Topic: [ANN] NeuCoin - Easy to use, free to try, focused on micropayments - Official - page 57. (Read 196243 times)

Tempus your figures look correct to me.
Everyone has to do their own figures as nokoin will not publish.
Even published figures cannot be trusted.

How many nokoin will there be after 1 year?
http://forum.neucoin.org/t/technical-questions-and-clarifications/531/9

Speedbird,
"3bn coins at 100% annual interest will turn to 8bn in a year through compound interest. Unless I'm mistaken you'll get that if the coins stake approx. every 2 weeks. 100% per year is 4,166 percent per 2 weeks."

Kourosh, apr 19 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper"
"That's right, it's actually more often than every 2 weeks considering the decreasing interest rate. I can give you all the hypothesis if you're interested in knowing more."

oops, to near the truth, so, Kourosh better twist the figures,

Kourosh, apr 22 "member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper"
"I made a typo earlier (I edited the post), the number of coins after 1 year will be ~6.8 billion.
Let's take an example:
Imagine you buy ~$200 worth of NeuCoin at the presale, which will amount to roughly 20,000NEU.

You mine once at month 3:
New total = Old total + reward = 20,000 + 20,000 * 3/12 * 0.9593 ~ 24,797

You mine again at month 6:
New total = 24,797 + 24,797 * 3/12 * 0.9124 ~ 30,453

Again at month 9:
New total = 30,453 + 30,453 * 3/12 * 0.8675 ~ 37,057

And once more at month 12:
New total = 37,057 + 37,057 * 3/12 * 0.8245 ~ 44,695

Therefore, over one year since your rewards were compounded (how often they are compounded depends on how many coins you own), it's equivalent to a one time (44,695-20,000)/20,000~124% annual interest rate."
http://forum.neucoin.org/t/how-will-neucoins-be-mined-after-release/163/39

That is all I can find on the subject.
So Kourosh, member of the NeuCoin team and author of the white paper, deliberately misleads nokoiners.

He was correct first time. 8bn nokoin after 1 year. Not 6.8bn.
6.8bn calculated on compounding 20000 nokoin.

clearly and knowingly changed his answer, which was correct, to an answer that is wrong  

nokoin team member deliberately misinforming.

I don't agree with personal attacks. But I also disagree if somebody sells a product to the people with promises and some hype but without explaining very important aspects. Here in this thread are a lot of more or less smart theories about it, because there are not enough hard informations about it. In my eyes it's just a lot of smoke. I mean, take a part like this:

"To optimize for growth and adoption, a large share of the foundations’ endowment will be given to consumers in exchange for engaging with, trying out, and referring friends to NeuCoin. Another large block will be awarded to companies that help NeuCoin grow its user base and become more useful: game publishers and content providers that accept microtransactions with NeuCoin tokens, exchanges, wallets, consumer mining services, payment processors, remittance services, discounted group shopping services, marketing and distribution partners and other key services to NeuCoin users. Finally, some will be sold, with proceeds used by the foundations to increase the value of NeuCoin through consumer marketing, utility development, and core coin development."


Sounds nice, right? But it just needs one calculation to show it's complete bullshit with the  inflation-design they've choosen.


They sold 100 Mio to the public (or tried to...), and if I'm right the price was at (or about) 0.00004 BTC... And they stake more than 8 Mio Coins every day which would be worth >300 BTC at that price. They can't sell it... it would damage the market. But what's that for calculations? Since they went live they staked 63 Mio Coins out of nothing. That's a 63%-inflation out of market perspective in just one week. Again: "Only" 100 Mio are right now on the market.


How can anybody believe that something like this can have any value on the market if it's produced like dust. It's a complete joke in my eyes. And maybe the Neucoin-Supporter (public-Investors) are so blinded by the "big names" that they don't ask those questions but they should know it.

In my eyes, the Neucoin-team should calculate possible scenarios... they should calculate their own strategy in best case and show it to the public. That would show what would be needed to realize that. And than, everybody could come to own conclusions if he/she believes that it's possible.

