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Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Foundation - page 36. (Read 127621 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
September 28, 2012, 12:06:04 PM
Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.

Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people.

IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.  The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday.  Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh, it's an advocacy group? Well then, maybe they should rename themselves to "Bitcoin advocacy group" and relinquish any ownership of any Bitcoin assets at all. Then I'll be all for it.

Like I said, please don't troll me.

Meh.  Ok, it isn't exactly an advocacy group.  But it isn't an evil wizard either.  From reference.com, a foundation is:
Quote
6.  an institution financed by a donation or legacy to aid research, education, the arts, etc.: the Ford Foundation.

An organization was created to support bitcoin in various ways.  A bunch of people have donated to it.  What is your problem with that exactly?

If bitcoin was vulnerable to hostile takeover, it was even more vulnerable before than it is now.  (Hint: it isn't and wasn't.)  Now a bunch of real people, with real names, have put their real wealth and real reputations behind an effort to improve things for everyone.  If you don't like the way we are doing it (I'm using "we" to include mere members like me, and donors, not just officers), help us, or start your own.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
September 28, 2012, 12:05:06 PM
I'm not going to address conspiracy theories, mostly because I'm not seeing most of them because of who I've got on my ignore list.
Very good trick if u have nothing to say in ur defense! I hope that the spokesperson of "TBF" won't use it too often...
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 12:04:57 PM
Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.

Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people.

IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.  The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday.  Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh, it's an advocacy group? Well then, maybe they should rename themselves to "Bitcoin advocacy group" and relinquish any ownership of any Bitcoin assets at all. Then I'll be all for it.

Like I said, please don't troll me.

What do you mean by bitcoin assets? the code? or coins themselves?

The foundation has never claimed to own the code.

Assets:
-lead dev
-dev team
-git repository access

Is there anything else that matters and one can own when it comes to Bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
September 28, 2012, 12:01:42 PM
Here is a simple Yes/No question.

I will re-post it periodically until it's answered by someone involved with TBF at a high level. It's essentially asking about limits on power another way than I did here, which still hasn't received a response by someone involved at a high level at TBF:

Should the Bitcoin Foundation intentionally and explicitly seek to LIMIT its power in every way possible which does not diminish its ability to accomplish its goals?


Answering this question 'yes' should be very easy if the purpose of TBF is truly what it's being marketed as, which is solely aimed at helping Bitcoin progress.

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.

Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people.

IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.  The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday.  Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh, it's an advocacy group? Well then, maybe they should rename themselves to "Bitcoin advocacy group" and relinquish any ownership of any Bitcoin assets at all. Then I'll be all for it.

Like I said, please don't troll me.

What do you mean by bitcoin assets? the code? or coins themselves?

The foundation has never claimed to own the code.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
September 28, 2012, 11:54:08 AM
If this Foundation is really such a wonderful idea why then did you keep it's formation (founders, bylaws, mission statement, allocation of salaries, ect) private?

You have a confused concept of "private":

Founders: https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/about/board
Bylaws: https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo
Mission statement: https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/about/
Allocation of salaries: nothing is being paid yet, AFAICT from reading this thread

Quote
Why didn't you open a public thread on this forum and let everyone have an input how such an organization, if one was wanted or warranted in the first place, should be structured.

If you want to have a say in a self-organized group, become a member.  Or create your own foundation.

That's the beauty of the free market.

hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1008
September 28, 2012, 11:53:43 AM
Some of the people involved in this foundation are a part of a cabal known as the Jekyll Island Bitcoin Society.  The secret plans of this organization are anyones' guess.  Is it a mere coincidence that the formation of this foundation follows so closely on the heels of their convening meeting on Aug 22nd in NYC?
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 2301
Chief Scientist
September 28, 2012, 11:51:15 AM
Thanks for all the positive, constructive feedback (those of you who gave positive, constructive feedback). I'm not going to address conspiracy theories, mostly because I'm not seeing most of them because of who I've got on my ignore list.

The points people made here about the Foundation making Bitcoin MORE decentralized are, from my point of view, exactly right. To take one example, I don't want to be the centralized decision-maker who figures out who should or should not be on the bitcoin-press mailing list that is on the bitcoin.org homepage any more. To take another: if there is money for the development team, I don't want to decide how to split it up (I've got an obvious conflict of interest).

RE: why Peter and why not anonymous members and why DC and why not a different process to start:

Because I'm pragmatic.  I like to actually get things accomplished instead of endlessly talking about doing things. Everybody on the initial Board are people who get things done.

My biggest fear is not that the Foundation will become some massively powerful entity controlling Bitcoin; my biggest fear is that the Foundation will turn into Yet Another Ineffective Bureaucracy, employing a few people who do nothing but put out meaningless press releases.

RE: confirmation-of-payment emails:  that will be done soon.

