Topic: [ANN][KARM] Karma / ₭ / X11 - page 164. (Read 583119 times)

Wright, wright.   I`ve said it because they know far more than us and they are smarter than us. But they are still 12.  

Hallelujah, because this is the most important problem to the crypto world, in my opinion.
I myself, dont know the first thing about what happens in a computer what an algorythm of ancoin does how to mine it or all the shortcuts you people use. The jargon on most fora and websites about what a coin has mean nothing to me. I want to learn myself things so i look up what it means i ask it etc. But you have to make everything easy, if i tell my girlfriend to buy karma ornto use it to participate in the karmashares llc, she would lose her interest after 5 seconds. Make karma interesting to noobs, because there is a finite number of people with your knowledge but there is a seemless infinite number of noobs like my girlfriend.

Secondly, you people have great ideas for a new setup for the profits and membership for the llc, but to make it interesting we need a steady profit generation.
What i like is a Karma casino, i know there are some casino games for coins, but i mean a casino taken to the next generation. First, is it legal to open a casino if the funds are karmacoin? As anyone says, cryptocurrencies are no valuta but a comodaty so in my eyes it is legal to do whatever you want in a cryptocoin casino?

The casino would work as followed, we start with a roulette because this is the casinogame where most people take risks, 1/37 chance to win when betting on a number. I as a computer noob think its easy to generate to code something like a roulette, 37 numbers, 3 colors, red black and green, even odd, 1/18 19/36 etc. When i see what you people can code it should be a piece of cake to write a code that generate 37 random numbers.
People can buy in using karma and they receive points for every 10000karma, so 10.000 karma is displayed as 1 point. The effect of using point is people start forgetting the value of it, it is easier to bet 10 points than 100.000 karma. The perfect return to player is around 97%. Assume 100 million karma is used every day (about 400$ which is not much) this would generate 3 million karma for the llc eveyday. This amount can just be sold on the market because if one wants to play casino they have to buy Karma so in a perfect world the price would just stay the same.

What do you think about this? It has to be a nice friendly, userfriendly casino. Pretty colors, not much nonsense, no waiting times for every round because once the coins are deposited you can play till you run out of money. My example would generate about 120-150 dollars every month, just for one casino game and assuming the return to player is absolutely perfect. But in practice the return to player is not perfect, the people who achieve the return to player percentage are the ones that play with very small money. If you have 1 person betting 100 points on a wrong number the return to player is directly lower for that month. If this income overtime gets to 1000$ a month we are really talking numbers.

Ofcourse, because its karma, a percentage will be given to charity

I agree with all you`ve said. This is why I am proposing 10 members with 3/4 majority. This will guarantee that no one with reading rights will offend Karma team member. Keep in mind that I am suggesting only Karmashares members and eligible according to my new PoC model people to be able to read sensitive information which is making people to go crazy. Of course if someone is willing to curse here on bitcointalk, then I have no idea what to do. There are medical specialists for such behavior. Good they don`t know about me.

not sarcasm.. if you want 12 year olds to use Karma then it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand ... 

it is a technical problem which can be solved with the blockchain and the right algorithm.

there are already PoS coins that use coin age to determine staking.
most of the work has already been done in that regard.

the only difference is that instead of using coin age to determine who can generate new coins you are using coin age to determine who gets a cut of profits.

its a very trivial technical distinction.

I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but I fell of the chair. You`ve made my day. rofl.

sure if the Karmashares members vote on any penalty system then it can be implemented.

personally though I am all for freedom of speech just as I am all for peoples right to use Karma for whatever they want.. just as long as it is sticking to the general theme and doing some kind of good.

i don't believe that people should be penalized for disagreeing with another member, but obviously if they are causing damage to the reputation of Karmashares then the members would and should have some method for dealing with it.

I respect the rights of Karmashares or any other company from doing business in the karma economy any way they see fit and making up any rules they want for their own business. if they want to decide who gets paid and who doesn't from their own money then that's completely fine by me.

I only speak out when people try to tamper with the Karma itself without providing a valid technical reason for doing so.

if you said to me something like "we will confiscate coins from people who insult Karmashares members" then I would get very vocal lolz.

On a second thought - what happens if coin holders are less than shareholders and their points are far less then share holders - how can we determine exact percentage? Two many variables. I will stick to my initial proposal.
But paying in Karma to coin holders is really good idea.

I agree it has to be easy enough for a 12 year old to understand with clearly written rules and instructions and nice pretty pictures to show you where you are on the list.

About this: "we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts."

As far as I have read and managed to understand several days ago, this is true. This is how I came up with the penalty model. Check it out - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8650705

Again, this is not about to have or not to have PoC model. It is about how to improve it. Also, I see now that you didn`r read all of what I have written. In one of my posts I have said that because of the technology limitations, it will be coin holder responsibility to keep enough coins, so the Block explorer can "display" the needed 75 mill. Also as I have clarified that 5 million are needed for every 75 million in order to participate. It is not headache at all . Imagine that you are responsible for managing PoC list. I am sending you 5 million and you are checking if I have 75 mill. If I do, then I am eligible to start participating. Time for profit is coming (apf, my speller is no good and changed one of the letters ) - ok, now you look at every address from the list if it is holding at least 75 mill for the last 6 months.

To be a part of Karmashares is not the same as to profit share. This is the uniqueness of the PoC and what makes Karma different. If you don`t know, I`ll tell you that there are other coins with shares model, but no other with PoC model. And again, this is not about to keep or not PoC. It is about how to improve it without making it two difficult to understand.

