it.
I guess we can bury all political and economic books and just wait for the computer to say answer 42.
Don't think, AI will do it for you in the future.
What's wrong with our society? Doesn't matter. AI will find out.

Use whatever labels you want. What are you afraid of? Computers run your car, your power grid, your traffic lights, and nearly everything else. We are dependent on computers. Monitoring and distributing resources with maximum efficiency requires computers. I don't know why you think an AI would be a dictator, it would just be a machine. If Karl Marx had know about computers he may have written an entirely different book. Cornucopian communism? I'm not sure what that means, but in the context of a superior AI, it seems it would work pretty well.

jtimon

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1002

Since no one answered my question, I guess we can say cornucopian communism instead of "resource based economy". It's more accurate. A libertarian society, despotism an statist capitalism are based on resources too.

AI for president! Communism needs a benevolent dictator and a futurist AI can do it.
I guess we can bury all political and economic books and just wait for the computer to say answer 42.
Don't think, AI will do it for you in the future.
What's wrong with our society? Doesn't matter. AI will find out.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1010

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: anderxander on May 28, 2011, 10:42:49 PM

Quote from: cbeast on May 28, 2011, 10:39:33 PM

Quote from: TiagoTiago on May 28, 2011, 10:00:20 PM

Is there scientific proof we can develop and AI system that either itself will be significantly smarter than humans, and at very least human like in it's mental capabilities, or a system that that will be capable of designing AIs better and faster than humans to the point it will give us such "god AI" ?

I mean, sure we're getting closer and closer, but is it more like the sound barrier, getting harder and harder until a tipping point where it will suddenly become super easy, or is it more like light speed, requiring exponentially more effort the further you go, at such a rate that makes overcoming or even just matching the speed pretty much impossible? Is it even possible to know at all which one it is if we haven't (yet) overcome the barrier?

Science only seeks to explore things in nature that we observe. Intelligence is not beyond our understanding. It doesn't require proof, only good evidence. Humans are nothing more than complex machines. Scientists have already created artificial life. AI is inevitable, if not imminent, and superior intelligence is quite plausible.

Did you even read his argument?? No wonder you buy into that RBE elephant shit.

A false analogy is not an argument that merits response. Computers calculate far faster than humans already. It's just a matter of making the machines more complex. If you can't make logical arguments, no wonder you don't understand RBE.

anderxander

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Quote from: cbeast on May 28, 2011, 10:39:33 PM

Quote from: TiagoTiago on May 28, 2011, 10:00:20 PM

Is there scientific proof we can develop and AI system that either itself will be significantly smarter than humans, and at very least human like in it's mental capabilities, or a system that that will be capable of designing AIs better and faster than humans to the point it will give us such "god AI" ?

I mean, sure we're getting closer and closer, but is it more like the sound barrier, getting harder and harder until a tipping point where it will suddenly become super easy, or is it more like light speed, requiring exponentially more effort the further you go, at such a rate that makes overcoming or even just matching the speed pretty much impossible? Is it even possible to know at all which one it is if we haven't (yet) overcome the barrier?

Science only seeks to explore things in nature that we observe. Intelligence is not beyond our understanding. It doesn't require proof, only good evidence. Humans are nothing more than complex machines. Scientists have already created artificial life. AI is inevitable, if not imminent, and superior intelligence is quite plausible.

Did you even read his argument?? No wonder you buy into that RBE elephant shit.

cbeast

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Activity: 1736

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: TiagoTiago on May 28, 2011, 10:00:20 PM

Is there scientific proof we can develop and AI system that either itself will be significantly smarter than humans, and at very least human like in it's mental capabilities, or a system that that will be capable of designing AIs better and faster than humans to the point it will give us such "god AI" ?

I mean, sure we're getting closer and closer, but is it more like the sound barrier, getting harder and harder until a tipping point where it will suddenly become super easy, or is it more like light speed, requiring exponentially more effort the further you go, at such a rate that makes overcoming or even just matching the speed pretty much impossible? Is it even possible to know at all which one it is if we haven't (yet) overcome the barrier?

