[ANN] Tangible Cryptography suspends Bitcoin related transaction. - page 3.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3052

Merit: 1031

RIP Mommy

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: TheButterZone on June 20, 2013, 06:50:12 PM

Quote from: Entropy-uc on June 20, 2013, 06:26:43 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on June 20, 2013, 06:20:54 PM

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is. There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation. And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

I simply cannot see how it's possible to conform to 100% of regulations and laws in good faith (that means NEVER paying legal or illegal bribes). http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

If "successful" is defined as "merely hasn't been targeted by arbitrary, capricious, or malicious actors YET", then sure, there are "plenty of successful businesses". Such luck, or whatever you want to call it, is not equal to immunity.

Immunity is gained by having the resources to lawyer up and fight.

Welcome to the American dream.

Or nightmare, if you beg, borrow, and steal to get a lawyer, and evil still wins, as it almost always does.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3052

Merit: 1031

RIP Mommy

Quote from: Entropy-uc on June 20, 2013, 06:26:43 PM

Quote from: TheButterZone on June 20, 2013, 06:20:54 PM

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is. There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation. And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

I simply cannot see how it's possible to conform to 100% of regulations and laws in good faith (that means NEVER paying legal or illegal bribes). http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

If "successful" is defined as "merely hasn't been targeted by arbitrary, capricious, or malicious actors YET", then sure, there are "plenty of successful businesses". Such luck, or whatever you want to call it, is not equal to immunity.

Matthew N. Wright

hero member

Activity: 588

Merit: 500

Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet

Quote from: Entropy-uc on June 20, 2013, 06:26:43 PM

any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

That could also have been argued about Apple's iTunes store and look how that turned out.

Entropy-uc

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 501

Quote from: TheButterZone on June 20, 2013, 06:20:54 PM

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

There are plenty of successful businesses operating on the open side of the web.

That many users continue to tolerate failures like Mt.Gox is just a sign of how immature the market still is. There will be many successful ventures that fully conform to regulation. And any business restricting itself to operation on the darknet is limiting itself to an extremely small segment of the user base.

TheButterZone

legendary

Activity: 3052

Merit: 1031

RIP Mommy

Equally good luck running any bitcoin services in the lightnet. We can all see how little luck and sliding down slippery slopes to oblivion that system has, on a monthly, if not weekly basis.

BCB

vip

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1002

BCJ

Quote from: justusranvier on June 20, 2013, 05:52:11 PM

It took forever to dig up this post, and I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering having written it:

Quote from: justusranvier on October 06, 2012, 10:57:19 AM

Future Bitcoin services need to be run as if they are illegal enterprises, like Silk Road, even if what they are doing is apparently legal.

Why:

Laws change.
Regulations are vague and open-ended, and it's probably impossible to operate a business without accidentally violating one.
Even if you do manage to operate without violating any rule law enforcement agencies do not always limit themselves to the letter of the law when deciding to begin an enforcement action.
Governments are not the only threats to a successful business. Non-governmental organized crime is almost equally capable of extortion.

The solution is to run all services in the darknet, not tied to any physical location or legal jurisdiction, and without any explicit connection to a real-life identity.

I don't mean to be a dick but good luck with that justusranvier.

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1009

It took forever to dig up this post, and I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering having written it:

Quote from: justusranvier on October 06, 2012, 10:57:19 AM

Future Bitcoin services need to be run as if they are illegal enterprises, like Silk Road, even if what they are doing is apparently legal.

Why:

Laws change.
Regulations are vague and open-ended, and it's probably impossible to operate a business without accidentally violating one.
Even if you do manage to operate without violating any rule law enforcement agencies do not always limit themselves to the letter of the law when deciding to begin an enforcement action.
Governments are not the only threats to a successful business. Non-governmental organized crime is almost equally capable of extortion.

The solution is to run all services in the darknet, not tied to any physical location or legal jurisdiction, and without any explicit connection to a real-life identity.

Lohoris

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Bitgoblin

Quote from: BCB on June 20, 2013, 04:16:53 PM

Sure. But maybe we should start another thread. I think we've hijacked TC's enough.

Ok but link it here please.

BCB

vip

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1002

BCJ

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on June 20, 2013, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: BCB on June 20, 2013, 02:14:34 PM

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

I know nothing of that business other than what I've read in the referenced thread, but it appears to me that they are providing a listing and escrow service only and not handling or transferring any U.S. dollars. I've also researched this issue quite heavily and I don't see how that activity fits into any of the definitions of "money transmitter" enumerated in the FinCen guidance.

Would you mind sharing which part of the guidance / regulations you believe apply to this service?

Sure. But maybe we should start another thread. I think we've hijacked TC's enough.

Pale Phoenix

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 250

Quote from: BCB on June 20, 2013, 02:14:34 PM

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

I know nothing of that business other than what I've read in the referenced thread, but it appears to me that they are providing a listing and escrow service only and not handling or transferring any U.S. dollars. I've also researched this issue quite heavily and I don't see how that activity fits into any of the definitions of "money transmitter" enumerated in the FinCen guidance.