And to be more clear about that point: I don't know if the team behind has the intention to scam. If yes, it's a bad scam-strategy. If no, it's a bad designed project as well. But what I know for fact: It's dishonest to make marketing for this, to lead people into buying NEU, without showing what they plan to do with it and they should show calculations about possible scenarios.

I don't say they have to explain it in this thread. And they don't have to explain it to me or those who are critical about it or even FUDders. But we'll see what's they will do...


My own opinion: I don't believe they started it with a definitely scam-intention. But I believe it's obvious that there is so much greed... It's totally obvious in it's mathematically/economic design and it's kind of paradox, but that's the main reason why it won't work out. They'll never be able to explain what they want to do with all the dust they stake out of nothing. The 63 Mio new Coins that were staked in the last 7 or 8 days... what to do with it? Sell them? Give it away for free? The price would be at 1 sat. Hold them? Why stake all the dust if they can't do anything with it without damaging the value? And we're talking here just about what they stake. It's really a mystery to me. I don't get it. And they sold this in an ICO and made about 4000 BTC out of it?

There are just two scenarios about the ICO:

1. The ICO was "legit"... really sold to the public. Than it's dishonest to sell something like this to that price
2. They bought into the ICO themselves... to bring the project to the market. Than it's dishonest because they're trying to sell an already failed project in combination with market-manipulation

I know what I believe...

I'm not sure about what you say/they say. The thing about it is: It could be right that the chance for one person with a small supply of Coins to reach 0.278% per day on average is very small.

But: We speak about a total supply of 3 billion Coins. That is announced as the initial total supply.

In this moment it is: 3,063,413,880

I don't know when exactly they began to stake. I believe it's one or two days before they went public. But it's easy to calculate:

63,413,880 new Coins = 2.1138%

They went live 7 days ago: http://forum.neucoin.org/t/neucoin-is-live-available-on-exchanges-by-friday/1584

We divide it by 7 = 0.302% per day
.................by 8 = 0.264% per day (if they started one day earlier)


And I believe they began one day before they went public, so the daily interest rate will be around that. And in the last hours it was nearly exact what I've said above: 0.278% (22 hours)


If one single person with a small amount won't reach it, but if that will be a constant staking-rate for the total, it's even worse. Because it means, that they have a higher staking rate in average with their billions of premine then the normal User with his 10k NEU.


We'll know that in a few weeks. Then we can calculate it very precise and I'm pretty sure that it'll be around 0.27% per day. And I believe that it's compound interest... and that the inflation per year will be much higher than """just""" 100%.

But either way, they don't know what to do with all the new coins they stake everyday. Because it's a fact that they staked more than 8 Mio new Coins in the last 24 hours if the Block-Explorer is right.

Oh STFU new2allthis2!

Dan has the million dollars and you are already losing money.  Not a scam?  You are in denial.

Did you not figure out math yet?  The fact that the name IS shit, they have committed blue sky violations, their entire structure is an enourmous tax fraud, we told the truth about all that here etc...and none of that contributed to this clusterfuck:  ...the price is crashing and will continue to 1 satochi because the math.

All of the illegal stuff just demonstrates their malice.  The math demonstrates that they never intended to make money for anyone but Dan.

They lost any right to respect the moment they answered my question "who is the director of the off-shore Seychelles company where you are asking everyone to send a million dollars worth of Bitcoin?"

Their answer, paraphrased, was:  "Fuck you and everybody else, we are not telling you who the director is because we are breaking so many laws in so many jurisdictions that we are keeping that a secret. Just send the bitcoins where we tell you to and don't worry about where it's going or who is in control of it, or get off our website and stop asking questions."

Hope you've dumped before you lose the rest of your pocket money.  You've already lost 100% of your dignity defending these inept thieves here and on Reddit new2allthis.  You have been defending a clownish fraud, and lost money while you were at it.

Crawl away now, be ashamed of yourself, and do math and due diligence instead of being impressed by a name list next time you open your cake trap.

