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Topic: [ANN][BURST] Burst | Efficient HDD Mining | New 1.2.3 Fork block 92000 - page 350. (Read 2170648 times)

hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....



Nice!  Any chance there is a live version of that graph?

That's what i was making....just sent it here to check that no one thought it was way off....

I'll update https://block.burstcoin.info with it in a few minutes....just need to get a couple things done...

Looks good. In FF the color explanation is just over the text Burst price by exchanges.
The difference is hard to see, maybe an offset of 100 would show it better.

Good to see that bobafett is at rank 4. Good job!!!
How small is ur screen? (res)

There we go....done
https://block.burstcoin.info

...and one of the charts are stuffed up....lets fix that....
hero member
Activity: 785
Merit: 500
BURST got Smart Contracts (AT)
two times 1920x1080 side on side ;-)
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....



Nice!  Any chance there is a live version of that graph?

That's what i was making....just sent it here to check that no one thought it was way off....

I'll update https://block.burstcoin.info with it in a few minutes....just need to get a couple things done...

Looks good. In FF the color explanation is just over the text Burst price by exchanges.
The difference is hard to see, maybe an offset of 100 would show it better.

Good to see that bobafett is at rank 4. Good job!!!
How small is ur screen? (res)
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 503
A different question:

Would some of you Burst-people mind to explain in my thread, how energy-saving your technology proof of capacity (POC) mining is? I would like someone to compare it to POS and POW:

"Which is the most environmentally friendly, energy-efficient altcoin?":
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/which-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-energy-efficient-altcoin-982957

For good estimation, we would need a good calculation, of course, and for proof we would need some measurements and extrapolation...

But maybe we could get an idea.

Thank you.

Proof of Capacity energy usage compared to Proof of Stake

You still need a computer and hard drive running to power Proof of Stake... but let's say that you do add 50 3TB drives to that computer, you could split your plots up across all of these of hard drives, and the only turn on two hard drives at a time per block.  With POC2.. you'll only need to turn on 1 hard drives, one that stores signatures, one that stores the current scoop being read.

Otherwise, it'd consume 50 * 10 Watts per hard drive.  So this equals 500 Watts = 0.5 kW

1 kW*hr costs 12 cents.  Meaning 0.5 kWhr costs 0.5 * $0.12 = $0.06/hr  

$0.06/hr * 24 hr/day * 365 days/yr = $500 of electricity per year

In my mind, eventually a device that starts switching drives off and on in my mind could be POC's version of an ASIC. This could bring the power usage down to about 12W total since you'd still have 1 hard drive running continually, plus the device would use some tiny amount of power.

Point being, there is definitely financial incentive to create such a device, which would definitely sell to POC mining farms, and once this type of device for connecting these hard drives to the network is being made, I suspect it'll pretty widely used for plugging in a variable number of drives.

Back to how much energy POC uses vs POS, and assume an average computer uses 300 Watts, POC uses 500 extra Watts that means that POC uses 800 Watts.

800 W / 300W = approx 2.7 as much energy as POS.  So it's reasonable.

In other words POC2 uses 270% more energy than Proof of Stake.


Proof of Capacity energy usage compared to Proof of Work

Assume you go with the above assumption that you connect 50  hard drives to the computer, and each hard drive costs $100 each.  That means $5000 worth of hard drives which uses 800 W.  Now let's pick a random Bitcoin miner.  The TerraMiner IV which to err on Bitcoin's side, let's say it costs $1,000 USD (I can find it on Amazon for $750 - http://www.amazon.com/CoinTerra-Terraminer-Iv/dp/B00JK64DXA but the original price was $1,200) and uses 2.1kW .

So $5000 worth of bitcoin miners = $5000 / $1,000 = 5 machines.  
5 machines equals 5* 2.1KW worth of energy = 10.5 kW.

So POW uses 10.5 kW of electricity for an equivalent investment POC uses .8 kW of electricity.


10.5/0.8 KW = 13.13 times

Which means that POW uses 13.13 more energy than POC.

The plus sides and reasons why POC beats POS though that POC is more decentralized, ASIC proof meaning even the little guy can mine, and more secure than POS, etc.  And no history key attack potential plus mining is a great way to get new people into crypto currency.  You can mine POC with no money spent buying coins first..  once we're doing 100s or 1000s of transactions, it'll be profitable for every day people to connect their extra hard drive space to the Burst network and join the network.  Once they have free coins, they are more likely to be long term adopters.

