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Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Foundation - page 46. (Read 127621 times)

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
September 27, 2012, 06:31:33 PM
Not if your message and fork is suppressed through well-fund marketing sponsored by The Bitcoin Foundation. Messages, culture and other things can be controlled. That's the main fear here: Their clout becoming the dominating message and culture of Bitcoin.

The Federalist Papers are an example of this: A well-marketed set of papers overthrew The Articles of Confederation that originally governed the United States. They successfully created a centralized, federal power structure by suppressing the message and changing it.

Sorry, not gonna work anymore in the era of the internet, especially in the cryptogeek subculture, which sustains bitcoin.
You (they) need to think of something much, much better. Raise the bar...
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
September 27, 2012, 06:29:29 PM
I have a few questions about the Foundation that I haven't seen answered anywhere else.

1. How will potential conflicts of interest be identified and addressed? Especially with regards to the relationship between the foundation and businesses associated with the board members.

2. Is there an explicit list of activities which donations might be used for, or perhaps even a list of activities which donations will never be used for?
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:27:55 PM
Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:



One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.


American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.


The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.


Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.

You still fail to grasp how Open Source world works.
If i don't like the code, I start a fork, I present the evidence that Gavin is cheating, soe people start using my fork. It is as simple as that.

Actually, I already did that once, because i didn't like official client forcing fees in some situations.

In case of such event, everybody in their right minds would use my fork, because everybody would know that Gavin's version has government's trojan. Of course, there would be major chaos at first, but after some period of time, we would be back to "normal".

Not if your message and fork is suppressed through well-fund marketing sponsored by The Bitcoin Foundation. Messages, culture and other things can be controlled. That's the main fear here: Their clout becoming the dominating message and culture of Bitcoin.

The Federalist Papers are an example of this: A well-marketed set of papers overthrew The Articles of Confederation that originally governed the United States. They successfully created a centralized, federal power structure by suppressing the message and changing it.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
September 27, 2012, 06:27:28 PM
Atlas this is happening now, with or without the foundation, makes no difference
anyone can go and change the bitcoin soruce code.
and guess who looks over the changes...
Now that they just put a cute label on their team, and you go nuts...  Huh

you should be happy now that they are no longer an underground mysterious group of people.

+1

No, -1.

That's the problem. In the current system they are not "recognized officially" which inherently gives an endorsement which translates to power.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
September 27, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:



One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.


American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.


The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.


Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.

You still fail to grasp how Open Source world works.
If i don't like the code, I start a fork, I present the evidence that Gavin is cheating, so people start using my fork. It is as simple as that.

Actually, I already did that once, because i didn't like official client forcing fees in some situations.

In case of such event, everybody in their right minds would use my fork, because everybody would know that Gavin's version has government's trojan. Of course, there would be major chaos at first, but after some period of time, we would be back to "normal".
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
It doesn't matter if a few miners can fork if none of the other releases have clout.

Bullshit. Do you think we Bitcoiners are mindless masses chasing fiat profits?
Maybe not now but maybe in the future as this ecosystem grows and companies and other powers shape the culture.

Every founding country trust its original people.

So the nouveau bitcoin change things to suit them. I don't use their protocol, neither do those that made the original block chain grow as fast as it has. And we are back at square one, but perhaps with a bit more wisdom.

I would prefer this protocol to be the major currency and not whatever monstrosity the government and this corporation controls.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
September 27, 2012, 06:22:37 PM
Atlas this is happening now, with or without the foundation, makes no difference
anyone can go and change the bitcoin soruce code.
and guess who looks over the changes...
Now that they just put a cute label on their team, and you go nuts...  Huh

you should be happy now that they are no longer an underground mysterious group of people.

+1
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:19:51 PM
I'ts not difficult to list someone as a founding member even if they "disappeared"

It's not difficult, it's just a lie. As the name "Bitcoin Foundation" itself, since you're not the foundation of Bitcoin.

Whats a lie?

Satoshi is a member of the foundation because he is the creator of Bitcoin.

Just because he "disappeared" doesn't mean he can't be member in absentee.

In fact, the bylaws outline that if Satoshi returns how he will claim his seat.