I got this answer from NEUCOIN:

When staking amounts like 10000 NEU you'll have much less than one percent chance of minting coins each day. So you could go months without minting coins, and you're not going to get such a compounding advantage as your calculations. You'll also have a lot of uncertainty, if you're unlucky it could be years before you mint coins. The good thing about the growth accounts is you're guaranteed to get coins.

That said I don't like the way the growth accounts work. It would be much better without different time periods. So you could transfer in and out coins when you want, and get paid rewards on a regular bases. Maybe someone else will implement a more user friendly growth account this way.

Another calculation about the inflation/staking-interest.

The problem with it is, as far as I know, also: Staked (new) Coins of today will stake tomorrow. That would mean, if I'm right with that, that there isn't a linear increase. It's exponential --> Compound interest


We already can see how much they stake in 24 hours (in fact it's not even 24 hours):

September 29, 2015, 07:40:18 PM


Right now it's: September 30, 2015, 05:42 PM

And the total supply is: 3,063,373,575
http://www.neucoin.io/richlist


8,366,636 new Coins in 22 hours.

But, let's say it would be 24 hours.

It's 0.278% interest per day!


And if we calculate that with compound interest, we have to calculate:


"amount-after-one-year" = 3,000,000,000 * (1 + 0.278/100) ^365 = 8,263,964,732 NEU


Everybody can calculate it here:

http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

Standard Calculator
PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 3,000,000,000
PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 0.278
PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: 365 (years)
PRINCIPAL AMOUNT: yearly

It doesn't know Neucoin so we say Dollar, it doesn't know daily so we calculate it for 365 years. Makes no difference.

The result is the same I calculated above. And if I'm right with that, it's not just 100% in one year.

It's 175%!!!

So let's ask.

It will take 1.6 days to began coinage

This message doesn't mean that something is wrong on your end, it means that Neucoin haven't published any sync-checkpoint yet. You should also check if your wallet is unlocked for minting and you should be good.

Follow this thread for more info - http://forum.neucoin.org/t/warning-message-on-qt-wallet/1835

I guess they gave up as they got attacked so much - much of it was petty nonsense (NeuCon, NoCoin), some of it slightly offensive, some of it highly so. On the fist page the casual sexism kicked off "Sandrine is pretty" then Scam Confirmed et al signed up and pathologically began attacking every single element of it - its a pump and dump, its a scam project, the marketing is shit, the name is shit, its securities fraud, its tax fraud, the price is crashing - ha ha, the price is rising - they must be pumping the market...Someone with some time on their hands should go through and document all of the theories that have been shared on this thread.

Any of the NeuCoin team that posted on here seem to have been shouted down and or attacked - even when they were providing answers and so I guess now they don't bother.

Its a real shame, as I think in particular the inflationary question would be really interesting to hear their answers on....

Got a new warning at bottom corner of wallet No sync checkpoint received for quite along time yet there is a check mark showing it is syned, whats up with that now?

Funny guy:

http://forum.neucoin.org/t/professional-reasons-of-why-i-like-neucoin-team/1839

Yes, agree... The bad communication is a direct result of the bad design (huge premine, no distribution, incredibly high inflation etc). Because they can't be honest about that, they can't answer questions and give good arguments how that should work.

What I believe is this: They believed it would be enough and would lead into a hype to have "big names" behind it. They made a wiki and all looks kind of professional and official and with huge money backing... for some it looks like that what everybody is waiting for. And funny is: Some believe in it with the argument: Such big names, it's impossible that they're not know what they're doing. I think that's on what they counted... Something like a hype, growing out of itself.

But it's really laughable, because this could hype like nothing before and they wouldn't be able to handle their billion-supply they hold and the hundreds of millions they stake every month. It's mathematical-bullshit. Wouldn't be necessary to speak about anything else, if it's a planned scam or not. Doesn't matter, because that's the key point in my eyes and in any way this project has no chance and never had.

And like I said more than just once: I don't understand how it can be possible that people with some brain and a calculator develop a project like this with an economy as we see... Most of us here would develop a much better economic-strategy in 24 hours.

With other words: That this project is doomed is obvious and no mystery. The mystery for me is... how the hell is it possible that the team itself believed or even still believes (doubt that) in something like that?