And if you need proof regarding the last point that getting miners to join the network will be easier.. go look at Burst's estimated network size:
http://burstcoin.eu/charts/estimated-network-size

It's barely profitable to mine because people are willing to contribute hard drive space toward earning 'free' coins.. meaning this will be a great way to get people interested in Proof of Capacity currencies in the future because they are ASIC proof.

Would like some feedback then I'll go post this over in that thread.


Went through and edited the numbers, better?
hero member
Activity: 785
Merit: 500
BURST got Smart Contracts (AT)
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....



Nice!  Any chance there is a live version of that graph?

That's what i was making....just sent it here to check that no one thought it was way off....

I'll update https://block.burstcoin.info with it in a few minutes....just need to get a couple things done...

Looks good. In FF the color explanation is just over the text Burst price by exchanges.
The difference is hard to see, maybe an offset of 100 would show it better.

Good to see that bobafett is at rank 4. Good job!!!
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....



Nice!  Any chance there is a live version of that graph?

That's what i was making....just sent it here to check that no one thought it was way off....

I'll update https://block.burstcoin.info with it in a few minutes....just need to get a couple things done...
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Is there anyone in here that would be willing to 'authenticate' that I own the address BURST-SDHJ-Z6DP-YEWT-G47AZ?

I can send a message or a bit of burst to someone. I'm currently trying to get my old account back which was hacked and someone needs to vouch that I own the above address as the people I'm talking to refuse to download a Burst wallet.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/account-stolen-bensam123-991008

As long as you send a message unencrypted the message will be viewable on the block explorer at burstcoin.eu. send the message anywhere and link them to that transaction on that block explorer

It is a good idea without someone to download a burst wallet... Anyway, I have help you to 'authenticate' your address ownership at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/account-stolen-bensam123-991008. Hope you will get back your account soon  Wink

Did you learn from the lesson? This lesson tells you that whichever altcoin you like, you must have bitcoin, especially in bitcointalk.org... LOL  Grin
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 503
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....



Nice!  Any chance there is a live version of that graph?
hero member
Activity: 785
Merit: 500
BURST got Smart Contracts (AT)
...
try the webwallet from www.burstcoin.de


API   burstcoin.de:8125  ?

https://burstwallet.for-better.biz:8125

had to put it on a different server, because burstcoin.de is hostet by a to small package.

Who is:
Marco Feindler
michael martin GmbH & Co.KG

Can we trust them?

That is bobafett

Ok, I trust him ;-)

I get "You have not typed the passphrase correctly, please try again!"  Huh?
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
...
try the webwallet from www.burstcoin.de


API   burstcoin.de:8125  ?

https://burstwallet.for-better.biz:8125

had to put it on a different server, because burstcoin.de is hostet by a to small package.

Who is:
Marco Feindler
michael martin GmbH & Co.KG

Can we trust them?

That is bobafett
hero member
Activity: 785
Merit: 500
BURST got Smart Contracts (AT)
...
try the webwallet from www.burstcoin.de


API   burstcoin.de:8125  ?

https://burstwallet.for-better.biz:8125

had to put it on a different server, because burstcoin.de is hostet by a to small package.

Who is:
Marco Feindler
michael martin GmbH & Co.KG

Can we trust them?
hero member
Activity: 785
Merit: 500
BURST got Smart Contracts (AT)
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
just a short question: does the latest dcct optimizer under linux optimize the plots in chunks? or do I need at least free space of 1 x plot file? I wasn't thinking bout that before I started plotting another hdd, and now it'S pretty much full Cheesy

My latest optimizer needs at least space for 1 extra plot file. In theory its possible to optimize in place, but I dont think such an optimizer exists yet.
legendary
Activity: 914
Merit: 1001
just a short question: does the latest dcct optimizer under linux optimize the plots in chunks? or do I need at least free space of 1 x plot file? I wasn't thinking bout that before I started plotting another hdd, and now it'S pretty much full Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Is there anyone in here that would be willing to 'authenticate' that I own the address BURST-SDHJ-Z6DP-YEWT-G47AZ?

I can send a message or a bit of burst to someone. I'm currently trying to get my old account back which was hacked and someone needs to vouch that I own the above address as the people I'm talking to refuse to download a Burst wallet.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/account-stolen-bensam123-991008

As long as you send a message unencrypted the message will be viewable on the block explorer at burstcoin.eu. send the message anywhere and link them to that transaction on that block explorer
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1024
Is there anyone in here that would be willing to 'authenticate' that I own the address BURST-SDHJ-Z6DP-YEWT-G47AZ?

