[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] - page 65.

Minor Miner

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Quote from: minerpart on January 30, 2014, 10:58:14 AM

Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.
A quick search found this:
location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month
Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficulty as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

You are missing something. You need to get the power from the transformer into panels. Then from the panels you need to distribute the power to each rack. Sounds simple correct? You need a lot of equipment between the transformer and the plug above each rack. This is not at lowes or home depot. You also need to design/order/install a raised floor system for the cooling, and an HVAC system that can cool 2,000 kw of heat. Oh, and before you do this, all the plans have to be engineered and then approved by your local city (none of the contractors that can do this will work without the proper engineering and permitting and most of the good contractors that can do the HVAC are union). That seems like a good building to start with though. I would be surprised if the owner was up for all the alterations you are planning to make to it though, you should ask him first.

EDIT: ooops, just read the link. It is 400,000 sq ft building that was abandoned by ball corp. You could not take 11,000 sq ft of it and take 3MW of the power.

minerpart

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IIIIII====II====IIIIII

Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling.

Dismissive is one word, completely ignorant might be another term that applies.

A quick search found this:

location - Kansas MO
power - 9MegaWatts of power capacity over 4 transformers
space - 11,000 square foot of space
rental - $4,680 per month

Unless I'm missing something opening a Bitcoin date centre for 2, 3 or 10 MW is as difficult as taking out a lease and installing your miners.

http://www.cityfeet.com/cont/ForLease/LN18343927/1800-Reynolds-Avenue-Kansas-City-MO-64120

Edit - it even has 120 parking spaces and a 15 Ton bridge crane. What more could you need?

Minor Miner

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So what would your guess be on taking that kind of baseload draw in a professional data center? That is not the typical customer for them (little to no bandwidth and baseload power/heat instead of peaking).
At some point the fee per month could make data center mining unprofitable if you are paying $2300 per rack per month and the network gets so large that the density you can fit in that rack is not enough TH/s.

kleeck

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Quote from: Minor Miner on January 30, 2014, 10:41:55 AM

Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: VinceSamios on January 30, 2014, 10:35:47 AM

Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.
Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

In order to have this 1-2PH farm within Q2 we would need to use the 55nm chips @ 1.9GH/s.

Given your job Kleeck, what is the cost of setting up a 3,000 KW, running baseloaded power (24/7), data center by June? It certainly is not going to fit in the "garage" building that is headquarters.

I'm unsure of cost, as that's not my side of the responsibility, but no, it absolutely will not fit in a garage.

When I say DC, I mean DC and a garage does not qualify. Ken is not going to build this DC, from the ground up, by June. Let's not be ridiculous. There are many, many enterprise-grade DCs that will rent you rack space and power. I'd wager that Ken is already in talks with a couple.

Edit: To lend a little more insight into why a Mining DC isn't that big of a deal I'll share this. One of our Computer Scientist's used to work for a major university. They rented rack space for some massive GPU farm that did all manner of medical science computations from the same DC we use. The machines ran 24/7 with multiple GPUs per server crunching away relentlessly and the DC didn't bat an eye at their power/cooling requirements. This type of thing has been going on since before Bitcoin.

mainline

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Quote from: VinceSamios on January 30, 2014, 10:35:47 AM

...
At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.
...

Theoretically. But you're dealing with Ken.

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/q/image/1364/60/1364609851997.png

Minor Miner

legendary

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Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: VinceSamios on January 30, 2014, 10:35:47 AM

Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.
Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

In order to have this 1-2PH farm within Q2 we would need to use the 55nm chips @ 1.9GH/s.

Given your job Kleeck, what is the cost of setting up a 3,000 KW, running baseloaded power (24/7), data center by June? It certainly is not going to fit in the "garage" building that is headquarters.

kleeck

hero member

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Quote from: VinceSamios on January 30, 2014, 10:35:47 AM

Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

In order to have this 1-2PH farm within Q2 we would need to use the 55nm chips @ 1.9GH/s.

VinceSamios

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Activity: 448

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Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

At 16gh/chip, to ramp up production requires approx. 500% less hardware than with bitfury chips, which means it should be possible to ramp up 500% faster.