Nice suggestion about the update wallet showing the percentage

About the possibility of dumping in the case of POC ending.
I do not see that as a bad thing, as the price does not really matter right now.
It would see that as a opportunity for the people with less money and a strong belief in Karma to buy more.

all of this info is in the blockchain. you can't see it in the wallet interface so if we did implement a coin age based system then we would need a nice website or updated wallet to go with it so that people could easily see what percentage they were entitled to.



selling LLC membership can only be offered privately so I take your point.. it probably is more difficult to claim that your Karmashares offering is "private" when it has 300+ members.

I am not an expert on LLC licensing in Wyoming so I can't comment on whether the current system is 100% by the letter of the law or not.
all I know is that when the LLC was set up some legal advice was sought.



I know that some people are in favor of scrapping the coin holding profits completely.. but you need to consider that some people will dump if Karmashares do that.. AND nobody will buy Karmashares until there is a very real possibility of ROI.

currently Karmashares has no revenues and no profit so it will be very difficult to convince people to buy Karmashares.

This is nice. I like your addition and I am for it.

Actually, this investment should be a bigger percentage. I am suggesting this because I want to eliminate exchanges from profit sharing. This percentage + my proposal about how all future discussions on deals should be made are making it to hard and risky for any exchange to share profit. 1.5% is worth the risk for any exchange. But 6.666e% and above doesn`t. So I think that this percentage should be kept and if majority wants even increased. And one think should be also clear. I am suggesting not 5 million for 75+million holdings, but 5 million for every 75 million. After all we don`t want Karma to be in a few hands. We want it to flow and I think that my model is good for it. Not everyone is willing to manage multiple wallets. This is another reason why I`ve reduced my initial proposal for 150 million holdings.

I like some of your suggestions for improving the POC model.

But honestly I think the POC model represents too much of a headache.
For instance, how can you really know that a given person has more than 10 million coins in their wallet?
The wallet even has invisible addresses, that I was not even aware some months ago...
You may see a balance of >10 million Karma in your wallet, but maybe not even a single address of yours has more than 10 million (although that would be uncommon it can happen...).

Also I'm not sure if having 30 members is the same as having 300 members (because of POC holders) in the eyes of the regulatory entities.

My thinking process is simple.
If someone wants to be part of the Karmashares then they should buy shares.

work out a way to use coin age to determine profit shares.

in other words.. the longer you hold the coins in one address the more X can get...

for example.. say 50% of the profits go to people who buy Karmashares... they are the ones who must register and get BTC profits.
and 50% goes to the community based on coin age.. they are the people who get Karma profits..  ie.. no registration necessary and profits get paid as Karma directly to the wallets with the oldest coins.

it doesn't have to be 50% 50% it could be any split that the community decides.

I think if Karmashares was split into two classes of "shares" ..

Class A karmashares for people who buy..
and Class B profit shares for people who hold coins.

Class A can have full voting rights.
Class B has no voting rights and only a share of profits.


I think if you do this then there will always be buying pressure for Karma.. because in order to pay dividends to the coin holders Karmashares will be buying coins on the open market. and in order to get more profits people will be holding coins for as long as they can.


we need to remember that Karmashares LLC is a limited liability company and not a Corpration.. so "Members" can decide who gets paid what and how much.
from my limited understanding of an LLC,  members are also entitled to decide who becomes and member and who doesn't, they can decide to kick anyone out at any time so if they find an exchange has been gaming the system, then there is no problem excluding them from payouts.

I agree.
What i would suggest is, like you said, people also have to send an amount of coins to karmashares llc, which is used for projects etc. This amount should not be too high! As people dont want to make a 50 euro investment for maaaaaybe proffits.
So the minimum of karma to hold in a wallet is 75 mil and of that 75 mil, 1.5% of the amount you are holding should be donated. This should be one easy click, as fast as you have this amount your wallet, there should be a possibility to say in that same wallet, i want to participate in the profit sharing, with that agreement, 1.5% will bw withdrawn from your wallet and send to the llc. As of now you participate.

Opinions?

ptman, Bierworst, Alphi and all that will read my proposal. Please focus on how to improve PoC model, not on should it be removed or not. The discussion is not about kill or keep PoC. It is about how to make PoC better. Also I am thinking of PoC model as an integral part of Karma ecosystem, which also have Code of conduct. So, I have made proposal for penalty system. Please take a look at both proposals. First I have suggested in our forum that the minimum amount is to be 150 million Karma. Then I reduced this number to 75 million, but keeping in mind about the technical limitations which affects the amount for each wallet that is displayed in Block explorer. So, every holder will have the responsibility to keep enough coins in his wallet, so 75 million to be displayed in block explorer. All of my suggestions doesn`t need any substantial work or development. They are quite easy to implement and understand. We all just have to agree on them.

This is all pure price dependent. If karma costs 600 litoshi, 100 million karma will have a price of 3000$ (correct me if im wrong). So it becomes buisiness 101, if i have 10.000 books and i sell them for 10$ a piece, 4000 of them get sold and i receive 40.000$, but if i make them 30$  a piece i only get 1000 sold because some people cant give that extra 20$ so i only receive 30.000$
Maybe not only do you reach less people, you also receive less.
What is better, 400 people with 10 million coins off the market, or 20 people with 100 million coins of the market.
I personally think its better to reach more people AND to have big whales inside the llc.

So you are just talking about its too easy for other to profit, but if it is interesting for more people it could also be reflected on the price, so or you only profit on karmashares llc, or you profit less on karmashares llc and more on karma.