A Resource Based Economy - page 77. | Bitcointalksearch.org

LightRider

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 05, 2012, 01:39:41 AM

"I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project."
Well I now have reason to believe you are a person with weak critical thinking skills.

Because presuming guilt by association is the hallmark of those with critical thinking skills such as yourself.

pretendo

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"I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project."
Well I now have reason to believe you are a person with weak critical thinking skills.

LightRider

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: memvola on October 05, 2012, 12:36:39 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 05:07:30 PM

Money, not currency.

You used them alternatingly in your comments. Why don't you go ahead and make a case?

I used them specifically and purposefully. Read it again.

pretendo

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Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 05:07:30 PM

Quote from: pretendo on October 04, 2012, 12:29:26 PM

There's tons of examples where currencies aren't government sanctions. Some American towns have their own town-unique currency that is just decided on by the people that use it, in an effort to "keep spending local". There have been many currencies that are just gold coins not minted by a government but universally accepted. Hell, in the video game Metro 2033 the currency is a common type of bullet, which is pretty ingenious since that has intrinsic utility to people and is very portable/divisible. Things being sanctioned or not sanctioned by the government doesn't make them currency or stop being currency. You'd have to lack some serious economic knowledge, historical context and imagination to believe that money can't exist without a state waving some wand.

Money, not currency.

What I said applies to both
Sounds like you have a serious case of no true scotsman

memvola

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Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 05:07:30 PM

Money, not currency.

You used them alternatingly in your comments. Why don't you go ahead and make a case?

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: pretendo on October 04, 2012, 12:29:26 PM

There's tons of examples where currencies aren't government sanctions. Some American towns have their own town-unique currency that is just decided on by the people that use it, in an effort to "keep spending local". There have been many currencies that are just gold coins not minted by a government but universally accepted. Hell, in the video game Metro 2033 the currency is a common type of bullet, which is pretty ingenious since that has intrinsic utility to people and is very portable/divisible. Things being sanctioned or not sanctioned by the government doesn't make them currency or stop being currency. You'd have to lack some serious economic knowledge, historical context and imagination to believe that money can't exist without a state waving some wand.

Money, not currency.

pretendo

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

There's tons of examples where currencies aren't government sanctions. Some American towns have their own town-unique currency that is just decided on by the people that use it, in an effort to "keep spending local". There have been many currencies that are just gold coins not minted by a government but universally accepted. Hell, in the video game Metro 2033 the currency is a common type of bullet, which is pretty ingenious since that has intrinsic utility to people and is very portable/divisible. Things being sanctioned or not sanctioned by the government doesn't make them currency or stop being currency. You'd have to lack some serious economic knowledge, historical context and imagination to believe that money can't exist without a state waving some wand.

memvola

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Quote from: alan2here on October 04, 2012, 10:15:37 AM

The RBE is not comunist or capiltalist. At least not comunist in the way of past Russia, China etc...

It is some form of communism. This description on Wikipedia conforms with what you can find out from serious literature yourself:

Quote from: cbeast on October 04, 2012, 09:32:03 AM

I'm not sure that the Internet itself (let alone Bitcoin) could exist without a State.

Well, even roads and sanitation wouldn't exist without the State. The claim that the State will always be there is one thing, but it doesn't follow that we couldn't manage to do these things if it weren't there. We would have to be different for it to not be there, so my assumption is that we should be able to manage doing these things ourselves to even be capable of rendering the State useless.

alan2here

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The RBE is not comunist or capiltalist. At least not comunist in the way of past Russia, China etc...

cbeast

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: memvola on October 04, 2012, 06:08:07 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 04:21:13 AM

What money isn't associated with a state of some sort?

Bitcoin happened with zero involvement from any State, and we practically proved that there can be a market without State involvement. However some parts of the State will be associated with something Bitcoin related one way or another, there is no way to avoid it completely. The State will want to control anything and everything useful to anyone. The causality is reverse.