Being the manufacturer of the chips and the boards will also save significant time in ramping up. No need to wait in line for chips etc.

kleeck

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Quote from: MrTeal on January 30, 2014, 10:20:16 AM

Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 09:24:56 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on January 30, 2014, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: st4nl3y on January 30, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

Do you think that range will hold if Ken does get a 1-2PH farm up and running on the 55nm tech within Q2?

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

I'm currently employed by a company who has multiple data centers around the world, one of which I am in charge of maintaining. I am fully aware of the logistics involved in getting a data center setup and it is far from the biggest obstacle here.

I do agree that the ramp-up time will be a significant factor, but to say that the possibility is "almost non-existent" is exactly what you claimed to not be, dismissive. Ken knows how to do calculations and there are plenty of DCs that would love to take on the recurring revenue that an operation like this would bring in. This is not some magical and mysterious process. It has been done before ActM and will be done after.

It's hard to look at the example of this "100gh/s" mine ramping up to 500gh/s because there are far too many variables involved in any one company's ramp up time. They may have hangups that ActM does not and ActM may have some that they did not. The only thing we can really look at is our available resources and timelines, which only Ken has on hand. He has been very tight lipped about the mining operation until now so I believe he has enough data available to put forth a reasonable timeline.

MrTeal

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Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 09:24:56 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on January 30, 2014, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: st4nl3y on January 30, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

Do you think that range will hold if Ken does get a 1-2PH farm up and running on the 55nm tech within Q2?

Not to be dismissive, but the chances of that happening are almost non-existent. Even if the chips were coming out of fab right now and there was a board design that was vetted I would be surprised if AMC could get a 1PH mine running by the end of Q2. You're talking about a 2MW datacenter there, probably 3MW with cooling. That's going to be a massive facility and even the capital infrastructure outside the mining hardware doesn't spring up overnight.

Just look at how long it took the 100GH/s mine to ramp up to 500GH/s, and that's with the Bitfury design which is pulling about half the power per GH/s that this 55nm design will if it hits its specs. They started getting hardware online at the end of July/start of August, and hit 500GH/s at the end of the year.

mainline

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Activity: 56

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Quote from: kleeck on January 30, 2014, 09:24:56 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on January 30, 2014, 09:04:35 AM

...Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.
...

Do you think that range will hold if Ken does get a 1-2PH farm up and running on the 55nm tech within Q2?

Sure. Especially when Ken starts mining the moon for cream cheese.

mainline

newbie

Activity: 56

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Quote from: breadcrumbs on January 30, 2014, 05:21:25 AM

I) The last PR report was great

II) Once We are trading and miners get produced and go online some current FUDsters will be even more upset

III) Mainline-crumbs is very upset

IV) Once the CEO makes us all rich, crumbs-Mainline will find some new amazing angle and will not quit

V) We must not agitate crumb-Mainline any more because this will become a crisis for him

VI) Trading will begin soon

VII) Be patient

LorenzoMoney! Still raging at shadows in IRC? Whatcha gonna do when you dump your sharez - buy another training wheel for your scooter? Or spring for one of those tiny clown cars with a funny claxon, so u and ur ~~clown buddies~~ investor friends can cruise around ~~frightening children~~ for chicks?

*For pages of IRC ragings, see http://pastebin.com/WUVaZkwB

kleeck

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Quote from: drawingthesun on January 30, 2014, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: st4nl3y on January 30, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

Do you think that range will hold if Ken does get a 1-2PH farm up and running on the 55nm tech within Q2?

drawingthesun

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1015

Quote from: st4nl3y on January 30, 2014, 08:01:08 AM

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

This is a bunch of rubbish, I can count only a few, perhaps 5 at most, the amount of cheerleading investors.

Also if anyone thinks that can "quietly" sell their shares, they are in for a surprise. I have already claimed 0.0009 to be the top end of the price range until 28nm is delivered, with the most likely range around 0.0001-0.0004.