I can send a message or a bit of burst to someone. I'm currently trying to get my old account back which was hacked and someone needs to vouch that I own the above address as the people I'm talking to refuse to download a Burst wallet.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/account-stolen-bensam123-991008
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Dunno if this is right...but i think this is the blocks mined distribution for the past 2520 blocks.....

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
the only way to "play" with the blockchain is to ddos the miner wallets by massive nonce submission to the blockchain.
the result of this may be that many mining wallets simply freeze up and the tb mining with it wont get fresh blocks.
i am not aware how the automatic ddos protection works and how fast bad ips would get blacklisted.
this attack vector may have happened before (sorry i cannot proof) because after not finding a block for several hours i directly found blocks as usual after a wallet restart and fresh peers. i have'nt traced this down to its origin but the watched effect looked suspicious.
lately the diff went too high to see this effect directly anymore so i stoped a further investigation.

If you receive 1 invalid block from a peer you ip ban them for 10 minutes. You'd need a massive number of ips to attempt an attack like that.
sr. member
Activity: 256
Merit: 250
A different question:

Would some of you Burst-people mind to explain in my thread, how energy-saving your technology proof of capacity (POC) mining is? I would like someone to compare it to POS and POW:

"Which is the most environmentally friendly, energy-efficient altcoin?":
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/which-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-energy-efficient-altcoin-982957

For good estimation, we would need a good calculation, of course, and for proof we would need some measurements and extrapolation...

But maybe we could get an idea.

Thank you.

Proof of Capacity energy usage compared to Proof of Stake

You still need a computer and hard drive running to power Proof of Stake... but let's say that you do add 4096 drives to that computer, you could split your plots up across thousands of hard drives, and the only turn on two hard drives at a time per block.  With POC2.. you'll only need to turn on 1 hard drives, one that stores signatures, one that stores the current scoop being read.

And you turn two on for two seconds per 4 minute block(granted, I expect we'll lower block times sooner or later.). So a hard drive would normally consume 10 Watts but we can say it only consumes 2/4*60th of this since it's only on for 2 seconds per 4 minutes.  So this means that it basically consumes 0.83 % of the amount of energy as one hard drive.  Or 0.0167 Watts extra for two drives.  Let's assume there is other over head or you are keeping them on longer or something.. and let's say that all these drives use 1 W to run.  


Ahahah 1 hdd of 4096... And reading speed will beeee....ZERO?  Tongue
Anyway hdd in sleep mode taking much amount of power, plus time to wake up is about 10 sec.

I figured you could totally turn it off right? Though you are probably right about wake up time... let me multiply by 10.  Keep in mind Google did a study that shows that it does not significantly increase the wear and tear of a drive to turn it off and on regularly. An let's face it you are only turning it on and off a few times a day, even if you reduce the number of drives plugged in to 100 or so drives.
You can't totally disable drive while it's power plugged(you need to disconnect drive physically from power for that, turn off +12V), so drive will be in sleep mode consuming power.
If you gonna have only 1 drive of 4096 to read, it's reading speed will be about 180mb/s, so it would take about 6-12 HOURS to read full 4tb drive)

Good point about read speed.. Let me re-write that assuming less drives tonight. However, keep in mind that w that POC2 could use significantly smaller sections of the drive.. Which would at least help this issue. But yeah that's definitely an issue with my calculation.

Regarding turning off hard drives, remember I'm assuming a device made specifically for this purpose. Of course I'm not factoring in any energy usage for this device.. Maybe I should add 10 W.

Thanks for feedback!!

My theory is, that some people out there, with a rather large farm, use a custom miner that will assume that the deadline will win and scan for the next block. This allows them to announce low deadline immediately after their previous deadline was accepted.
i like your theory   Smiley

so... can they make some sort of blocktime attack?) (cause we don't need to find block immediatelly(like standard PoW), so can they do it in a row?

we need new miner, which can premine next block  Cheesy

It could but since it would be building off of it's own old block, the new deadline wouldn't start ticking down the seconds until the old deadline came about.

In fact, I wonder if it would make sense for miners to announce to the rest of the network that they have found that next deadline in advance before just sending out the block to maximize the time the network has to future blocks. If this miner then decided not to author the block then the network has to choose another miner.