Would you mind sharing which part of the guidance / regulations you believe apply to this service?

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1009

Quote from: BCB on June 20, 2013, 02:14:34 PM

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

That's how we know they are doing something worthwhile.

BCB

vip

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1002

BCJ

justusranvier

Unfortunately this is the regulatory landscape in which we find ourselves today.

And the business in the link you provided is, in my opinion, and according to my research and the attorneys, Money Transmitter Professionals and Anti-Money Laundering Compliance professionals I've spoken with is operating illegally and runs the risk not only of being shut down but also of criminal prosecution.

But then we are all free to make choices.

PS

You should read the story of E-Gold. It is easy to make baseless claims and anonymously thump your chest at the government on an internet form and ignore regulation and your responsibilities as a money service business. You should ask Douglas Jackson how that worked out for him.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/e-gold/

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1009

Quote from: BCB on June 20, 2013, 01:39:57 PM

That is why we need collective action to begin bitcoin advocacy or to form a self regulating with Bitcoin and Financial industry professionals to interface with regulators and legislators to educate them about the benefits of the protocol.

Negotiating with gangsters has a long history of counterproductive results.

It's more productive in the long run to bypass and out-innovate the regulators instead of getting stuck in the tarpit of working with them.

BCB

vip

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1002

BCJ

That is why we need collective action to begin bitcoin advocacy or to form a self regulating with Bitcoin and Financial industry professionals to interface with regulators and legislators to educate them about the benefits of the protocol. I think there was hope that this was what the bitcoin foundation would be working on. But there seems to be many varying opinions about the foundation and its efforts here on this forum.

Our company has decided to move forward proactively in this area in our own business interest and in the interest of all bitcoiner and bitcoin businesses. If you are interested in joining us please PM me to get involved.

Thanks.

Aseras

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

I doubt TC has the pocketbook to fight the state. Fighting corporations or debt is one thing. Fighting the people who can make the rules and change them on a whim is something else entirely.

Lohoris

hero member

Activity: 630

Merit: 500

Bitgoblin

Quote from: opentoe on June 19, 2013, 08:31:45 PM

TC, why don't you lawyer up yourselves to keep in business while the politicians figure things out? I remember when Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy many years ago he was still buying planes, homes, and expensive items. It basically boils down to how good your attorney's are. If your attorney's can't keep you in business while waiting for a decision which could take years you need new counsel.

+1

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3388

Merit: 4615

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on June 19, 2013, 09:30:51 PM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on June 19, 2013, 07:38:34 PM

Have you given any consideration to resuming offering escrow services temporarily until you get a formal response from the commission?

Regardless of the decision, Tangible Cryptography, LLC won't be offering escrow in the future. Too high risk, too low profit (competing with 0% fee operators), and too manpower intensive. If you need a trusted escrow agent I would recommend John K. He is the only one I trust enough to use personally.

Understood.

I'm one of those 0% fee (gratuity appreciated) operators. Unfortunately, when I need escrow, John K. is the only current provider that I trust enough to use personally in most cases. I'm typically happy to pay his 1.5% fee, but he isn't always available on short notice, especially during the timeframe that local banks are open (due to his geographical location).

Anyhow, if you change you mind, I'd be happy to pay between 1% and 2% for escrow services from someone as trusted as yourself.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: DannyHamilton on June 19, 2013, 07:38:34 PM

Have you given any consideration to resuming offering escrow services temporarily until you get a formal response from the commission?

Regardless of the decision, Tangible Cryptography, LLC won't be offering escrow in the future. Too high risk, too low profit (competing with 0% fee operators), and too manpower intensive. If you need a trusted escrow agent I would recommend John K. He is the only one I trust enough to use personally.

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3388

Merit: 4615

Quote from: BCB on June 19, 2013, 07:49:56 PM

Escrow (unless you are an attorney) is money transmission also.

Only if you are holding the U.S. cash as escrow.

opentoe

legendary

Activity: 1274

Merit: 1000

Personal text my ass....

Quote from: TangibleCryptography on June 14, 2013, 11:29:17 AM

Quote from: Unacceptable on June 13, 2013, 03:30:15 PM

Any news guys ?? Hope your back online soon Wink

Best of Luck!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: MSantori on June 13, 2013, 04:07:45 PM

I am also interested to hear the latest, if only out of professional curiosity.

We do not have a formal response from the commission at this time. It is unlikely any updates will be provided until we have a formal response either indicating that our activity does not require a license or that we must obtain a license.

Because there is an 80 year old guy asking his assistant, "hey dear, what are bitcoins?". You may never receive an answer.

TC, why don't you lawyer up yourselves to keep in business while the politicians figure things out? I remember when Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy many years ago he was still buying planes, homes, and expensive items. It basically boils down to how good your attorney's are. If your attorney's can't keep you in business while waiting for a decision which could take years you need new counsel.

Topic: [ANN] Tangible Cryptography suspends Bitcoin related transaction. - page 3. (Read 66745 times)