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Topic: [ANN] [POW] [XHV] Haven Protocol - untraceable payments x stable value storage - page 22. (Read 71438 times)

hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Good analysis.

Sketchy "stablecoins" are, at best, a stop gap product...
Also, a shitcoin with a 7 figure cap cannot be "stable"...
Looking at you KRB devs who are legit, but have taken the XHV nonsense to the next degree.

The Haven Protocol is like having a "big spec miner with very heavy bags and 150K Twitter followers in your back packet".

So, KRB are basically trying the same thing XHV does, am I getting that right?

You know, I could just move on and don't even care about XHVs doomed efforts, but I think this is extremely symptomatic for the current state of crypto and altcoins. It is not that I think they are malicious or scammers or something like that. I think they started of genuinely believing that they'd find a solution for the problems at hand eventually. And now they are so deep in it that they can't really turn around and basically say "yeah, it's probably not gonna work the way we thought it would", because they'd have a bunch of angry, tikitorches and pitforks swinging "investors" looking for them then.

But the fact of the matter is that not only doesn't the whole thing add up, I have yet to see or hear anything more than *crickets* regarding the issues. Like, if you apply a simple example, you'll find that XHV is way too dependent on certain conditions to actually do what it's supposed to.

Let me state here that I think XHVD can work quite well for some time, given the right market conditions. Which sctually makes the whole thing even worse, because these types of systems tend not to give warning signals or anything, they just at some point flat out will stop working and people will be holding the bag. This is not a XHV specific problem, but can be seen all over the industry. How else can a sane brain rationalize the steps needed to go from BTCs approach to EOS's 21 validators? It's people getting into the market who don't realized and/or understand what Bitcoin was created for, which is, by western standarts, an absolute edge case. We are not surrounded by fiat money crashing left, right and center and for most of us, the banking system and Paypal work quite well. Bitcoin(and other blockchain projects) is primarily not supposed to be a better Paypal (fuck you, Roger), it is a system that is more resilient against catastrophic failure. And catastrophic failure is not a daily occurence, which is why people forget that it's a possibility. I could point towards parallels between this line of thought and the thought process of anti-vaxxers, but I digress.

Let's look at a simple example:

Let's say, XHV spikes to a marketcap of 100,000,000$. At this pricepoint, 2,000,000$ worth of XHV is offshored and 2,000,000 worth of XHVD are created.

Now, the marketcap falls for whatever reason. Let's say, it drops to 10,000,000$. There is still sitting 2,000,000$ worth of XHVD offshore, but instead of being 2% of the XHV supply, they now represent 20%. If they would be onshored and XHV would be created, you'd have to deal with an instant inflation of 20%, add to that the fact that there is no way that the orderbooks on exchanges are as thick as they were at a marketcap of 100,000,000. So, there are 2,000,000$ worth of XHV going into the market, completely crashing the price.

A counter argument could be that miners could not allow these 2,000,000$ to be onshored. This would effectively mean that they are not unconditionally backed with XHV, so one XHVD will not be worth one dollar, even if XHVD can be traded as its own asset.

This creates another question: What exactly is the price of one XHV? Are you going with the spot price, or are you taking orderbook size into account? I guess this wouldn't work, because this would effectively mean that the more XHVD is onshored, the more XHV per XHVD needs to be created to allow the holder to cash out.

Some may say that this is not how rational human beings act, that no one i their right mind would onshore their XHVD, then immediately sell their XHV in a thin market, losing money. Well, but what if they have to, maybe thy got sick and need the money right now, or something like that? Not only that, this is absolutely against the core premise of money itself: that the owner can do whatever the fuck they want with it. If you tie the value of money to a set of conditions that need to be met, this will be priced in.

And this is something that is extremely dangerous when it comes to crypto in general: you can't count on the predictability of human behavior, especially in a scenario in which you have to count constantly on humans behaving rationally or predictably. Because it only needs one moment, one unexpected turn to screw this thing up big time. And at that point, you'll have a bunch of panicking holders running to the exit, either onshoring their XHVD to XHV, inflating the supply even more, or selling their XHVD at completely low, "desperate to get out" discounts.

All this is amplified by the fact that XHVD is XHVs main selling point. If no one uses this mechanism, it just another Monero clone with not much else to show for it. And if a lot of people use it, it just creates a ticking time bomb. You might not even need a big swing in marketcap to make this a problem; a significant amount of XHV being offshored and then being onshored again might do the trick all by its own.