This is sort of similar to the idea of the Nothing at stake issue... need to think more but in fact that preannouncing if done right might help prevent that from even theoretically becoming an issue.

you can only announce a nonce for a account id. all wallets then verify the received nonce by calculating the deadline for it.
the only way to "play" with the blockchain is to ddos the miner wallets by massive nonce submission to the blockchain.
the result of this may be that many mining wallets simply freeze up and the tb mining with it wont get fresh blocks.
i am not aware how the automatic ddos protection works and how fast bad ips would get blacklisted.
this attack vector may have happened before (sorry i cannot proof) because after not finding a block for several hours i directly found blocks as usual after a wallet restart and fresh peers. i have'nt traced this down to its origin but the watched effect looked suspicious.
lately the diff went too high to see this effect directly anymore so i stoped a further investigation.

to be able to premine blocks you require to know the blockheight and the resulting gensig of the winner.
simply said the gensig is based on who found the block combined with the height. therefore there is no way to optimize stored plots for certain gensigs because they alter even for the same miner for a different blockheight.
the only statistically based optimization i could imagine would be to only store nonces which do not contain all scoops.
statistically if you would store nonces containing only 12 scoops your plots may be used for 1 block a day (statistically).
for this one block a day each tb plotted this way equals 360tb. the tricky part starts when you think of load distribution. but maybe this attempt may be used for vps approaches or third generation pools.  


 
  
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 503
A different question:

Would some of you Burst-people mind to explain in my thread, how energy-saving your technology proof of capacity (POC) mining is? I would like someone to compare it to POS and POW:

"Which is the most environmentally friendly, energy-efficient altcoin?":
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/which-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-energy-efficient-altcoin-982957

For good estimation, we would need a good calculation, of course, and for proof we would need some measurements and extrapolation...

But maybe we could get an idea.

Thank you.

Proof of Capacity energy usage compared to Proof of Stake

You still need a computer and hard drive running to power Proof of Stake... but let's say that you do add 4096 drives to that computer, you could split your plots up across thousands of hard drives, and the only turn on two hard drives at a time per block.  With POC2.. you'll only need to turn on 1 hard drives, one that stores signatures, one that stores the current scoop being read.

And you turn two on for two seconds per 4 minute block(granted, I expect we'll lower block times sooner or later.). So a hard drive would normally consume 10 Watts but we can say it only consumes 2/4*60th of this since it's only on for 2 seconds per 4 minutes.  So this means that it basically consumes 0.83 % of the amount of energy as one hard drive.  Or 0.0167 Watts extra for two drives.  Let's assume there is other over head or you are keeping them on longer or something.. and let's say that all these drives use 1 W to run.  


Ahahah 1 hdd of 4096... And reading speed will beeee....ZERO?  Tongue
Anyway hdd in sleep mode taking much amount of power, plus time to wake up is about 10 sec.

I figured you could totally turn it off right? Though you are probably right about wake up time... let me multiply by 10.  Keep in mind Google did a study that shows that it does not significantly increase the wear and tear of a drive to turn it off and on regularly. An let's face it you are only turning it on and off a few times a day, even if you reduce the number of drives plugged in to 100 or so drives.
You can't totally disable drive while it's power plugged(you need to disconnect drive physically from power for that, turn off +12V), so drive will be in sleep mode consuming power.
If you gonna have only 1 drive of 4096 to read, it's reading speed will be about 180mb/s, so it would take about 6-12 HOURS to read full 4tb drive)

Good point about read speed.. Let me re-write that assuming less drives tonight. However, keep in mind that w that POC2 could use significantly smaller sections of the drive.. Which would at least help this issue. But yeah that's definitely an issue with my calculation.

Regarding turning off hard drives, remember I'm assuming a device made specifically for this purpose. Of course I'm not factoring in any energy usage for this device.. Maybe I should add 10 W.

Thanks for feedback!!

My theory is, that some people out there, with a rather large farm, use a custom miner that will assume that the deadline will win and scan for the next block. This allows them to announce low deadline immediately after their previous deadline was accepted.
i like your theory   Smiley

so... can they make some sort of blocktime attack?) (cause we don't need to find block immediatelly(like standard PoW), so can they do it in a row?

we need new miner, which can premine next block  Cheesy

It could but since it would be building off of it's own old block, the new deadline wouldn't start ticking down the seconds until the old deadline came about.

In fact, I wonder if it would make sense for miners to announce to the rest of the network that they have found that next deadline in advance before just sending out the block to maximize the time the network has to future blocks. If this miner then decided not to author the block then the network has to choose another miner.

This is sort of similar to the idea of the Nothing at stake issue... need to think more but in fact that preannouncing if done right might help prevent that from even theoretically becoming an issue.
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