A Resource Based Economy - page 74. | Bitcointalksearch.org

pretendo

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How can you claim that economics is a science when it is based on subjective opinion?

Some or even most people holding an incorrect belief does not make something a matter of opinion. 1+1=2 no matter how many people disagree.

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Money is a matter of opinion.

Money certainly exists, not sure what you mean

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Price is a matter of opinion.

No, things certainly have prices, your personal valuation is an opinion though.

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Market regulation is a matter of opinion. Government intervention is a matter of opinion.

Some regulation and intervention leads to positive results, a vast majority does not. This isn't opinion if we are talking about economic results. Spiritual or cultural results? Maybe.

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The free market is entirely mythical.

Markets can certainly be free, it's more of a sliding scale between free and unfree, with most places being shades of gray. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking here's a cool list

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On what do you base this assertion that economics "leaves little room for opinion"?

Because some actions, systems and policies lead to better results than others. This both be observed and can be derived from immutable laws, just like physics.

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And to be technically factual, even math is a matter of opinion ultimately, so even bitcoin is ultimately someone's opinion.

to be technically factual eh? No, math isn't a matter of opinion, but you are more than welcome to be wrong, I don't think anyone will care much

LightRider

legendary

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 03:05:59 AM

Not really, I am not very political, but I dislike when people treat facts as opinions when there is objective truth (math/econ is my specialty and these sciences leave little room for opinion)
One mans ignorance is not as good as another man's knowledge. But ask my anything non-mathematical and non-economic and I will not feel very strongly, other than hurting and forcing people to do things one way is not a good thing.

How can you claim that economics is a science when it is based on subjective opinion? Money is a matter of opinion. Price is a matter of opinion. Market regulation is a matter of opinion. Government intervention is a matter of opinion. The free market is entirely mythical. On what do you base this assertion that economics "leaves little room for opinion"? And to be technically factual, even math is a matter of opinion ultimately, so even bitcoin is ultimately someone's opinion.

pretendo

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Not really, I am not very political, but I dislike when people treat facts as opinions when there is objective truth (math/econ is my specialty and these sciences leave little room for opinion)
One mans ignorance is not as good as another man's knowledge. But ask my anything non-mathematical and non-economic and I will not feel very strongly, other than hurting and forcing people to do things one way is not a good thing.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 02:54:41 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 06, 2012, 02:51:05 AM

My point is to make you question your assumptions. If you're uncomfortable with doing that, then maybe you are the one who is creepy and cultish.

You aren't challenging my views, you are validating them. You literally tried to "challenge my assumptions" by saying that the free market is the same thing as government overspending and debt, and by equating forcing others to bear debt with voluntary associations. Do you seriously not see the logical disconnects? If you do that's great, to err is to be human

So you want society to be entirely different than it is now? Then we have some common ground, wouldn't you agree?

pretendo

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: LightRider on October 06, 2012, 02:51:05 AM

My point is to make you question your assumptions. If you're uncomfortable with doing that, then maybe you are the one who is creepy and cultish.

You aren't challenging my views, you are validating them. You literally tried to "challenge my assumptions" by saying that the free market is the same thing as government overspending and debt, and by equating forcing others to bear debt with voluntary associations. Do you seriously not see the logical disconnects? If you do that's great, to err is to be human

LightRider

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Activity: 1500

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 02:48:20 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 06, 2012, 02:43:21 AM

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 01:30:45 AM

Are you trying to tell me government debt is a market failure?
Am I being trolled here?

Government is the dominant institution of humanity. Do you disagree with the way people have chosen to organize themselves?

I disagree with governments putting a burden of debt on taxpayers, even if a majority of the population supports it

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If so, why? Don't people have the right to organize themselves the way they see fit?

Sure do, but government is not a voluntary institution and goes outside of the scope of self organization. If people want to get together and screw themselves with debt, they are allowed. Forcing strangers to bear debts? not such much

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If not, why not? Would you make them behave the way you would want them to? What makes you qualified to tell them how to behave? What happens when they choose not to behave in that way? Will you punish them?

See above. Not sure how you are trying to make government debts a qualifier for markets, but you're making a good case for you lake of thinking skills

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Ability and desire are different. You are certainly able to do many things. You desire to do only a subset of those things. What causes you to want to do one thing over another?

Things I or anyone prefers, what is your point?

In case you can't see it for yourself, your rhetoric is becoming very creepy and cultish, like those videos of scientologists being pressed about their beliefs.

My point is to make you question your assumptions. If you're uncomfortable with doing that, then maybe you are the one who is creepy and cultish.

pretendo

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: LightRider on October 06, 2012, 02:43:21 AM

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 01:30:45 AM

Are you trying to tell me government debt is a market failure?
Am I being trolled here?

Government is the dominant institution of humanity. Do you disagree with the way people have chosen to organize themselves?

I disagree with governments putting a burden of debt on taxpayers, even if a majority of the population supports it

Quote

If so, why? Don't people have the right to organize themselves the way they see fit?

