Topic: [ANN] AIRcoin - page 107. (Read 137283 times)

Agreed.

On the other hand...

If tied to the exchange, and the user selected, say USD, at whatever exchange...

Values below would be initially set to match the value on the date the coins were mined/deposited, on whatever exchange was selected. The last value being the actual "exchange rate per 1 coin".

The wallet would show this...
AIR           USD           USD/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.05432 @ $0.014485/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.18323 @ $0.048861/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.01433 @ $0.003821/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.11131 @ $0.029682/AIR
100 AIR = $2.21333 @ $0.022133/AIR
==============================
115 AIR = $2.57652 @ $0.0257652/AIR

Then we would see that if the value rose to $0.0410000/AIR... it would be good to sell all coins.
Then we would see that if the value fell to $0.0104000/AIR... We could sell only 3.75 for a gain, the rest would be a slight loss. Or 7.5 for nearly break-even. (third one would be removed, since it is the lowest valued 3.75, and assumed to be the one sold.)

Also, as a whole, we constantly see the "value".

If we select BTC as the value... then those $ would be replaced by BTC symbols. (If that is our goal.)

The addition of this line, at the bottom...
==============================
115 AIR = $2.57652 @ $0.0257652/AIR
==============================
Exchange Rate @ Cryptsy:
115 AIR = $4.71500 @ $0.0410000/AIR

That would show the actual value now... Thus, you instantly see what gains/losses you have, over your initial value (Or your individual "Bottom dollar".)

Plenty of room in the transactions list for that information.
Make another tab for "available funds"... like the transactions summary, with that info... and let us select which coins to sell, or auto-sell only the lowest value ones. (Does not matter which ones are actually sold, but for removal from "available funds", you would kindly remove the lowest valued ones first. Retaining the "change" to hold the same value as the last highest valued price sold.)

BTC= Rock... Rocks have value, different value to different people... Like BTC...

Comparing to BTC as AIR/BTC value, is irrelevant, unless we just want BTC. BTC is not an exit point, is is a direct conversion limitation. The "value" is still always some FIAT. You would still have to compare AIR to BTC/USD not just BTC alone. To get "value".

That is what we do now, just the hard way... Knowing it is worth 0.1BTC is useless unless you know the "value" of BTC in some form of FIAT. (Even things purchased with BTC, have determined BTC-cost based on FIAT-Value of BTC/FIAT, before setting the "cost" in BTC. BTC is a "Cost" not a "Value".)

That is why Alts should be going up, as BTC falls in value. So they equal the same FIAT-Value. When they do not rise with BTC fall, they are actually falling in value too. When they rise, if they don't rise enough to cover value, they are still falling. If they fall when BTC falls, then they are loosing value exponentially. (Since they are traded against BTC/FIAT value.)

BTW, expectations in BTC-Mining-Reward is not what we expect, as miners. BTC is not the most rewarding to mine. Usually it is never the most rewarding to mine. Just a forced-output, to get to FIAT. (A hindrance.)

You want an alt to thrive, with actual value comparison... Create a direct FIAT exchange. (Even if only private, at first, to investors. For a true base-line, which can be used to guide what the coin is worth, compared to BTC.)

Ok, rant done. Just expressing my long-term concern and commitment, indicating that if tied to just "BTC-reward", and not "BTC/USD Value", my stay will not be long here. Especially if "my value" will be "manipulated", without control, by another individual. Defeats the purpose of "setting your own value". Makes it more like a FIAT, which is almost counter-productive to the point of the coin in the first place.

Good though, that you can only actually manipulate the miners rewards, and not the actual coins value, once mined. (Except through direct purchases and sales on the exchanges we are listing on.) As a miner though, this is not looking like it offers much of an incentive. Knowing that the coin I mined is what it is, but future coins mined will be manipulated just prior to actually finding them, is slightly disturbing. One bug, and we all of a sudden have 1000000 coin rewards, or 0.000000001 coin rewards, and a resulting cluster-f**k of market adjustments that burden everyone, not just those few buggy rewards that failed a floating-point conversion, or pulled/fed bad value data, at the time they mined the reward. (Blind miners would mine for days before they had a chance to respond. Hoppers would know instantly, and jump-off or jump-on depending on the error.)

The only thing that would have let you completely "regulate" the coin, is if all coins actually got mined directly to the "primary exchange", and had to be extracted from there, before going into a users wallet, for secondary exchange or use. Since these go right into our wallets, we can use any exchange, or no exchange. You only have the ability to manipulate exchanges themselves. Not person to person exchanges.

Manipulating non-owned exchanges may eventually kick you in the butt... Remember, exchanges are not regulated. They could list fake low values, to get you to fork-over more coins, or fake high values, for the same reason. Trying to manipulate them would put us ALL at risk, not just you. If you lost, trying to manipulate those external markets.