Btw... yesterday I wrote:

September 29, 2015, 07:40:18 PM


Today (now) it's:  3,062,920,481


Plus 7,913,842 new Coins out of nothing in a few hours.

In BTC at the current price (0.000039) = 308,64 BTC ..........o u t o f n o t h i n g !!!



@Neucoin-Team:

1. How much new user would be needed to distribute those new coins through tips if you would like to give everybody 1000 NEU?

2. How much would just that new supply crash the price if these 7,913 new user would sell those Coins now on Bittrex and if you pull your own buywalls before?

3. How much new coins will be there in ten days if you just hold all what you stake....and stake it again and again?

Great! Adding:


Growth account:

vs

24/7 staking own device

means:

The wallet operator retains

- 24.5 % of a growth account user's 3 MONTH account stake

- 28.4 % of a growth account user's 12 MONTH account stake

- 38.7 % of a growth account user's 60 MONTH account stake


"Assuming ~ 85% of the total number of coins mine at any given time" (quoted from WhitePaper page 22)

--> GROWTH ACCOUNT USERS LOSE !!!

They already were doomed from the beginning.  Just a bad distribution design.  Too much inflation.  They were trying to make something secure but that's not the way to do it.  Also, too many lies, like the claims about their whitepaper (which they now seemed to have corrected).  They would have be better off with a fixed supply like NXT and being completely honest about everything.  They might have actually had a shot at some level of success.  But with all the lies, bad communication , and horrible inflation, they have almost zero chance to get traction, at least as far as people wanting to invest in the coin.  And that won't help them get companies to accept it since its almost a worthless token.  I still don't get why any company would adopt neucoin for their users instead of Bitcoin, unless they were being paid a lot of money to do it.

 

Interesting about this thread is: Here is much criticism. And in my opinion it's more than justified. BCT is also a place you have to be if you want bring a Crypto to success... Many Dev-teams don't like it, but if they are not active here, there'll be threads and talking about it anyway.

And they started this thread themselves, because they wanted to bang the drum for the project. The question is: Why doesn't they manage the communication? If I were a Dev or a Community-Manager I would see every question, all criticism as opportunity to make PR out of it because I only would stand behind a project if I would see good reasons and than I would have arguments. There wouldn't be (m)any questions I couldn't answer...

But it's obvious that they stay very calm. They don't answer all the questions. They also don't address all those questions into their official forum.

It's just a matter of time that one or two or three Neucoin-User will be more critical and/or asking some questions... and it will be interesting to see what the Neu-Team will do with that. If they answer it or delete it. Because it looks like they don't have good answers. ;-)

Wallet ONLINE:

A = 10000 NEU

3 MONTH -- 20 % = 12000 NEU
12 MONTH -- 100 % = 20000 NEU
60 MONTH -- 1600 % = 160000 NEU

Wallet on your own computer( POS )



3 MONTH --  12650 NEU
12 MONTH -- 23960 NEU
60 MONTH -- 254861 NEU !!!

Calculator Wallet on your own computer

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B88jybqGF86rdHVkeldCYTlHYVE/view?pli=1

Algorytm:

1MONTH

((A * 100%)/12month )+A = (10000 NEU/12month) + 10000 NEU = 833.33 NEU + 10000 NEU = 10833,33 NEU

New A = 10833,33

2MONTH

((A * 97,54%)/12month )+A = (10566,83 NEU/12month) + 10833,33 NEU = 880,56 NEU + 10833,33 NEU = 11713,89 NEU

New A = 11713,89 NEU

3MONTH

((A * 95,93%)/12month )+A = (11237,13 NEU/12month) + 11713,89 NEU = 936,42 NEU + 11713,89 NEU = 12650 NEU

New A = 12650 NEU

My TAG Adress: http://www.neucoin.io/address/NhhKb4sFVHj3kPNZAvNwHMZ8FF47Bakw3a    Morfeus

Corrected for 60 months.