Sure do, but government is not a voluntary institution and goes outside of the scope of self organization. If people want to get together and screw themselves with debt, they are allowed. Forcing strangers to bear debts? not such much

Quote

If not, why not? Would you make them behave the way you would want them to? What makes you qualified to tell them how to behave? What happens when they choose not to behave in that way? Will you punish them?

See above. Not sure how you are trying to make government debts a qualifier for markets, but you're making a good case for you lake of thinking skills

Quote

Ability and desire are different. You are certainly able to do many things. You desire to do only a subset of those things. What causes you to want to do one thing over another?

Things I or anyone prefers, what is your point?

In case you can't see it for yourself, your rhetoric is becoming very creepy and cultish, like those videos of scientologists being pressed about their beliefs.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 02:39:19 AM

So I shouldn't be able to engage in a mutually beneficial voluntary transaction with another human because I share a biosphere with people? Far out, man.

Ability and desire are different. You are certainly able to do many things. You desire to do only a subset of those things. What causes you to want to do one thing over another?

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: Rassah on October 06, 2012, 02:42:12 AM

The problem with the global economic model is that it is still composed of people who want different things. Some will want to spend more hydrogen on developing space travel, others will want to spend it on generating more energy at home or building dirigibles. Regardless of what the all mighty computer decides, someone will be very upset, and likely eventually decide not to go along with the model.

Let's focus on providing for needs first. Our current model satisfies only wants, and ~~half~~ all of the population suffers for it.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 01:30:45 AM

Are you trying to tell me government debt is a market failure?
Am I being trolled here?

Government is the dominant institution of humanity. Do you disagree with the way people have chosen to organize themselves? If so, why? Don't people have the right to organize themselves the way they see fit? If not, why not? Would you make them behave the way you would want them to? What makes you qualified to tell them how to behave? What happens when they choose not to behave in that way? Will you punish them?

Rassah

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Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

The problem with the global economic model is that it is still composed of people who want different things. Some will want to spend more hydrogen on developing space travel, others will want to spend it on generating more energy at home or building dirigibles. Regardless of what the all mighty computer decides, someone will be very upset, and likely eventually decide not to go along with the model.

pretendo

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

So I shouldn't be able to engage in a mutually beneficial voluntary transaction with another human because I share a biosphere with people? Far out, man.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: Rassah on October 06, 2012, 01:53:59 AM

I think the REALLY BIG AND IMPORTANT POINT to point out here is that an RBE can exist within a free-market society (even as a separate country/bubble), but a free market can not exist within an RBE society, since it will likely be suppressed as something undesirable.

This is technically inaccurate. An RBE can only exist in the context of a global economic model, because the basis of such an economy is the understanding that all people share one planet. If you don't understand that you cannot divide the world into pieces for your own pleasure because we are all intrinsically connected via a common biosphere, then you are not yet understanding what an RBE is all about. It requires a shift in values, not a PhD in economic "science".

pretendo

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Well sure. Socialism can exist within a free market, as long as it's contractual and non-violent, unlike socialist nations-states. The main grocery store down the street from me where I used to live was a worker's cooperative. No problem there, they were great.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

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I think the REALLY BIG AND IMPORTANT POINT to point out here is that an RBE can exist within a free-market society (even as a separate country/bubble), but a free market can not exist within an RBE society, since it will likely be suppressed as something undesirable.

Atlas

jr. member

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It's not a failure. It's progress. Eventually it will collapse and we will move forward with more knowledge. There's no catch-all solution; only evolution.

pretendo

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Are you trying to tell me government debt is a market failure?
Am I being trolled here?

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 06, 2012, 12:50:05 AM

Point is, your planned economy ideas don't work. They don't stand up to the scrutiny and rigor of the science of economics. This is fact and your view on it doesn't change it.

It seems that your "science of economics" has lead the world into ~~40 trillion~~ nearly 50 trillion dollars of debt. Is that how an economy is supposed to work?

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

pretendo

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Point is, your planned economy ideas don't work. They don't stand up to the scrutiny and rigor of the science of economics. This is fact and your view on it doesn't change it.

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: mobodick on October 05, 2012, 02:48:31 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 05, 2012, 03:25:25 AM

Quote from: pretendo on October 05, 2012, 03:15:16 AM

Not your associations, your professed beliefs. Someone that believes in leprechauns or a faked moon landing almost certainly lacks critical thinking skills.

Because the ideas of a society based on relevant education, life sustaining values and an actual economy are equivalent to a belief in leprechauns?

If you expect these things to be accepted by all human beings then yes, you do believe in leprechauns.
And in a way your ideas are exactly like that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Nice to get the pot but no real life rainbow will lead you there.

You believe that you can make an assertion about all human beings? What compels you to assert such a statement? I don't say that absolutely everyone has to agree with these ideas, but a society that does would be far better than the one we have now.

Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 74. (Read 288348 times)