Something you just won't be able to prove, and thus, will become fueled by the majority, who "have to lose" so the "few can gain", since "everyone can't just gain", or there would be no gains at all. (Unless someone just kept dumping millions of dollars into the exchange, adding value. Someone is losing on those trades, and those gaining will be less, or the gains will not be "large". If "small", then there are still more losers, losing, though there are still more winning less.) Same problems banks face when offering CD's and savings-rewards... (Then they still have to take-out overhead costs and CEO pay and losses from defaults. Leaves little reward.)

Now... If value is taken from other markets... Wait.. take value from BTC and you reduce our reward as BTC value too... Seems like a catch-22 unless you are taking value from other locations like other alts, and gold, silver, oil, IBM, APPLE, ENRON...

Nevertheless, we should think about setting up a pool. I have a feeling difficulty will rise fast.

difficulty : 0.31372220

Still acceptable for solo. Mined ~37 AIR last night.

Thank you for an interesting read.

Finally some truly innovative coin.

We use BTC because it is the earliest "point of exit" for the coin. We could describe AIR in terms of the value of rocks, but to buy rocks you will have to find points of sale, which would require AIR>BTC>USD>Rocks until a rock salesman decided to start accepting AIR.

When an exchange for AIR/USD opens up, we'll describe it in terms of AIR/USD. For now, we are launching on an AIR/BTC exchange first.

---

http://www.teamaircoin.org/whitepaper.pdf

We're releasing an internal response to that paper soon, along with a revised edition.

Agreed... They make TLDR worth reading.

These guys know what they are doing. Obviously, they are bankers and politicians, not kids and programmers.

P.S. That was not an insult to bankers and politicians... Nor to kids and programmers.

EDIT: Just had a weird Déjà-vu there...

Would be interesting to see a coin that actually had two exchange-rates...

One for "unspent" minted block-rewards, (virgin coins).
One for "living" coins, (coins moved to any output, other than the virgin exchange).

Once moved, it is now a living coin. The special "mint exchange", would be for us miners only. Only virgin coins accepted for deposits. All coin withdraws would have to move out to a wallet, or onto the "live" exchange.

Thus, keeping mining value slightly distant from actual coins being used/traded, once separated from the miners grip/possession.
(Not that I believe this coin should do that. It was just a thought which came as I read your reply.)

The one thing I always wanted coins to do, is have a tie-in to any exchange the user actually trades on. For the only purpose of showing the coins values, as they were earned or accepted and spent. (Even if only the final average, based off the "received by date" of the incoming transaction.)

For miners, traders, and users... This would help a lot. Letting them know that the value NOW, is less than the average value of the coin they had originally mined or obtained. (Excessive to show each individual coins value, but not impossible, since each tx has a date and each exchange has historic charts.) On the plus side, it could let some people more comfortable letting some go at a slight loss or increase spending when value was high. On the negative side, it could stall use of the coin when value is too low. (Both can be swapped, depending on the situation, as being positive or negative.) This, as opposed to just having to "remember" what the value was when you got the coins, which is impossible to do. Also, knowing the price now is almost irrelevant, as lower prices could still be a gain to some holders. While higher prices might actually be a loss, to some.

Just throwing more stuff around for your code-guru's to play with.

Might also want some of the traders, that will be adding value in the future, to be forced to "put their money where their mouth is". That is a slightly uncommon, but highly effective tool to reduce risk as a trader. You force them to put-up a percentage of their own finances, to trade with others finances. If they are unwilling to risk their own funds, then they should not be allowed to risk others funds. (That is how I do brokering. I won't make a trade, with others funds, that I would not make myself.) Just telling them they get a percentage of the reward, is not enough. Nor is telling them that they must take a percentage of the loss... (or all the trade-loss, for "no-risk" broker-trading.)

P.S. I don't like the idea of being tied to BTC-Value, since BTC is not a fixed value. Being worth 0.1BTC means nothing, without knowing what that 0.1BTC is worth in the denomination you will be withdrawing/buying with. That is one of the major flaws in cryptsy. It shows you value in BTC. It should show value in USD or CNY or JPY, based off BTC-Val/USD CNY JPY, etc... but only because you are actually trading in BTC as the medium. Going from 0.1BTC val to 0.2BTC val is not a gain, if BTC just dropped in value from $1200 USD to $200 USD... it would be a loss, and thus, makes it a useless base for "value comparison". (Since you have to value BTC as some currency, then that should be the foundation for representation, and expressed as such.) But, if you only use BTC as the value, that is fine by me. Because at the moment, my goal is simply more BTC, no matter what the cost is now. But that is not everyone's desire.

