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Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 65. (Read 288375 times)

legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 03:11:54 PM
I'm annoying because I'm forcing you to challenge your values. It's a difficult process, and I'm sorry. But it needs to be done.

Indeed you're going into moral issues.  I don't want to talk about it.  I enjoyed the SF discussion but the rest is much less interesting.

Yes there is, I just told you. They don't have a self-replicating robot to make all their things.

I might not care.  But I'm pretty sure someone would.  Whether or not the proportion of people caring about people not owning means of production could be enough to ensure that everyone owns means of production is contingent.  And I'm not interested in discussing it.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
I said quit dancing, "if" is dancing. They do not have a robot to make the things you take for granted. Do you give them these things (or a robot) for free? Yes or no.

You're annoying.  I don't know.  It's just as if you asked me if I give to beggars in the street.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  What I decide to do or not to do on these matters is my business. 

I'm annoying because I'm forcing you to challenge your values. It's a difficult process, and I'm sorry. But it needs to be done.

There's nothing preventing them from doing what I did, anyway.
Yes there is, I just told you. They don't have a self-replicating robot to make all their things.

Would you give them one?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 03:02:00 PM
I said quit dancing, "if" is dancing. They do not have a robot to make the things you take for granted. Do you give them these things (or a robot) for free? Yes or no.

You're annoying.  I don't know.  It's just as if you asked me if I give to beggars in the street.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  What I decide to do or not to do on these matters is my business.  There's nothing preventing them from doing what I did, anyway.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:56:01 PM
Please quit dancing, and answer the question. Would you sell it, or would you give it away? Binary solution set.

If someone is willing to pay, and if money is still useful, sure, I could sell some.  

I said quit dancing, "if" is dancing. They do not have a robot to make the things you take for granted. Do you give them these things (or a robot) for free? Yes or no.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:55:20 PM
You can only consider work as free if the energy cost is also free.
I don't think we have found a source of completely free energy yet.
See considerations above about the power of the sun compared to a possible maximum number of human beings.

Quote
You do not need a lot of self awareness to be able to effectively control processes.

You might not need it, but with self-replicating machines, it can emerge.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
November 07, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

But thinking that the world population will just ignore their animal drives to get something like a resource based economy going is ludicrous.
You will not be able to get there (and i also said this before) without genetically modifying the entire human species to not be so damn human anymore.


Precisely.  Humans are obsolete.  Thanks for your clarifications.

That is not for humans to decide, i'm afraid...
But in case of RBE i can say that the whole idea does not fit humanity well.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:50:57 PM
Please quit dancing, and answer the question. Would you sell it, or would you give it away? Binary solution set.

If someone is willing to pay, and if money is still useful, sure, I could sell some.  
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:48:27 PM
The point is not that you could or could not sell it, not that you did or did not get it free, but whether or not you would give it away or sell it. Ignore the fact that everyone else is probably going to be able to do what you did. Let's say someone couldn't, for whatever reason. Would you give the product of your robot's labor away for free, or would you sell it?
I'm not sure I would value money in such a situation.  Remember that we're talking about robots capable of manufacturing almost anything.  But I guess there would still be some stuffs that only money can buy (maybe land on earth, for instance).  So you have a point.

Please quit dancing, and answer the question. Would you sell it, or would you give it away? Binary solution set.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:46:56 PM
The point is not that you could or could not sell it, not that you did or did not get it free, but whether or not you would give it away or sell it. Ignore the fact that everyone else is probably going to be able to do what you did. Let's say someone couldn't, for whatever reason. Would you give the product of your robot's labor away for free, or would you sell it?
I'm not sure I would value money much in such a situation.  Remember that we're talking about robots capable of manufacturing almost anything.  But I guess there would still be some stuffs that only money can buy (maybe land on earth, for instance).  So you have a point.


hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:43:31 PM
My pc can control and exploit thousands of virtual 'workers' without it making any demands of itself.

Dwarf Fortress? Wink
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
November 07, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
You don't see the need to pay anyone for it. Because you're the only human involved. The robots are giving you their labor, as a "gift". Since their labor is free, so too must be the product. That's the labor theory, buck-o. And it's just as flawed when you base your assertions on it as it is when the Zeitgeist dingbats do.

