Still no news about dividends? I see ICN price is rising smoothly on Kraken.
What kinda news you are looking for? How dividends work are pretty much explained out already.
Topic: [ANN] ICONOMI - Fund Management Platform - page 326. (Read 1253958 times)
What kinda news you are looking for? How dividends work are pretty much explained out already.
Still no news about dividends? I see ICN price is rising smoothly on Kraken.
What kinda news you are looking for? How dividends work are pretty much explained out already.
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Finnaly few pages of very useful comments
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I agree. Perhaps we will have our first trolls-free day
I was about to say that!
But I'm always a bit cautious about calling trolls out loud. Mostly they hear you and then are triggered. So sh! and just enjoy the silence and peace here.
Still no news about dividends? I see ICN price is rising smoothly on Kraken.
Quote
Finnaly few pages of very useful comments
Quote
I agree. Perhaps we will have our first trolls-free day
I was about to say that!
But I'm always a bit cautious about calling trolls out loud. Mostly they hear you and then are triggered. So sh! and just enjoy the silence and peace here.
I did both of that but I didn't get a clear answer from the paper or reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5gyhkk/dividends_question/)
I'm not trying to spread FUD but that answer kind of needs to be clear for traders/investors.
the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper
So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there.
"Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"
Mal,
this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before.
But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ...
If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees.
But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders.
And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH...
Clear?
best,
Jaka
Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, that is correct.
There is also a reason why this is the only way. If we would do it as you (mis)understood before, then in a case of ICNP dropping in value (imagine that an ICO into which ICNP had invested, would announce that they have been hacked and all assets stolen) we would have to ask shareholders to "return" parts of already paid dividends to cover loss... Which is of course impossible.
Finnaly few pages of very useful comments
ok, if I properly understand this, we can at all time know how much that fund is worth (assuming that the current value of investments will be known), so the price of ICN's will probabbly be designed from the value and the potential value of these investments - expected dividends?
So expect either good, better, or even better news in 2017
Edit:
Quote
Finnaly few pages of very useful comments
I agree. Perhaps we will have our first trolls-free day
Hey Jani, I am curious about your opinion on lower
Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question.
Quote
Timing the ICO is very important, and it’s more art than science. Launching an ICO in the present climate can be challenging: bitcoin is riding high, and many people are buying and holding; ethereum has had its problems over the last few months and as a result investor sentiment (not technology sentiment) is low. Great timing requires you to be very sensitive to external sentiment or to work with someone who is.
Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question.
What do you mean low liquidity? You know that there is ~4.5M usd in Iconomi.PERFORMACE fund, and that is before the second round, which will take place sometimes in 2017?
I don't see any liquidity problem in the fund since it will take time until those 4.5M+ usd are invested. I am sure that by the time Iconomi will invest the last available funds, the first investments will be at least partially sold and the profits will be available for future investments. This is basic fund management.
Looks like those buy pressure steroids on kraken are starting to influance
Looking good indeed.
I did both of that but I didn't get a clear answer from the paper or reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5gyhkk/dividends_question/)
I'm not trying to spread FUD but that answer kind of needs to be clear for traders/investors.
the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper
So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there.
"Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"
Mal,
this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before.
But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ...
If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees.
But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders.
And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH...
Clear?
best,
Jaka
Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, that is correct.
There is also a reason why this is the only way. If we would do it as you (mis)understood before, then in a case of ICNP dropping in value (imagine that an ICO into which ICNP had invested, would announce that they have been hacked and all assets stolen) we would have to ask shareholders to "return" parts of already paid dividends to cover loss... Which is of course impossible.
Finnaly few pages of very useful comments
ok, if I properly understand this, we can at all time know how much that fund is worth (assuming that the current value of investments will be known), so the price of ICN's will probabbly be designed from the value and the potential value of these investments - expected dividends?
Looks like those buy pressure steroids on kraken are starting to influence
Hey Jani, I am curious about your opinion on lower
Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question.
Quote
Timing the ICO is very important, and it’s more art than science. Launching an ICO in the present climate can be challenging: bitcoin is riding high, and many people are buying and holding; ethereum has had its problems over the last few months and as a result investor sentiment (not technology sentiment) is low. Great timing requires you to be very sensitive to external sentiment or to work with someone who is.
Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question.
...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week.
ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought.
strange, since Jani answered your post on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5bfdtw/icnp_questions/
But you are right, we didn't take under consideration in previous discussions the unrealized profit made "so far". It should, and probably will have affect on ICN price before profit realization by Iconomi team
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall 
aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective.
Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep
That person most likely know what he is doing, could even be the same person who put up the buyorders, it is kinda unlikely that someone would go and buy ICN for 60 btc in 1 go. But anything is possible for sure.
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall
aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective.
Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall
aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective.
Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep
Can you guys from ICONOMI team clear some things
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
I would not classify them like that.
We have clearly stated that ICNX (ICONOMI.index) fund is a passive fund, that will grow with growth of the "blockchain" concept/world/economy. Due to its special 15% max cap of any single currency, its goal is a realistic representation of crypto markets while keeping risk as diversified as possible.
At the same time we have introduced ICONOMI.performance (ICNP) as a high-risk, high-gain vehicle.
So where to invest is not dependent on your capital, but more on your personal investment strategy, including level of acceptable risk...
...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week.
ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought.
UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:
The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4
https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42
I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way...
Don't you freaking see that ICONOMI success is dependent on the rise and implementation of the blockchain technology in the real world? What they are doing is EXACTLY what they should be doing. USe your head and look at the big picture...
Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote:
Quote
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends
As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations?
Daparski, I think he meant that in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
I hope my illustration was clear to understand. From my experience this is how things work in the stock market world...
Please note that I am NOT claming that this will happen
as ICO world is clearly a lot different than old economy...*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
yepp, that makes sense. Good old Mal.
Can you guys from ICONOMI team clear some things
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
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