Considering that Vertcoin's exchange rate has fallen to 50% in the last 2 weeks (there's nothing there to raise the rate, only slow it from falling), and Auroracoin is about to experience massive inflation from the airdrop, I'd say we have a good chance at surviving a lot longer and with a lot better rate.

I imagine that if BTC had gone up since Feb. 8th (as opposed to crashing) Vertcoin would have seen a much worse exchange rate drop too, since there's still a lot of demand to "shelter" holdings in Altcoins until BTC comes back up.

Auroracoin is an interesting case though, and it can't be judged on its speculative rate alone. I think it's an important (if a little misguided) step toward cryptocurrency adoption, but AIRcoin is playing a very different game in aiming for investment viability rather than ubiquitous usage.

That's right there is no pool yet so it's good old solo mining for now...

Everyone always yells virus when a new coin is launched so nothing new there.

Have you read the white paper by Alexander yet?

http://www.teamaircoin.org/whitepaper.pdf

It's very interesting what he has written there.

I think a lot of Aurora and VTC miners will start move to  this coin soon.

See this post:


Another user ran our wallet through an anti-virus. Only a chinese-based antivirus software (likely a false positive, although it could flag anything even remotely related to bitcoin) alerted. All reputable anti-virus scans clear fine.

So far, those who were interested in setting up pools and have contacted us have not taken the initiative to set up a pool themselves, as far as our development team knows. As soon as we are alerted of a new pool, we will let you guys know.


We've observed that the Mining market and the Exchange market trend toward .00002500 BKD or Bitcoin-equivalent-per-kilohash-per-day (+/-.000005 BKD). This is caused by two effects:

1. Miners sell for Bitcoin, rather than buy other currencies, since they mine instead of buying
2. Miners will gravitate toward mining whatever coin is most profitable at the time
3. If a coin is not profitable to mine, it will instead be bought directly

This means that the market for mined coins (using "difficulty" as an exchange rate balancing out hashing power (demand) and block reward (supply)) and the market for buying coins (exchange sites, which have buy orders for demand and sell orders for supply) are self-regulating. The difference is that the supply and demand of the exchange rate market, and the demand of the mining market, are all based on human action. But the supply of the mining market is not, and can't be changed readily by humans. This makes for some interesting interplay between these markets as they try to self-regulate. This phenomena is called "trending toward the BKD".

It works like having many restaurants next to eachother. As customers flood one restaurant that tastes the best, the restaurant raises prices. This causes them to go to competitor restaurants. However, each restaurant in the area is pulling in supply from a food supplier, so if a restaurant doesn't change their price, (and people consume anyway) then the supply is going to run thin and the supplier will have to raise their price forcing a price raise at the restaurant. The relationships between buyers and sellers can be seen as that of the customer and the restaurant, and the restaurant and the supplier's relationship is that of the miner and the mining algorithm. There are a finite number of customers (buyers or miners), but there could be an infinite number restaurants (coins) each with their own supplier (algorithm).

If the BKD gets higher than the top average BKD (somewhere around .00002500 for coins listed on an exchange, it doesn't tend to move back and forth much), then miners will mine and sell the currency, dropping the exchange rate, OR more miners will come and enter the mining pool, raising the difficulty. This brings the BKD back down. If the BKD gets too low, then miners will move on to more profitable coins, lowering the difficulty, or people will buy the coin on exchanges instead of mining, raising the prices.

This dual-equilibrium (outlined in Alexander's whitepaper as well) is one method of exchange rate control.

At the current difficulty (which is about to rise in about 100 blocks) this puts the "equivalent" exchange rate (if AIR was being exchanged) at ~.0000875 +/- .000025 BTC. If that exchange rate was any lower, then the difficulty should drop to reflect that. That is, again, due to those three assumptions that tie demand-for-mining and demand-for-buying. This means coins mined during this period will try to stabilize toward $0.0464 USD/AIR, with resistance to move above or below that price. As you stated, this number will too grow.

If difficulty goes from .25 to 1 in the next period, the projected exchange rate will rise to $0.232 AIR. Since blocks are being released about once every 30-50 seconds, we can expect the next difficulty to be close to 2x-4x larger, to restablize to blocks being released once every 2 minutes, bringing us to an AIR/BTC rate of .00034, which is $0.1972/AIR. Since we expect within a few days for this value to trend (as hashing power increases) to $0.50USD/AIR, we're right on track. We'll see if it gets close to $0.50 USD/AIR by the end of tomorrow.

So if you take the "minimal cost possible" from ISAWHIM's post, and allow it to trend toward the BKD-equivalent coins will be worth about .00034 BTC/AIR once we open on an exchange. This is assuming there is not additional demand beyond being a liquid asset that can be converted to BTC, which would raise the price further.