Satoshi cannot be a member at all until he provides his name and address, so how can he be a "founding member"?

This dichotomy will always fester away at the core of the "Foundation" ... just so you know, that it is based on a lie.

+1
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:18:11 PM
Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:



One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.


American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.


The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.


Not if evil is redefined over time by The Bitcoin Foundation and people accept the message.
full member
Activity: 141
Merit: 100
September 27, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
We are trying to go bank-account-less and do all incoming and outgoing payments with BTC, including payroll. Dogfooding Bitcoin as currency-of-a-corporation is one of my favorite things about the Foundation, actually.

Wow!  +100 there

You gotta walk the walk.



Thanks! I'm super psyched about it, actually. Gavin and I were discussing how awesome actual cryptographically secured payment controls would be for business owners and bookkeepers, there's also a whole set of businesses that I can imagine which need to be built out -- like payroll companies for Bitcoin, payables companies for Bitcoin.. It's really exciting to think about, and it's one reason we decided to repeg the bitcoin-USD rate only every so often, we're trying to go totally Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
September 27, 2012, 06:17:38 PM
What most of the people here are missing is that the foundation got founded, because Bitcoin is going mainstream.

It is not possible to go mainstream without any official body that will represent us, comercially & legally. Ever.
The real world is not decentralized as Bitcoin network is, so we need some kind of gateway between both worlds.

This is the basic and real reason the foundation was created


First, it's not necessary to use large font and take up page space to make a statement. Second, is your statement opinion or likely fact, and why?

Oh, sorry for that - it's just my opinion.

It's getting messy here, so i had to increase the font.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
September 27, 2012, 06:16:44 PM
I'ts not difficult to list someone as a founding member even if they "disappeared"

It's not difficult, it's just a lie. As the name "Bitcoin Foundation" itself, since you're not the foundation of Bitcoin.

Whats a lie?

Satoshi is a member of the foundation because he is the creator of Bitcoin.

Just because he "disappeared" doesn't mean he can't be member in absentee.

In fact, the bylaws outline that if Satoshi returns how he will claim his seat.

Satoshi cannot be a member at all until he provides his name and address, so how can he be a "founding member"?

This dichotomy will always fester away at the core of the "Foundation" ... just so you know, that it is based on a lie.

For that reason, I'm not joining ... I might make independent donations to Gavin for his time ... I didn't know he needed the cash actually or would have donated earlier.
hero member
Activity: 597
Merit: 500
September 27, 2012, 06:16:38 PM
I understand how people are convinced that transparency can hold things accountable but it won't if The Bitcoin Foundation seeks more power through Congress and cultural manipulation. IF it labels itself as the standards body, it may become hard to challenge. People may accept it and its software with little question. This is a reasonable fear.

WHOEVER CONTROLS THE MAJOR CODE RELEASES, CONTROLS BITCOIN.


It doesn't matter if a few miners can fork if none of the other releases have clout.

This post is really a good piece of modern phylosophy.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
September 27, 2012, 06:15:55 PM
Unless Gavin accepts the "long-arm of government" through the "official" voice of The Bitcoin Foundation. Before you know it, you'll see government backdoors in the protocol and people would be swayed into accepting it with little question because "Standards".

If anything suspicious happens, I will be the first to abandon the "official" client then.
For now, such scenario seems highly improbable.

Let me make explain it in other words:



One does not simply pass The Federal Reserve Act and conquer a whole nation through private central banking. It happened in America, the most decentralized nation of them all with a clear constitution and rules of engagement. It can happen here in the Bitcoin realm.

There are people out there who are threatened by Bitcoin. They will try to manipulate culture and have people sway to their whim. This organization is perfect for that.


American politics != Bitcoin version adoption.

Perhaps you don't understand that difference between democracy in open-source development and democracy in representative government. They're very different things.

All I know is every banking institution and technology in the world has been conquered through proxies, deceit and corruption. Every central bank in the world has been sold out to private individuals regardless of good intentions and rule of law.

You simply cannot corrupt and deceit source code, as long as there are enough eyes looking at it.
It is close to impossible.


The human factor is always the weakest factor. The source code factor - that's another story.