The price is hard/impossible to predict. Reason is that I don't believe that's a normal market. Most likely it's highly manipulated and most likely they bought themselves the majority of the public ICO and I'm sure that they build the buy-walls. Wouldn't surprise me if they already hold 90% of the public ICO but I can't know that for sure.

What I want to say with that: They have control about the price and it's possible that they won't let it go down too low. It's even possible that they'll let it rise hoping, that a rising price will bring new and more people in. But everybody should know: That's an very old strategy and we saw that in hundreds of little Shitcoin-Scams. It's no mystery to double or quintuple a price if a Whale-Group holds the majority and has enough BTC.


That's a possible scenario in my eyes, because what's pretty sure: The project would die about the price... if it falls too low and they stake their millions every day, nobody will invest in this. Time is really not on their side. Because it won't be easier to explain to new Investors why they should invest if the distribution get's worse. And everybody who sees it the first time and looks into this:
http://www.neucoin.io/richlist

What will he see? A highly centralized supply and just a few addresses with relevant amount on it:

Top 10: own 96.71 % of the total supply
Top 100: own 99.8 % of the total supply

The next what a potential new Investor will recognize is the high staking rate... why should anybody buy 100k of this if they make that amount out of nothing through staking? Every fact is "off-putting".


But that's also the reason why this project is very interesting, because I'm really eager to see what they'll do with that... if they have something like a strategy and it will be visible. But with every scenario they'll have to face some problems.


Example:

They could make much PR and let the price rise at the same time. They could pay for articles, Jango could implement it (but I really doubt that any company would like to be associated with it) and as I said... lifting up volume and price.

What would be the result? Some who don't do any research would buy it. They would get some new Investors in. But: They have at least two serious problems. If they get more attention, they'll also get more attention of people who look deeper and explain what they're doing. As I said: It will be visible. Second problem: It won't be enough. And everytime they sell and distribute Coins, they lose a little bit control about it and they'll make loss with every trade if they have to stable the price in higher ranges.

The third problem, like I said: Time is not on their side, because distribution get's worse. With every day this project looks more bad.



And, what's also very interesting to me, but very speculative: They have some guys with money in it. They have some guys with a big name. And you can be sure they don't want to lose any money and they don't want to lose credibility. So, will the group behind this stay calm? Can they trust each other? Because if they're not united... they can't do much on the market. The one would fear the other. The one builds up buy-support and stabilize the price, the other could dump into it because he lost hope and just wants out.


And if you look on their list... 12 people in the core-team and with strategic-angeld-blablabla-Investors they're many more. I'm sure they are not united and that they are arguing and they don't have a strategy for the project.


There could be a strategy to get out:

They could buy as much they can in lower price-range and just let it down and vanish. That won't be a big problem for the public because the group could buy the majority of all Coins they don't already own. Nearly nobody would complain about it. But.. they would lose much credibility and most likely they won't have any future in Crypto. And it's possible that there are some bigger names who lost money and could hire a lawyer...


But, it's really speculative. What's not speculative in my eyes: This project has no future. It's designed to fail and maybe they believe that it could succeed if there would've been a hype right from the beginning with millions of users, but that's wrong. With millions of new Coins everyday and just 100 Mio on the free market at a price like now... there is absolutely no way. Everybody can calculate how fast they would've to grow to hold the value and give them the opportunity to distribute all that smoke.


And, just another little scenario and another reason why this will never survive: If there are just 100 Mio on the market, and even if there would be a great user-increase and demand so they could inflate the market without damage...  that it would be 200 Mio in 3 months and let's say 1 billion in a year, there would be always the risk that anybody from the core team would dump a large amount. There is no reason to trust a large group that doesn't show any professionality. Who knows if those wallets are really safe? If anybody would get control about the first wallet... he would have control about the whole project. It's so centralized like a central bank and worse, because of the inflation.



So... many words to line out what I believe what will happen. With just a few words: No chance, this will die soon.

^
Additionally the regime gets all the rewards in case someone cancels the growth account before the end of the time period.
It's not pro rata temporis as you would expect from every honest mining undertaking - it's Neucon, where the team earns and all others pay.