Most of the real investors (me and almost everyone else who isn't a troll) are not cheerleading and know that we will have to either sell very cheap to get bitcoin or hold out for a long time (8 months+) and hope that Ken succeeds.

st4nl3y

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

Quote from: kslaughter on January 29, 2014, 09:01:09 PM

Quote from: smiley35 on January 29, 2014, 08:59:42 PM

What about our shares??!!!

We will start the process of verifying the shares tomorrow.

Yea, and when will that be completed in 2 weeks ..? a month? ..or maybe when you sell some more shares ..? I bet 1 satoshi there is going to be some issues with verification and ken will post another bullshiznit explanation in the next update!

LOL @ all the outspoken fans and supporters of this failure! you all cheering up this mess but really you just wait for the moment you can sell your shares quietly and never post here again.in the meantime, the way you all bow down and bend over to your master is just way too funny and desperate to say the least!

breadcrumbs

newbie

Activity: 27

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I) The last PR report was great

II) Once We are trading and miners get produced and go online some current FUDsters will be even more upset

III) Mainline-crumbs is very upset

IV) Once the CEO makes us all rich, crumbs-Mainline will find some new amazing angle and will not quit

V) We must not agitate crumb-Mainline any more because this will become a crisis for him

VI) Trading will begin soon

VII) Be patient

JimmyJazz

full member

Activity: 207

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Minor Miner on January 29, 2014, 11:47:45 PM

... who are the Scotts?

Full Poem here without my paraphrasing:
------------
Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane -
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, ere I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3aniiKuxL8

mainline

newbie

Activity: 56

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Quote from: JoTheKhan on January 30, 2014, 01:09:23 AM

Ken also claimed to have kept some of the money in BTC, remember the preorders started coming in when BTC was worth $100-$200 each and we refund in FIAT value.

Ken has explicitly contradicted that today. Look at his weekly post.

Quote

Hedge : We sell a bunch of hardware before a BTC crash. Our Mining revenue goes to crap, but we still made money to sustain the company until BTC prices recover and our mining revenue turns back into profit. Not really Hedge but a crappy insurance against a BTC crash.

Not following. You have no mining revenue to speak of. The money to sustain the company was spent on IP and two doods. It's either profitable IP and two d00ds, or it's not. If not, there is no scenario which makes it profitable. You don't need to know tech details, and you don't need to take my word for this.

There's one knowledgeable guy who you can trust in this thread - MrTeal. His tech info is spot-on and he is an EE (i think). I don't personally know him, but have read his posts in the techy section. If you have to accept anyone's word on trust (in techy matters), choose him.

JoTheKhan

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Activity: 378

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Ken also claimed to have kept some of the money in BTC, remember the preorders started coming in when BTC was worth $100-$200 each and we refund in FIAT value.

Hedge : We sell a bunch of hardware before a BTC crash. Our Mining revenue goes to crap, but we still made money to sustain the company until BTC prices recover and our mining revenue turns back into profit. Not really Hedge but a crappy insurance against a BTC crash.

EDIT: I know little about mining and less about mining hardware. No reason to ask you why because it will ultimately go over my head.

mainline

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: JoTheKhan on January 30, 2014, 12:59:09 AM

@Main

There are a few reasons (not always great reasons, but there are a few) that this company plans to sell chips that meet ROI.

1. We get the money faster through preorders that allow us to order more chips at cost for us to mine with. If we didn't do preorders then our only source of income would be mining and our mining farm would grow at a slower pace.

Ken claimed that he sold many millions worth of pre-orders for 28nm hardware that he doesn't have. That money must be refunded (if real).
There are 0 pre-orders for 55nm gear/chips, and no pre-orders being advertised. Not the reason.

Quote

2. Ken wants to sell hardware.

Perhaps. Unfortunately, it's going to be difficult to sell it at a profit when AsicMiner is going to sell cheaper, more power-efficient chips.
Unless you're sponsoring Ken's hobby, a bad deal for you.

Quote

3. Hedge against a drop in BTC price.

How?

*The "we're using the same boards for both 28 and 55nm chips" is also utter bull. Ask me why.

The guy has been lying to you nonstop, and people have been making up the most contrived and outlandish excuses to explain away those lies. Come on.

Topic: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] - page 65. (Read 771512 times)