I like the way you say "must", as if it was some kind of moral issue.  The fact that it is free is not the result of a theory or even economics reasoning.  It's just the result of the fact that the robots do not ask for any payment.  It comes from the master-slave relationship between me and my robots.  I don't have to justify it.

You can only consider work as free if the energy cost is also free.
I don't think we have found a source of completely free energy yet.


Quote

PS.  This raises an interesting question though.  Is it, from a purely theoretical point of view, possible to create an artificial intelligence smart enough to control and exploit self-replicating robots, and yet not smart enough to rebel against its creator/owner and refuse to work?

Yes, i think it is trivial.
My pc can control and exploit thousands of virtual 'workers' without it making any demands of itself.
You do not need a lot of self awareness to be able to effectively control processes.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:37:01 PM
That's my business.  And that's a totally different story.
No, it's central to your error. If you were to sell it, how much would you charge?

I'm not sure I could sell it if anyone is capable of doing what I did.  But if I were to sell it, it would not change the fact that I initially received it for free.

The point is not that you could or could not sell it, not that you did or did not get it free, but whether or not you would give it away or sell it. Ignore the fact that everyone else is probably going to be able to do what you did. Let's say someone couldn't, for whatever reason. Would you give the product of your robot's labor away for free, or would you sell it?

If your point consists in saying that there could still be some people buying stuff, sure, it's possible.
Not could, would.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:29:02 PM
That's my business.  And that's a totally different story.
No, it's central to your error. If you were to sell it, how much would you charge?

I'm not sure I could sell it if anyone is capable of doing what I did.  But if I were to sell it, it would not change the fact that I initially received it for free.

If your point consists in saying that there could still be some people buying stuff, sure, it's possible.

Kind of like free software.  It's usually also free as in "free beer", but for one reason or an other, you can buy or sell some as well.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Shame on everything; regret nothing.
November 07, 2012, 02:26:50 PM

But thinking that the world population will just ignore their animal drives to get something like a resource based economy going is ludicrous.
You will not be able to get there (and i also said this before) without genetically modifying the entire human species to not be so damn human anymore.


Precisely.  Humans are obsolete.  Thanks for your clarifications.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:22:40 PM
And what do you do with the product of their work?

That's my business.  And that's a totally different story.

No, it's central to your error. If you were to sell it, how much would you charge?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:19:40 PM
And what do you do with the product of their work?

That's my business.  And that's a totally different story.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:18:16 PM
Exactly. And because you have free labor, your output can be given away for free?

Damn.  You got me here.  I wrote "they work for me for free", indeed.  But what I really meant is what I wrote just before that:  they don't ask for any payment.

In other words, they come to me, they give me the product of their work, and they don't ask for any payment.  So what I received is free.   Not because of some logic consequence from some theory of value, but just as an empirical fact:  I received something and I didn't pay.

And what do you do with the product of their work?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:15:27 PM
Exactly. And because you have free labor, your output can be given away for free?

Damn.  You got me here.  I wrote "they work for me for free", indeed.  But what I really meant is what I wrote just before that:  they don't ask for any payment.

In other words, they come to me, they give me the product of their work, and they don't ask for any payment.  So what I received is free.   Not because of some logic consequence from some theory of value, but just as an empirical fact:  I received something and I didn't pay.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
November 07, 2012, 02:10:55 PM
Not "must" as in "morally should be," "must" as in "it follows." If the product is free because the labor is free, that is the labor theory of value. I'm not looking for justification. It's just simple fact.

You wanted facts, I gave you one:  the robots do not ask for any payment.  So they work for me for free, by any definition I know of the expression "working for free".  I have no other answer to give you.

Exactly. And because you have free labor, your output can be given away for free?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
November 07, 2012, 02:06:26 PM
Not "must" as in "morally should be," "must" as in "it follows." If the product is free because the labor is free, that is the labor theory of value. I'm not looking for justification. It's just simple fact.

You wanted facts, I gave you one:  the robots do not ask for any payment.  So they work for me for free, by any definition I know of the expression "working for free".  I have no other answer to give you.
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