I'm not sure that the Internet itself (let alone Bitcoin) could exist without a State. Gold exists without a state, so there can be money. There will always be a State of sorts as long as we are civilized, but it is not necessary to use force to cause humans to act civilized.

memvola

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Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 04:21:13 AM

What money isn't associated with a state of some sort?

You need to clarify the context in which you use the word "association". You can't have loud music without involving the State. Thereby we can't have loud music without State coercion. Is this analogous to what you're saying?

Bitcoin happened with zero involvement from any State, and we practically proved that there can be a market without State involvement. However some parts of the State will be associated with something Bitcoin related one way or another, there is no way to avoid it completely. The State will want to control anything and everything useful to anyone. The causality is reverse.

Or, if your point is about the Bitcoin Foundation, you have to make your case, because it's not a State.

If what you were saying was limited to the fact that money attracts powermongers, I'd agree. Anything that has to do with resource allocation will always attract powermongers. Isn't it what this debate revolves around?

LightRider

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I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: memvola on October 04, 2012, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:48:35 AM

Quote from: memvola on October 04, 2012, 03:32:32 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:11:03 AM

How can an efficient market exist without some level of government or force majeure deciding what the common unit of value is? And if there is none then it turns to barter of disparate goods/currencies

I'm puzzled by these two sentences. Why? And why?

Opinions are arbitrary.

Is that a Jedi mind trick? Wink

An efficient market can exist without an enforced common unit of value, and I was puzzled because I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't work. Without enforced units, there is near zero friction in exchanging units of value. There is no reason to think it is less efficient.

Consider the situation we already have with competing crypto-currencies. First, you should realize that the best one will always be dominant, without it being forced on anyone. This is precisely because nothing is forced, otherwise there would be more competition as we can observe in State issued currencies. Second, if there is a phase that market is undecided on what's best, on-the-fly conversion will always be possible, thanks to efficient currency exchange markets. Ultimately, most people will accept most currencies directly, and quickly get rid of the one they don't prefer by exchanging them instantly or nightly or whatever.

Is there anything I'm missing in this picture?

Your second sentence is confusing me because of the word "barter". But I suppose we'd agree in general.

Money is a matter of opinion, absolutely true. I don't know what `opinions are arbitrary` means. And money doesn't imply State.

What money isn't associated with a state of some sort?

memvola

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Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:48:35 AM

Quote from: memvola on October 04, 2012, 03:32:32 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:11:03 AM

How can an efficient market exist without some level of government or force majeure deciding what the common unit of value is? And if there is none then it turns to barter of disparate goods/currencies

I'm puzzled by these two sentences. Why? And why?

Opinions are arbitrary.

Is that a Jedi mind trick? Wink

An efficient market can exist without an enforced common unit of value, and I was puzzled because I don't know of any reason why it wouldn't work. Without enforced units, there is near zero friction in exchanging units of value. There is no reason to think it is less efficient.

Consider the situation we already have with competing crypto-currencies. First, you should realize that the best one will always be dominant, without it being forced on anyone. This is precisely because nothing is forced, otherwise there would be more competition as we can observe in State issued currencies. Second, if there is a phase that market is undecided on what's best, on-the-fly conversion will always be possible, thanks to efficient currency exchange markets. Ultimately, most people will accept most currencies directly, and quickly get rid of the one they don't prefer by exchanging them instantly or nightly or whatever.

Is there anything I'm missing in this picture?

Your second sentence is confusing me because of the word "barter". But I suppose we'd agree in general.

Money is a matter of opinion, absolutely true. I don't know what `opinions are arbitrary` means. And money doesn't imply State.

LightRider

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Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: memvola on October 04, 2012, 03:32:32 AM

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:11:03 AM

How can an efficient market exist without some level of government or force majeure deciding what the common unit of value is? And if there is none then it turns to barter of disparate goods/currencies

I'm puzzled by these two sentences. Why? And why?

Opinions are arbitrary.

memvola

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Activity: 938

Merit: 1002

Quote from: LightRider on October 04, 2012, 03:11:03 AM

How can an efficient market exist without some level of government or force majeure deciding what the common unit of value is? And if there is none then it turns to barter of disparate goods/currencies

I'm puzzled by these two sentences. Why? And why?