Look, I'm trying hard not to come off as a hater or fudster or anything nad I probably spent way too much thought on this project. But in all honesty, too much of crypt reminds me of the underpants gnomes from South Park(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o) and this is, sadly, a prime example.
newbie
Activity: 237
Merit: 0

Transparent Haven pool with 24/7 support

Features:
- Mining to exchange
- Workers
- Adjustable instant payout levels
- Email and telegram notifications
- SSL

Contacts:
telegram EN : https://t.me/joinchat/B-GpfU1DYnzi5mhQ45I3rQ
telegram RU : https://t.me/joinchat/B-GpfUYWGEzx89L1N10Vzg
discord : https://discord.gg/VQYuE8t
legendary
Activity: 1588
Merit: 1000
XHV is one of the rare projects with a great team and things are developing and a great time! This morning I bought some XHV and I'll be doing it until the end of this month! Waiting for good things here. Haven applications will be very interesting and more interesting will be the market reaction, the Top 100 CMC will be a simple reality.

I think their heart is in the right place, but unless I missed something and the way they plan to implement their stable coin changed, there are some serious problems with their approach. I'm not even going back to the oracle problem again, which I still think is mostly unsolved (not only for XHV, but for any project).

Here is what I wonder and what hasn't really been explained well enough:

The main preimse is that if I "offshore", say, 500 XHV and when I want to "onshore" them and the XHV price halved, I get 1000 XHV back. To actually extract the value, I would need to market sell them, but this only works if there is enough liquidity. XHV is critically dependent on becoming a high marketcap, highly traded cryptocurrency, because if they are not, there is no way to onshore decently big funds without losing most of their value. And this means that one of their main premises, that users are able to safely store value without the risk of volatility simply doesn't work. I mean, if I offshore XHV, I am essentially taking a bet that XHV will stay relevant in the future. And, well, if I buy any coin, I am making the exact same bet.

I realize that they now have a two tokens approach, but I assume the way the stable tokens are backed hasn't changed. Which keeps all the issues they had before still intact.

As I said, maybe I missed something, so if I did, feel free to correct me. But don't gat back with the usual "team is working on it, no worries" nonsense.

Good analysis.

Sketchy "stablecoins" are, at best, a stop gap product...
Also, a shitcoin with a 7 figure cap cannot be "stable"...
Looking at you KRB devs who are legit, but have taken the XHV nonsense to the next degree.

The Haven Protocol is like having a "big spec miner with very heavy bags and 150K Twitter followers in your back packet".
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 583
xUSD - The PRIVATE stable coin - Haven Protocol
Announcing: Dether

The Dether app enables users to buy and sell ether for cash, exchange ether for a variety of ERC20 tokens, and exchange ERC20 tokens for ether. Through our partnership, both HAV and nUSD are available on the Dether app, and more currencies will continue to be added in the future. Please note that the ‘exchange’ function is not yet available for HAV or nUSD, but users can still currently transact with other individuals through the app.
https://blog.havven.io/announcing-dether-9f1db1e73942



XHV (Haven Protocol) is not HAV (Havven)
you are posting in the wrong topic
full member
Activity: 630
Merit: 103
TOKPIE
Announcing: Dether

The Dether app enables users to buy and sell ether for cash, exchange ether for a variety of ERC20 tokens, and exchange ERC20 tokens for ether. Through our partnership, both HAV and nUSD are available on the Dether app, and more currencies will continue to be added in the future. Please note that the ‘exchange’ function is not yet available for HAV or nUSD, but users can still currently transact with other individuals through the app.
https://blog.havven.io/announcing-dether-9f1db1e73942

hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 583
xUSD - The PRIVATE stable coin - Haven Protocol
Before the next bull start XHV needs to be on as many exchanges as possible to expect those prices which it had few months ago. It nee a fair strong bounce backed by huge liquidity to have 10x increase. At the moment single exchange is may be reason for this to see that adoption and spread of coins among large number of people.

agree completely with you
XHV first of all deserve to be on major exchanges so people can buy & hodl XHV from as many platforms possible

there are a lot of minor exchanges where we van vote like a strong community to get listed, but XHV need to be listed on one of the top 5 exchanges
sr. member
Activity: 854
Merit: 256
Before the next bull start XHV needs to be on as many exchanges as possible to expect those prices which it had few months ago. It nee a fair strong bounce backed by huge liquidity to have 10x increase. At the moment single exchange is may be reason for this to see that adoption and spread of coins among large number of people.
newbie
Activity: 90
Merit: 0
viable alternative to offshore accounts, boasting a feature within the offshore accounts that actually preserves the value of Haven Protocol coins at a fixed level of fiat currency. To clarify: They plan to achieve this through a burning and minting protocol for their coins, that burns the coins as they are deposited into the “offshore” account… and re-mints an equivalent value of coins as you attempt to withdraw your funds.