Science only seeks to explore things in nature that we observe. Intelligence is not beyond our understanding. It doesn't require proof, only good evidence. Humans are nothing more than complex machines. Scientists have already created artificial life. AI is inevitable, if not imminent, and superior intelligence is quite plausible.

anderxander

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Or again that Permaculture and food forests have already solved the problem that this supposed AI is supposedly going to solve. Earthships, earth bag homes, solar oriented homes, distributed generation through solar powered steam engines, open source farm equipment....There are people out there already actually doing things that solve resource scarcity. Go practice them. Stop living in dream land.

TiagoTiago

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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

Is there scientific proof we can develop and AI system that either itself will be significantly smarter than humans, and at very least human like in it's mental capabilities, or a system that that will be capable of designing AIs better and faster than humans to the point it will give us such "god AI" ?

I mean, sure we're getting closer and closer, but is it more like the sound barrier, getting harder and harder until a tipping point where it will suddenly become super easy, or is it more like light speed, requiring exponentially more effort the further you go, at such a rate that makes overcoming or even just matching the speed pretty much impossible? Is it even possible to know at all which one it is if we haven't (yet) overcome the barrier?

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: draaglom on May 28, 2011, 05:01:23 PM

This pictures for sad children comic describes my feelings towards the venus project accurately, even if it is more aimed at "the singularity".

Essentially, the Venus Project appears to be religion for Atheists. The core tenet of the Venus Project is that at some point ~~jesus will return~~ a bitchin' AI will turn up and then everything will be awesome.

On top of this, the Zeitgeist films are riddled with so much bullshit it isn't even funny.

Well, yeah. AI will be a reality. We will be able to create an intelligence that makes humans compare to microbes. After all, we evolved from microbes. I'm not an apologist for the Zeitgeist films, they are simply an introduction. It takes thousands of hours of education to understand the premise of how an RBE would work. It takes pure faith to believe that any currency, whether finite or fiat, to believe that they have causal relationship with scientific progress.

draaglom

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This pictures for sad children comic describes my feelings towards the venus project accurately, even if it is more aimed at "the singularity".

Essentially, the Venus Project appears to be religion for Atheists. The core tenet of the Venus Project is that at some point ~~jesus will return~~ a bitchin' AI will turn up and then everything will be awesome.

On top of this, the Zeitgeist films are riddled with so much bullshit it isn't even funny.

benjamindees

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Quote from: anderxander on May 28, 2011, 03:02:37 PM

there is already another system with the same goal that has been in practice for decades. Permaculture. Food forests.
Open-e-farm is a great example of where the technology of abundance is headed.

Just wanted to quote this for anyone who has the urge to waste their life drawing pictures of floating cities.

anderxander

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The Venus project is such a joke. Fresco hasn't gone anywhere in 30 years. One test facility new models and books but 0 progress towards attaining anything they claim. It has been about pushing a vision with hoping to one day see it a reality. But thats where it will remain, a group in a state of hope trying to get people to see. That does not create resource abundance and there is already another system with the same goal that has been in practice for decades. Permaculture. Food forests.
Open-e-farm is a great example of where the technology of abundance is headed. Anyone still supporting venus project should probably jump ship before they waste too much more time and get obboard with a practical functioning set of ideas that solves the problem of producing resource abundance. for bitcoins to truely work their decentralized nature must be matched with decentralized power distribution and the coins themselves becoming the base unit which with things are monetized. So long as we rely on a conversion through dollars to use bitcoins they will fail.

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: mouser98 on May 28, 2011, 12:32:24 PM

Quote from: ISA on May 28, 2011, 11:52:03 AM

AWESOME.

The Venus project opens your mind:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/

A must see for all free thinkers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011

please ISA, VP has been thoroughly debunked here.... when are you guys going to figure out that top-down solutions really only work for the top? its time for you to get on board with the bottom-up solution

VP isn't about a top or bottom solution. It's just Maslow's Hierarchy with AI and robots. It's not here yet, but when AI arrives, what will your gold, virtual or real be worth?

Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 117. (Read 288348 times)