If humans interpret the Bitcoin source code standardization of The Bitcoin Foundation as legitimate and as the sole authority, the Bitcoin source code can change with no question as long as this authority makes the changes. The process will turn into a cult of personality. Bitcoin will rest in the hands of a single organization.

Obviously, you have no idea how programming works.
Thus, you have no ducking idea what you are talking about.

Talking to you is as useful & constructive, as talking to a duck.

I'm actually starting to wonder if you are actually a madman or perhaps you get paid to do this.

You simply fail to understand me. Source code review only works if people can easily denounce the changes without being called a troll and told to leave. If a cult around the Bitcoin Foundation forms under its implied authority and ties to Congress, it could make contesting changes obsolete.

The illusion of choice should remain but the ability may not.

Then You have no idea how internet works.

On the internet, anybody can denounce everybody, if they have proof. And it is trivial to get proof on the Internet as the necessary wisdom is everywhere accessible within seconds.

Also, programmers don't need lawyers, specialists & other expert witnesses to determine if somebody's proof is valid or not.
If somebody marks 10 lines of code, and proves that these lines contains a trojan, it is trivial to asses if he is telling the truth.

Also, you fail to see that just one evil move of the Gavin's foundation would condemn it forever, and nobody would trust it (or the people behind it) ever again.
Is that worth the risk ? Highly doubtable.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
It doesn't matter if a few miners can fork if none of the other releases have clout.

Bullshit. Do you think we Bitcoiners are mindless masses chasing fiat profits?
Maybe not now but maybe in the future as this ecosystem grows and companies and other powers shape the culture.

Every founding country trust its original people.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:13:06 PM
We will be fighting to keep the network as it is.

This is not an experiment. This is not a toy. This is real money, real value and a new frontier in liberty. We will not be losing it to a central authority.

Atlas i hear what your saying but your going over board...

He's not going overboard. He is a one hell of a crazy nutjob.

Everyone who went against The Federal Reserve Act was too.

I'm amazed that you think this is similar in any way, shape, or form. It again leads me to believe you have no idea how Bitcoin works.

I understand how people are convinced that transparency can hold things accountable but it won't if The Bitcoin Foundation seeks more power through Congress and cultural manipulation. IF it labels itself as the standards body, it may become hard to challenge. People may accept it and its software with little question. This is a reasonable fear.

WHOEVER CONTROLS THE MAJOR CODE RELEASES, CONTROLS BITCOIN.


It doesn't matter if a few miners can fork if none of the other releases have clout. It doesn't matter if other releases are suppressed by legal means.
hero member
Activity: 530
Merit: 500
September 27, 2012, 06:10:52 PM
who ever doesn't like this new development with foundation can vote with their bitcoin,
just sell,
it is that easy
No, you sell. We will be fighting to keep the network as it is.

This is not an experiment. This is not a toy. This is real money, real value and a new frontier in liberty. We will not be losing it to a central authority.


why should I sell ?
no complaints here

and so many "real moneys" have vanished through history, ended up as experiments,
each of us is living our own experiment

I think this is good, it solves part of the "tangibility" and backing issue that people have against bitcoin
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
September 27, 2012, 06:09:57 PM
What most of the people here are missing is that the foundation got founded, because Bitcoin is going mainstream.

It is not possible to go mainstream without any official body that will represent us, comercially & legally. Ever.
The real world is not decentralized as Bitcoin network is, so we need some kind of gateway between both worlds.

This is the basic and real reason the foundation was created


First, it's not necessary to use large font and take up page space to make a statement. Second, is your statement opinion or likely fact, and why?
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 27, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
We will be fighting to keep the network as it is.

This is not an experiment. This is not a toy. This is real money, real value and a new frontier in liberty. We will not be losing it to a central authority.

Atlas i hear what your saying but your going over board...

He's not going overboard. He is a one hell of a crazy nutjob.

Everyone who went against The Federal Reserve Act was too.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 27, 2012, 06:08:26 PM
Atlas this is happening now, with or without the foundation, makes no difference
anyone can go and change the bitcoin soruce code.
and guess who looks over the changes...
Now that they just put a cute label on their team, and you go nuts...  Huh

you should be happy now that they are no longer an underground mysterious group of people.
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