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Topic: [ANN][MOTO] Motocoin - page 3. (Read 178253 times)

legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
November 11, 2015, 03:40:09 PM
Hi MOTOCoin Members,  i had a few questions about specs.

1.  Confirm received?
2.  Confirm rewards?
3.  Max coin cap?


  • Blocks are generated on average every 60 seconds.
  • The reward for solving a block starts at 20 motocoins, which is halved every 1'000'000 blocks (about two years) and stops decreasing at 0.4 motocoins per block.
  • Mining difficulty is adjusted every 2000 blocks through lowering the target time if blocks took less than an average of 60 seconds to generate, or raising the target time if blocks took longer than that.
  • ≈40 million coins are to be generated during the first 12 years and ≈200,000 coins per year after.
full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
November 09, 2015, 07:28:29 PM
Hi MOTOCoin Members,  i had a few questions about specs.

1.  Confirm received?
2.  Confirm rewards?
3.  Max coin cap?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 30, 2015, 04:45:34 PM

Quote
It would be great to have option for multiple players in the same field, even if it's 5 or 10 bikes at the same time, and the one that get's the coin wins ofcourse.

Who would control the rewinds?
Does that matter? Couldn't you just control your own?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
October 30, 2015, 03:50:30 PM
A faucet would be nice. Lately Chopcoin.io is quite popular you should check it out. It has a faucet playground and also tournament options.

What we are talking about is more of an on-chain, decentralized faucet.

Quote
It would be great to have option for multiple players in the same field, even if it's 5 or 10 bikes at the same time, and the one that get's the coin wins ofcourse.

Who would control the rewinds?

Quote
That would make more competition and more sense of community. Add a chat, tipping etc. Just some ideas. I think Moto can become more popular if it has more features and less worry about bots.

Again, the worry is not about bots, directly, but about the ongoing lack of any decentralization of the security...
legendary
Activity: 1960
Merit: 1010
October 30, 2015, 01:49:54 PM
A faucet would be nice. Lately Chopcoin.io is quite popular you should check it out. It has a faucet playground and also tournament options.

It would be great to have option for multiple players in the same field, even if it's 5 or 10 bikes at the same time, and the one that get's the coin wins ofcourse.
That would make more competition and more sense of community. Add a chat, tipping etc. Just some ideas. I think Moto can become more popular if it has more features and less worry about bots.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
October 30, 2015, 11:34:54 AM
Has development continued or has it stopped?

I fiddled a bit with a few patch concepts this week but did not get to a start that I was happy with.  However I did not have a lot of time to apply to it.

Also I've been pondering an alternative approach of a proposal that combines the "free level" faucet distribution mechanic with a proof-of-stake like mining to achieve the same outcome without the network paying out for the free levels.  The idea is that users (who already have coins) could bond a limited number of coins in a commitment transaction to get a seed for a level that spans multiple blocks.  They'd then have a fixed number of blocks after the commitment in which to submit a solution.  Their coins would remain locked for the duration of the period, but at the end of the period if they have found their solution they can submit it along with a block header signing to claim a stake block, with a reward set as a percentage of their stake, not to exceed the normal block reward.  In the period between their commitment and their solution submission their staked amount would be eroded, with a small portion being put into the faucet pool at each block.  (Less than their block reward, total)  Users without coins could then mine against "free levels" to claim a portion of this pool.

In this way, it would be users who are staking (but not meeting their solution requirement "immediately") who would be paying into the faucet instead of the network itself paying in.  This mitigates the concern about the network paying for work that isn't applied to securing the chain, as the network would still only be paying for "real" work or stake bonding, both of which do add depth to the chain.

There are still some problems with the concept to work out, so I'm not entirely convinced yet that it is viable.  However if it could be made to work I think it would be quite a beneficial option.  It could add two attractive new ways to mine moto without facing constant level restarts and doesn't (indirectly) reduce security on the network as the "free level faucet" alone arguably does.  It also provides for a nice "on ramp" to real mining, where a user can go from "faucet" mining tiny amounts with virtually unlimited time to solve levels, to staking their small amounts of coins in a more time constrained challenge to get more than the faucet trickle rewards, to finally competing in the "real" work challenge where they are on the block clock and have to deal with restarts, but get the greatest reward for their work.

Thoughts?