RE: bylaws:

In the spirit of openness, the Foundation bylaws are on github:
  https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo/tree/master/Bylaws
Quote
These bylaws are distributed under the MIT License and may be forked for use in creating any new member-driven nonprofit corporation or for any other use.

Creating forums or mailing lists where Foundation members can communicate is on the very short-term TODO list.

Thanks again to everybody who has already joined, it is exciting to see people from all over the world get involved!
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 11:49:01 AM
Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.

Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people.

IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.  The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday.  Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh, it's an advocacy group? Well then, maybe they should rename themselves to "Bitcoin advocacy group" and relinquish any ownership of any Bitcoin assets at all. Then I'll be all for it.

Like I said, please don't troll me.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
September 28, 2012, 11:44:29 AM
Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.

Next time, cut bigger air holes in your tinfoil mask, or just use a tinfoil beanie like normal people.

IF someone pushed for something malicious, and no one but Atlas and a couple of other forum tools even imagine that anyone would, it wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.  The people that could fuck you tomorrow are the same people that could fuck you yesterday.  Having an advocacy group doesn't change a damn thing.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
September 28, 2012, 11:41:45 AM
It's good that the Foundation will be funding development and representing Bitcoin legally, but it's important that the ownership of Bitcoin-related assets doesn't become too centralized. In particular, the Foundation should not:
- Control bitcoin.org
- Control any DNS seeds, etc.
- Own copyright on the Bitcoin source code
- Own any patents
- Own the Bitcoin trademark (unless someone has to own it)

I've answered this on reddit and similar sentiments in the comment section of my recent article, but I also want to post here. [No comment from me on copyrights and patents, because I don't believe in them and I don't support their infrastructure.]

theymos, thank you. I considered those issues as well prior to accepting the offer to join the board (and the specific direction is still being debated in multiple venues such as this forum). The success and organization of the Tor Project had a lot to do with my decision.

As a libertarian and non-Statist on the Foundation board, I think that other libertarians and non-Statists would mostly agree that a transparent organization is preferable to a 'single anointed individual' that can select the next 'single anointed individual' in a non-transparent fashion (the community never voiced their opinion on Gavin taking over lead role for Satoshi — it just happened). Although it has worked out well, no one can guarantee the longevity of Gavin in that role.

Open source software is actually more vulnerable to discreet State pressures and random bribery when only one, or a few, steer core protocol development without any community input on succession planning. A centralized individual is more corruptible than a group and the foundation is actually a step towards de-centralization in that regard.

Additionally, I would think that bitcoin users in general would welcome a check-and-balance on the core development group that may or may not have been involved in receiving clandestine compensation on the side. Of course, nothing prevents that from occurring now or in the future but I believe that an accountable, nonprofit foundation would decrease its likelihood.

Come on Jon, I thought better of you.

You got it all backwards. Open source is incorruptible as long as people remain vigilant. It's impossible to sneak something malicious into the code even if some developer is getting paid on the side - if people pay attention. What you have done now is actually weaken this vigilance because a lot of the user base is going to rely on you - the board members - to be vigilant for them.

We had checks and balances - the open source code anyone could read, and everyone was forced to read if they wanted to make sure.

Now we have a political centralized service provider (the structure of which ensures that corporate + founders always have the majority) that only part of the community supports and that wants to be the face of something they have no control over, they have no ownership over and are going to give a false sense of security to some users diminishing the vigilance that will be necessary to protect the core of Bitcoin.




If this Foundation is really such a wonderful idea why then did you keep it's formation (founders, bylaws, mission statement, allocation of salaries, ect) private? Why didn't you open a public thread on this forum and let everyone have an input how such an organization, if one was wanted or warranted in the first place, should be structured.

I'm sorry but I don't like what you did with this Foundation one bit because I don't trust that you'll do what is best for my own personal interest because I do not pay you and I didn't give you my explicit consent arranged with a contract to do so. All I can do now is hope you remain powerless and hope that I am left alone to experience Bitcoin as I wish. And judging by history of mankind I get the sense this hope is all in vain.

+1

Just logged in and got caught up reading... *sigh* I've got a lot of posting to do today.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
September 28, 2012, 11:40:02 AM
How about the Bitcoin Freedom Foundation? Then we could all be BFFs.

As another poster noted it shouldn't have "the" in the name. That suggests it speaks for Bitcoin. Hello??? Bitcoin is decentralized?

THE is fine as long as it's not THE Bitcoin Foundation.

For example:

The Friends of Karples Foundation.


You may be getting warmer: Friends of Bitcoin (?)
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 11:34:31 AM
is there any difference between the industry membership levels?


The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives.  The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent.