According to their whitepaper, that breaks down to mean: An account owner (we’ll call them A) deposits $200 worth of Haven into their “offshore account” on October 5th. XHV is worth $2.00/XHV on October 5th. So, A deposits 100 XHV. On April 5th, Owner A returns and desires to withdraw what funds were deposited into storage. On April 5th, XHV is worth $4.00/XHV. When Owner A receives back what they placed into storage, he receives 50 XHV which is now the equivalent to $200, the original fiat value of the deposited funds
newbie
Activity: 41
Merit: 0
The business team is working on their best work for the project, they want to improve the plan and so that the growing updates can be made to everyone. i think they are busy now busy with ico
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 359
👉MINING-BIOS.eu💲⛏
Most people do not know that XHV will be a great thing after XMR!
Who doesn't buy now, will cry later because the bear market is going away and things will get hot. Grin
I think $100 per XHV won't be absurd when it's possible to save my dollar values in XHVD.
Well maybe when XMR will have 10k USD  Cheesy Grin
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 583
xUSD - The PRIVATE stable coin - Haven Protocol
Most people do not know that XHV will be a great thing after XMR!
Who doesn't buy now, will cry later because the bear market is going away and things will get hot. Grin
I think $100 per XHV won't be absurd when it's possible to save my dollar values in XHVD.

100$ ?  Cheesy right
after the btc halving at 7,25 per block and btc hitting 100k$
before that, all alts cannot moon unfortunately
newbie
Activity: 237
Merit: 0

Transparent Haven pool with 24/7 support

Features:
- Mining to exchange
- Workers
- Adjustable instant payout levels
- Email and telegram notifications
- SSL

Contacts:
telegram : https://t.me/joinchat/B-GpfU1DYnzi5mhQ45I3rQ
discord : https://discord.gg/VQYuE8t
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1113
There's no need to be upset
does anybody ever had problems with withdraws from tradeogre?
mine is showing up slight smaller than it should be.
like 0.03 XHV less (I'm counting with the fees already)

I have lost one cent there when I was older and had a twitter account with 7 followers. I spread out unpleasant truth about the specifics of their business which had ramifications to my privileged rank here and among twitter users who knew what that move could cost me. To finalize, I took a hit from the legal team of theirs, such a bunch of knuckleheads.

I know it's a really small amount but
1) a small amount from all users become a fortune
2) XHV will be worth at least 10x the price that's now in a couple of years if they deliver, probably more.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Understandably, people spend a lot of time and effort around the idea, in some cases they can easily be disappointed with the small prize, buts as people said here, it's important that the business succeeds.
member
Activity: 189
Merit: 10
how can i solo mining? dont use pool, just on my computer
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1021
2009 Alea iacta est
hero member
Activity: 2147
Merit: 518
does anybody ever had problems with withdraws from tradeogre?
mine is showing up slight smaller than it should be.
like 0.03 XHV less (I'm counting with the fees already)

I have lost one cent there when I was older and had a twitter account with 7 followers. I spread out unpleasant truth about the specifics of their business which had ramifications to my privileged rank here and among twitter users who knew what that move could cost me. To finalize, I took a hit from the legal team of theirs, such a bunch of knuckleheads.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1113
There's no need to be upset
does anybody ever had problems with withdraws from tradeogre?
mine is showing up slight smaller than it should be.
like 0.03 XHV less (I'm counting with the fees already)
sr. member
Activity: 644
Merit: 250
Anonymous cryptocurrencies are truly trans-regional, secure COINS,
XHV is an untraceable cryptocurrency with standard market pricing and a stable store of legal value
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
XHV is one of the rare projects with a great team and things are developing and a great time! This morning I bought some XHV and I'll be doing it until the end of this month! Waiting for good things here. Haven applications will be very interesting and more interesting will be the market reaction, the Top 100 CMC will be a simple reality.

I realize that they now have a two tokens approach, but I assume the way the stable tokens are backed hasn't changed. Which keeps all the issues they had before still intact.

As I said, maybe I missed something, so if I did, feel free to correct me. But don't get back with the usual "team is working on it, no worries" nonsense.

They are addressing the hardest problems in crypto with juvenile solutions...
The whole things is based on circular logic a college freshman would spot in 30 seconds...
Just apply semi-extreme scenarios to their "ideas" and you get KABOOM..
But, somehow, they've got big time spec miners Twitter shilling... it makes you wonder about the education system.

"Working on it" = bolting shit on to a mathematically unsound solution does not improve it...
Frankly, I don't think Maker is much better... there IS a better approach to stability staring people in the face.


Yes, the math doesn't make sense at all. "If the price goes down, we simply produce more tokens." I mean... What?

It's sad to see that this isn't addressed more here.

I don't know, I have the feeling that the whole forum is kinda going to shit. Back when I started in 2016, there were endless technical discussions. Now, you have 3 bot posts, one guy asking how much collateral you need for a masternode, another when the ICO is and the rest is mining pool advertisements.

I don't like Slack, Telegram and Discord. I think for a meaningful conversation, they are too noisy. That' what forums should be for...

I haven't looked too much into Maker. Isn't the idea that they are heavily overcollateralized or something? I mean, I somewhat agree with you and honestly, I fing the idea of a stablecoin completely overrated. Get to mass adoption and it shouldn't be a problem anymore.
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