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Topic: [ANN] ICONOMI - Fund Management Platform - page 327. (Read 1253958 times)

member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 05:31:02 AM


Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.  

You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly.   Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position.  So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week.   And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees.  Correct?

If this is correct, it is a big deal.  

Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.

Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price.   Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in.   As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.



HODL !


Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote:
Quote
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends

As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations?


Daparski, I think he meant that in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realised a profit with closing its investments.

We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...

I hope my illustration was clear to understand. From my experience this is how things work in the stock market world...
Please note that I am NOT claming that this will happen Smiley as ICO world is clearly a lot different than old economy...

*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration

Jaka

sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 05:28:24 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n

really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now

Golem is a legit project, but also a long term investment. Only reason I didn't enter their ICO was the fact that they didn't have any solution ready for FIAT -> GOLEM at a time. Fiat deposits to their network are needed for them to succeed in their targeted markets. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network.

Interesting tho, Cashila has FIAT gateways in place so maybe Golem could utilize them. Wink

Quote
Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network.

Exactly! most crypto traders live in their own world and forget that all money invested in ALL cryptos so far is just a small tiny fraction of what is out there.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 05:19:05 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42



I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Roll Eyes

No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs.
After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd.


And also do not forget that investing in ICOs is always associated with some risk.
So ICNP team has to make detailed due diligence before investing.  
But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests.
This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions.
All in all that makes it a better and safer investment.

+ like Daparski said, community needs to set new rules and standards for ICOs. The whole ICO world will benefit from those.


Can you elaborate on that one, I am not sure I understood what you mean
Quote
But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests.
This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions.

If Iconomi is to invest into a specific ICO, wouldn't that mean that the team will get to know the ICO members as part of the due diligence?
sr. member
Activity: 257
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 05:18:59 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n

really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now

Golem is a legit project, but also a long term investment. Only reason I didn't enter their ICO was the fact that they didn't have any solution ready for FIAT -> GOLEM at a time. Fiat deposits to their network are needed for them to succeed in their targeted markets. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network.

Interesting tho, Cashila has FIAT gateways in place so maybe Golem could utilize them. Wink
member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 05:18:22 AM

I did both of that but I didn't get a clear answer from the paper or reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5gyhkk/dividends_question/)

I'm not trying to spread FUD but that answer kind of needs to be clear for traders/investors.

the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper

So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below?  I never found a clear answer there.

"Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.

WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?

Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"


Mal,

this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before.

But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ...

If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees.
But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders.

And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH...

Clear?

best,
Jaka


Since dividends won't be paid regularly and not before q1-q2 2017, I guess the real deal are the funds, not ICN in itself. I've the feeling a lot will dump ICN in order to enter into the funds.

Also why Golem? BOINC does the same and are already well established. Beside Golem are not going to deliver before 2018 (if they ever deliver...) so liquidation/return will not take place in a near future...

Why GOLEM? Doing due diligence we felt that it is a very solid project, with very high chance of success. Also, the team behind ticked all the right boxes, and have not only said the right things, but also their actions were on the level. And them filling the ICO in an hour proves that whole community felt the same. Anyway - you can read more about GOLEM case, as a colleague just analysed their ICO from psychology standpoint: https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42 ...

But at the same time we understood, that this will be a long term project (even their roadmap clearly say so) with not so rapid ROI. That was the reason of a fairly limited investment into their ICO (5000 ETH), which is ~ 1 % of ICNP funds.


member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 05:12:36 AM
Can a single Fund Manager start multiple funds on OFM?
This is the norm on ZuluTrade & eTORO where each Fund Manager can have a High-Risk fund & a Low-Risk fund, etc...

We have not yet finalized the details, as platform is a 2017 project, but I can already confirm that fund managers will be able to have more than 1 fund.
member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 05:10:19 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42



I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Roll Eyes

No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs.
After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd.


And also do not forget that investing in ICOs is always associated with some risk.
So ICNP team has to make detailed due diligence before investing.  
But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests.
This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions.
All in all that makes it a better and safer investment.

+ like Daparski said, community needs to set new rules and standards for ICOs. The whole ICO world will benefit from those.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
December 11, 2016, 05:09:40 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42



I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Roll Eyes

you know that performance is one major driver of dividends for us investors? It's super important to know how they will use the money. can't be more direct
member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 05:04:31 AM

I did both of that but I didn't get a clear answer from the paper or reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5gyhkk/dividends_question/)

I'm not trying to spread FUD but that answer kind of needs to be clear for traders/investors.

the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper

So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below?  I never found a clear answer there.

"Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.

WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?

Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"


Mal,

this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before.

But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ...

If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees.
But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders.

And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH...

Clear?

best,
Jaka


Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.  

You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly.   Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position.  So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week.   And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees.  Correct?

If this is correct, it is a big deal.  

Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.

Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price.   Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in.   As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.



HODL !


Mal, that is correct.

There is also a reason why this is the only way. If we would do it as you (mis)understood before, then in a case of ICNP dropping in value (imagine that an ICO into which ICNP had invested, would announce that they have been hacked and all assets stolen) we would have to ask shareholders to "return" parts of already paid dividends to cover loss... Which is of course impossible.



sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 05:03:12 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42


No free day for you guys?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 05:02:04 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42



I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Roll Eyes

No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs.
After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd.
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 1029
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
December 11, 2016, 05:00:17 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n

really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now

It seems like the GNT dev was so crap for managing his project.

The best part
Quote
Timing is (almost) everything

Inchain, and other was being a real evidence for this.   Grin
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 250
Crypto Future here i come
December 11, 2016, 04:58:47 AM
Twitter update

Presenting next article in the ICONOMI ICO fundamentals series: The psychology behind ICO funding. #ICO #ICONOMI bit.ly/2grwnZF

https://twitter.com/iconominet/status/807886737544515584
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 04:57:06 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42



I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs.
I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 508
December 11, 2016, 04:56:56 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42


Interesting article, thanks
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 04:53:14 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n

really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now

they invested very little in golem, I think it was more of a showcase than a real investment
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
December 11, 2016, 04:47:38 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n

really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now
member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
December 11, 2016, 04:47:06 AM

UPDATE:
For the pleasure of your Sunday reading, here is the next article in our ICO fundamentals series:

The psychology behind ICO funding
ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42

sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 04:42:22 AM
New article on medium - ICONOMI ICO fundamentals — 3 of 4

https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42#.k7o47if5n
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
December 11, 2016, 04:40:57 AM
Can a single Fund Manager start multiple funds on OFM?
This is the norm on ZuluTrade & eTORO where each Fund Manager can have a High-Risk fund & a Low-Risk fund, etc...

The main goal is to attract fund managers to the platform, this will make the platform robust and create a new found wealth in the crypto space, my major concern here is just that whales may take over the platform

How can whales take over the platform?
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