LightRider

legendary

Activity: 1500

Merit: 1022

I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.

Quote from: asdf on October 03, 2012, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

The free market is a myth. You can't point to something that doesn't exist and say it's working fine, or would work if the state weren't involved.

Why not. We can't have trade without a violent institution getting a cut? I think we can trade perfectly fine without being robbed and controlled. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

There can be no market without the state involved at some level. Even in the bitcoin economy now we see the rise of the bitcoin foundation, a political, legal and corporate government entity.

The bitcoin foundation is not a government entity. They neither taxes me or regulates me under threat of violence. It is purely voluntary.

Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

When you have money, you have a state, and therefore there is no free market.

Interesting. Money implies state. Could you justify that statement?

Money is a matter of opinion. Opinions differ. How can an efficient market exist without some level of government or force majeure deciding what the common unit of value is? And if there is none then it turns to barter of disparate goods/currencies, which is fine, but proves the assertion that money is a matter of opinion.

kjj

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Quote from: alan2here on October 03, 2012, 06:34:59 PM

Quote from: justusranvier on October 03, 2012, 12:00:10 PM

the Zeitgeist people always handwave around the problem of what happens when the masses don't want to listen to the self-appointed elite that will be telling everybody how many resources they are allowed to utilize.

This is very much against the whole principle of the RBE. More like every time you go to RBE.com theres another new vote about what member of goverment should be appointed and what it is they should be doing. It would have to be volentery, the populus couldn't appoint you to do something you didn't want to do again under the RBE own rules.

There are lots of reasons the RBE might not work, making this work in a way acceptable to the RBE thinking could be one. It's not coruption proof (although it's designed to encourage different motivations) but no need to suggest its corrupt by design.

Unless I'm missing some big detail, it really is corrupt by design, just like it was when it was called communism a century ago.

alan2here

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 03, 2012, 12:00:10 PM

the Zeitgeist people always handwave around the problem of what happens when the masses don't want to listen to the self-appointed elite that will be telling everybody how many resources they are allowed to utilize.

This is very much against the whole principle of the RBE. More like every time you go to RBE.com theres another new vote about what member of goverment should be appointed and what it is they should be doing. It would have to be volentery, the populus couldn't appoint you to do something you didn't want to do again under the RBE own rules.

There are lots of reasons the RBE might not work, making this work in a way acceptable to the RBE thinking could be one. It's not coruption proof (although it's designed to encourage different motivations) but no need to suggest its corrupt by design.

asdf

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 03, 2012, 12:00:10 PM

The "Zeitgeist movement" is nothing more than resurrected communist propaganda from the early 20th century except with computers.

It comes almost word-for-word from the propaganda that was floating around from the time of the Bolshevik Revolution. The proponents of central planning always promise a scientifically-managed utopian society where money isn't necessary.

It never works for reasons Mises described as the economic calculation problem. The addition of computers to the toolset of the central planners does not solve the problem, and the Zeitgeist people always handwave around the problem of what happens when the masses don't want to listen to the self-appointed elite that will be telling everybody how many resources they are allowed to utilize. There's only way to impose central planning on those who don't agree and we already know how that works out.

It's doesn't matter because there will be infinite resources. Roll Eyes

asdf

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Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

The free market is a myth. You can't point to something that doesn't exist and say it's working fine, or would work if the state weren't involved.

Why not. We can't have trade without a violent institution getting a cut? I think we can trade perfectly fine without being robbed and controlled. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

There can be no market without the state involved at some level. Even in the bitcoin economy now we see the rise of the bitcoin foundation, a political, legal and corporate government entity.

The bitcoin foundation is not a government entity. They neither taxes me or regulates me under threat of violence. It is purely voluntary.

Quote from: LightRider on October 02, 2012, 08:47:03 PM

When you have money, you have a state, and therefore there is no free market.

Interesting. Money implies state. Could you justify that statement?

Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 77. (Read 288375 times)