Yeah that's a real cake right there: corporate + founding members always have the majority, very "representative".  Roll Eyes

So do the corporate + individual members.  Or the individual + founding members.  This is very simple math.  Are you surprised that 2+1>5/2 and 2+2>5/2 ?   Roll Eyes

Please don't troll me. We all know who of these three groups is the most likely to try and push for something malicious and who of these three groups is the most likely to agree with it being bought and paid for and who of these three groups is the most likely to get screwed in the end powerless to stop it.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
September 28, 2012, 11:32:35 AM
To those ones who wanna Decentralization:

JUST start your own bitcoin foundation. don't waste your time to criticize Gavin's work.

...or we can just declare independence from this one and make sure its purported authority is not recognized. Then we can let others work as they see fit.

I don't want a foundation. I don't want power. I just want people to leave my money alone. I don't want mob rule putting a backdoor in Bitcoin.

What are you going to do to stop them from forming and maintaining their foundation? What are you going to do to keep them from seizing power and leaving "your money alone"? What makes you think the mob would undermine their own financial freedom by putting a backdoor in place?

Go ahead and declare independence if you want. Why don't you go and boycott all the coins they receive while you're at it.

They are free to form a collective just as you are free to form or join one of your choosing or abstain from these all together.


I can't help but comment on two points already made:

1) Silk Road becoming Platinum Member.
2) People with money, can buy their way in changing (or destroying) bitcoin.


1) Is anyone allowed to become a member? If not, what are the rules/restrictions?

They have something on their web page about disallowing felons. So I guess that means no Silkroad, no BFL.
...possession of crack cocaine--picked up a girl for you know what and before dropping her off where I found her, made a pit stop for her to make a buy (dropped, after wearing a wire to help with another investigation)(first and last time I've ever seen crack/cocaine).

I would rather have the person charged and convicted of possessing crack cocaine on the board than a snitch. Just my personal opinion.

At the time, pressure was put on me to cooperate or be charged with the felony. I lived in southern Mississippi at the time (not the Biloxi area) and the judge and DA were really cracking down on the drug dealers then. I wore the wire, but not a single person purchased from me, but I fulfilled my part of the deal. Shortly thereafter, I left the state to Vegas to play live poker full time, and not sure what ever became of that suit, which by now should be null and void being that it's been over seven years.

Just wanted to state the facts for all to read.

~Bruno K~
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
September 28, 2012, 11:32:27 AM
is there any difference between the industry membership levels?


The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives.  The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent.

Yeah that's a real cake right there: corporate + founding members always have the majority, very "representative".  Roll Eyes

So do the corporate + individual members.  Or the individual + founding members.  This is very simple math.  Are you surprised that 2+1>5/2 and 2+2>5/2 ?   Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 11:27:04 AM
is there any difference between the industry membership levels?


The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives.  The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent.

Yeah that's a real cake right there: corporate + founding members always have the majority, very "representative".  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1001
September 28, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
"Warning - while you were reading 193 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

LOL

For the record, I LOVE that the Foundation exists now. I think this is a huge positive step for Bitcoin. Few negatives, plenty of positives. I also understand the concern many people feel - we should always be diligent and skeptical of anyone trying to be "the face" of Bitcoin. But in this case specifically, and to the extent this Foundation can act in certain manners for certain goals, I think it's a very legitimate development and I'll be joining as a paying member here soon.



I must wonder if you'd be saying the same if Charlie wasn't a board member. Not that I think you're trying to be manipulative, it's just it's hard to believe you are looking at this objectively and aren't highly biased.

BTW is it just me or is the foundation website being DDOSed?

It either is being DDOSed or they've taken it offline for some reason.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
"Warning - while you were reading 193 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

LOL

For the record, I LOVE that the Foundation exists now. I think this is a huge positive step for Bitcoin. Few negatives, plenty of positives. I also understand the concern many people feel - we should always be diligent and skeptical of anyone trying to be "the face" of Bitcoin. But in this case specifically, and to the extent this Foundation can act in certain manners for certain goals, I think it's a very legitimate development and I'll be joining as a paying member here soon.



I must wonder if you'd be saying the same if Charlie wasn't a board member. Not that I think you're trying to be manipulative, it's just hard to believe you are looking at this objectively and aren't highly biased.

BTW is it just me or is the foundation website being DDOSed?
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
September 28, 2012, 11:10:23 AM
This is great news! I just joined as an individual member and have sent the 2.5 BTC for a one-year membership.

FYI: When I go to bitcoinfoundation.com (found via searching Google for "bitcoin foundation"), I get a message about an invalid certificate:
Code:
bitcoinfoundation.com uses an invalid security certificate.

The certificate is only valid for the following names:
  www.bitcoinfoundation.org , bitcoinfoundation.org 

(Error code: ssl_error_bad_cert_domain)
I can't reach bitcoinfoundation.org.

Anyway, I know it was just announced yesterday, so no biggie. But I thought I would mention it anyway.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
September 28, 2012, 11:00:22 AM
is there any difference between the industry membership levels?


The board has two "industry member" representatives, and two " individual member" representatives.  The seats are elected by members from the class that they represent.
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