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Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 64. (Read 288375 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 05:43:53 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.
I'm glad you agree.  Grin
I didn't say for who...
I'm fine with that.
Then I can safely label you "Evil." Buh-bye now, crazy evil person.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
November 07, 2012, 05:39:55 PM
In a society that everything is free? All the resource have zero cost so the product also cost nothing, then everyone would like to have their super house in the best location near water with a big yacht...

The physical places on earth are so limited, so there should be a mechanism to allocate  limited physical resources to each person, queue based?

I think current model of making money through work and market based price setting basically solved this allocation problem, the more scarce the resouce, the higher price it will get. The biggest problem with this model is that there are lots of middle man in this process and in the end those who working hardest get poorly rewarded
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
November 07, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.
I'm glad you agree.  Grin
I didn't say for who...
I'm fine with that. Poetic justice nothing more.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 05:34:56 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.
I'm glad you agree.  Grin
I didn't say for who...
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
November 07, 2012, 05:30:51 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.
I'm glad you agree.  You see it's that easy to get along Grin
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 05:29:51 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
November 07, 2012, 05:24:28 PM
Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 04:26:53 PM
How to start a Zeitgeist movement:
Step one: create complex, self replicating robots that can make anything, for free.
Step two: figure out how to make everything, from food to shelter to clothing to electronics, from only sea water and air, using a process that creates zero pollution

Step three: ? ? ?
Step four: Die when seawater finally dries up and air is depleted.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
November 07, 2012, 04:23:13 PM
How to start a Zeitgeist movement:
Step one: create complex, self replicating robots that can make anything, for free.
Step two: figure out how to make everything, from food to shelter to clothing to electronics, from only sea water and air, using a process that creates zero pollution


......  Tongue
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 04:17:46 PM
"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.

If you send a transaction on the bitcoin network with a 0BTC fee, do you ask for charity?

Not at the moment, since miners are still getting paid for processing blocks. Once the block reward goes away, you would be.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 04:13:58 PM
"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.

If you send a transaction on the bitcoin network with a 0BTC fee, do you ask for charity?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 04:10:34 PM
So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?
No, I just said that the price will be zero, because of the definition of the price as the last observed transaction on the market.  Nothing to do with a relation between labor and product.
Quote
If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero?
Yeah I was just thinking about that.   It's kind of far fetched, but in a sense, yes.   Except that we all know that normally if you want to eat a sandwich you just can't rely on charity (I don't think so, anyway).
"Free" is by definition outside the market. Markets are for trades, not charity.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 04:06:36 PM
So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?
No, I just said that the price will be zero, because of the definition of the price as the last observed transaction on the market.  Nothing to do with a relation between labor and product.

Quote
If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero?
Yeah I was just thinking about that.   It's kind of far fetched, but in a sense, yes.   Except that we all know that normally if you want to eat a sandwich you just can't rely on charity (I don't think so, anyway).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 04:02:24 PM
So you have changed your tune from
There is a price.  It's zero.
to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?

Don't put double quotes around a phrase I did not write.
If you wrote it, I'll put this:
There will be no fixed price (you can not prevent someone from buying something that could be free if this pleases him), but since we know there will always be at least a few transactions occurring for zero, then the price is zero.  Again, a bit like transaction fees in bitcoin.
So you still think that because the labor is free, the product is free?

If I give away a ham sandwich as charity, does that make the market price of a ham sandwich zero? What if I give away 10 sandwiches a day?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 03:54:30 PM
So you have changed your tune from
There is a price.  It's zero.
to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?

Don't put double quotes around a phrase I did not write.

There will be no fixed price (you can not prevent someone from buying something that could be free if this pleases him), but since we know there will always be at least a few transactions occurring for zero, then the price is zero.  Again, a bit like transaction fees in bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 03:47:45 PM
No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.
Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

 By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.

Well, the price is the last observed amount exchanged for a transaction, isn't it?
Indeed. Between market actors. Not between a person and their property.

Some people will manage to buy at zero, but if I don't agree with this price, I don't have to sell it at this price.
So you have changed your tune from
There is a price.  It's zero.
to "some people will receive charity, but the market price will likely be higher than zero"?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 03:41:47 PM
No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.
Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.

Well, the price is the last observed amount exchanged for a transaction, isn't it?

Some people will manage to buy at zero, but if I don't agree with this price, I don't have to sell it at this price.  There sure will be other transactions for different amounts, but the lower, the only one we can talk about here, is zero.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 03:36:51 PM
No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.
Sure didn't look subjective when you wrote this:

 By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Try again.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 03:32:41 PM
It is priced.  If you want something that you can not produce yourself (because you don't have any robot, in which case you'll probably ask for a robot), you might find someone (at least one person), that will give it to you without asking any payment (because he will just order one of his robots to make it).  By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Why? Because they make themselves. Their labor is free. Since their labor is free, that makes the cost of making another one zero, yes?

No.  Because as I wrote, "you might find someone" who will give it away for no payment.  I wrote that he will just order one of his robots to make it.  Some people would accept to do that for free (I'm pretty sure at least one will).  Some others won't.  It's subjective.


It's like for bitcoin transactions.  There is no fixed price for transactions, but to me it's zero.  Because I'm pretty sure there will always be a miner that will accept to process my transaction even if there is no fee.  It might just take a bit more time.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 03:24:15 PM
And I'm not interested in discussing it.

You mean you're not interested anymore. You previously stated that the value of those self-replicating robots would be zero:

It is priced.  If you want something that you can not produce yourself (because you don't have any robot, in which case you'll probably ask for a robot), you might find someone (at least one person), that will give it to you without asking any payment (because he will just order one of his robots to make it).  By definition, it will mean that the price will be zero since at least one transaction can occur at zero.

Why? Because they make themselves. Their labor is free. Since their labor is free, that makes the cost of making another one zero, yes?

That's the labor theory of value. Labor is not the only factor which goes into a price. By applying the labor theory of value to a high-technology society, all you have succeeded in doing is making every cost an externality.

This isn't morals. It's economics.
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