When that "bottom dollar" cost per coin meets the "BKD equivalent" price per coin, then there will be no additional demand for mining the coin, and all further demand will be pointed at the exchange rate.

So, in other words, coins mined today are worth 27x times more than what it costs for ISAWHIM to mine, if they remain near the top and are not subject to other market forces that would drop the exchange rate.

And thank you for the suggestions, ISAWHIM, to the front post. We're still making minor improvements to our website (including finishing up our Forums) and there's a lot of wording or grammatical errors that may need fixed or made more clear. Hopefully we'll soon have it refined to the point where anyone can jump up and start mining or using AIRcoin without having any cryptocoin experience before.

There doesn't any pool without sources. And Windows wallet may has virus

Got 2 solid connections now.

Coin is running perfect.

With my smaller work-load size, of 64*, this is my results.

Difficulty: (16.4K) 0.250244140625
Blocks: 70 accepted
Time: 9 Hrs
Hash/Pow: 3 MHs / 1200 Wh (1.2KWh)
Acc/Rej: 70/15 = 85 [17% rejects] * Due to small workload, rejects may be higher than yours
Coins: 260.40

Daily estimate: 694.40 Per day @ 3 MHs = (231.46666/MHs/Day)
Electric cost: $5.00 per day

Estimated "bottom dollar" cost per coin, at the moment: $0.0072004608294931 USD/AIR
Estimated "bottom dollar" coins per dollar, at the moment: 138.88 AIR/USD

Estimates would imply that I only made $5.00 per day mining, to cover electric costs only, at my local rates and at my estimated power consumption of my rig. That is not the trade-value I would expect/hope to get in the future. That is only the "bottom dollar", which is needed in value, to make the coin equal to zero-value. As opposed to being negative OROI (Operating Return On Investment).

Similar coin rewards of this yield, would expect to return $18.00 to $10.00 per day, at 3 MHs, after the $5.00 electric cost has been removed. ($23.00 to $15.00 if electricity was free.)

Figured this might help to determine some reasonable starting value.

Not sure how accurate those estimates are... Since it takes 24-hrs for the coin to adjust to actual workload/yield. Might be getting more than expected, or way less than expected.

P.S. What the heck is that logo? Not sure what to think of it. Looks like a grave-stone/coffin with an upside-down "?" etched on it.

Just asking... because that is not clear. Might be in the TLDR stuff.

P.P.S. "Coin Supply can last between 100 and 1000+ Years" Might want to change that to say...
"Initial Mining-reward can last between 100 and 1000+ Years"

Don't want people thinking the coin-supply itself is only going to last that long! (Supply is usually "captured assets", not "uncaptured assets"... You don't refer to unmined gold as a "supply", only mined gold sitting in vaults is a "supply". (It is unknown how much gold the earth actually contains. )

Found on the ABOUT page... http://teamaircoin.org/about/

Do not download oreocoin, but please have a look at that oreocoin
disaster, and you might start to understand what you are demanding.


CAREFUL WITH THIS COIN, UNTIL THE SOURCECODE IS RELEASED!


I am very much interested
in seeing your block reward idea live,
but ... sorry, your coin is too risky right now.

Now 3 connections.

[
{
"addr" : "107.170.20.200:1631",
"services" : "00000003",
"lastsend" : 1393186383,
"lastrecv" : 1393186369,
"bytessent" : 1599,
"bytesrecv" : 5093,
"blocksrequested" : 0,
"conntime" : 1393186130,
"version" : 70002,
"subver" : "/Satoshi2:0.8.6.2/",
"inbound" : false,
"startingheight" : 4571,
"banscore" : 0,
"syncnode" : true
},
{
"addr" : "46.249.59.220:35831",
"services" : "00000003",
"lastsend" : 1393186383,
"lastrecv" : 1393186383,
"bytessent" : 1736,
"bytesrecv" : 230,
"blocksrequested" : 0,
"conntime" : 1393186382,
"version" : 70002,
"subver" : "/Satoshi2:0.8.6.2/",
"inbound" : true,
"startingheight" : 4575,
"banscore" : 0
},
{
"addr" : "46.249.59.220:64028",
"services" : "00000003",
"lastsend" : 1393186408,
"lastrecv" : 1393186408,
"bytessent" : 1736,
"bytesrecv" : 230,
"blocksrequested" : 0,
"conntime" : 1393186407,
"version" : 70002,
"subver" : "/Satoshi2:0.8.6.2/",
"inbound" : true,
"startingheight" : 4575,
"banscore" : 0
}
]

are there any pools yet for this coin?

I have one connection too and yesterday successfully mined solo. Confirmed, not orphans.