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
October 28, 2015, 12:09:04 PM
If anyone thought Human Mining was not possible, well, you're wrong!

I have successfully mined a block! It took around 40 minutes, but I did it!

I have uploaded the video to youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCPHtSjqNI0
Oh LOL it was fun, when before you reach a block in first time some girl writes you and reset a level =)
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 23, 2015, 08:03:41 PM
Has development continued or has it stopped?
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
October 21, 2015, 01:56:01 PM
Is there an open source public bot that works on the current version?
No, all previous open source bots don't work now. The last working public bot is closed source and for Windows only.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 18, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
I hate to ask, but has development started yet or are we still discussing options?

Is there an open source public bot that works on the current version?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 18, 2015, 05:52:06 AM
Is this coin still alive?
You can still sync, so I guess so.
full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
October 18, 2015, 05:48:05 AM
Is this coin still alive?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 18, 2015, 05:46:09 AM
Damn that sucks. You know I think humans would have a fair chance against the bots even now if our maps had a filter. Do you know how long your bot takes to complete a level on average (after it finds a map)

After the last patch came out (that uses pathfinding to eliminate easy fall-through levels) map filters became almost useless so I didn't even bother with them too much. The best filter now is just to try to actually solve the level. At least for bots. They enumerate tens or hundreds of levels per second and just try to solve them.

But I still believe that humans can filter maps much better than bots. Humans can look at the map and almost immediatelly see some good ways to solve it. For example, they can see some small hole and quickly decide if it would be possible to squeeze through it or not (I don't mean that they simply measure the size of that hole, but that they take into account many other parameters such as if there is enough space around that hole, possible trajectories to enter that hole and so on).

The problem is that they can't then ride the bike along that choosen trajectory as quickly as bots can. It would be interesting if humans could draw the rough trajectory (with desired bike orientations) or just somehow lead the bike with the mouse and the rest of the work was up to the bot. This hybrid cound possibly outperform even current bots.

Quote
Can you please refresh me on your solution? I don't recall hearing about it. Smiley

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12684680
Interesting thoughts about humans, but when I watch bot replays I can see an almost straight line to the finish line. But when I look through levels, by the time I find such a level where there is a clear path time is almost up to solve the level. It is almost impossible for me to solve levels. You can see in my video, I finally found a block after 35 minutes of searching. I came close once but the time just wasn't long enough for me to grab the coins.

Actually you're right. Thinking back to the first days of Motocoin, I could get one block at least every 10 minutes, and I wasn't even trying hard. Right now I need to try very hard and the only reason I got that block on the video is because the bots didn't find a block for 3 minutes. You can see I even gave up because I thought I wouldn't have enough time (when I sent that girl a message) but then I somehow managed to gab the coin at the end.
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
October 18, 2015, 04:50:52 AM
Damn that sucks. You know I think humans would have a fair chance against the bots even now if our maps had a filter. Do you know how long your bot takes to complete a level on average (after it finds a map)

After the last patch came out (that uses pathfinding to eliminate easy fall-through levels) map filters became almost useless so I didn't even bother with them too much. The best filter now is just to try to actually solve the level. At least for bots. They enumerate tens or hundreds of levels per second and just try to solve them.

But I still believe that humans can filter maps much better than bots. Humans can look at the map and almost immediatelly see some good ways to solve it. For example, they can see some small hole and quickly decide if it would be possible to squeeze through it or not (I don't mean that they simply measure the size of that hole, but that they take into account many other parameters such as if there is enough space around that hole, possible trajectories to enter that hole and so on).

The problem is that they can't then ride the bike along that choosen trajectory as quickly as bots can. It would be interesting if humans could draw the rough trajectory (with desired bike orientations) or just somehow lead the bike with the mouse and the rest of the work was up to the bot. This hybrid cound possibly outperform even current bots.

Quote
Can you please refresh me on your solution? I don't recall hearing about it. Smiley

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12684680
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 18, 2015, 03:55:02 AM
Also, I think there is no way to allow 60 sec maps for humans anyway. Bots are incredibly good at solving 60 sec levels. In fact, human levels should have target time smaller than real blockchain levels.

It would also be very interesting if you try to solve the level with the same target time as you did before (27 sec) but without force restarts and compare how much easier it was. You can start the level and then unplug your internet connection to disable restarts (you will not get any reward of course).
Damn that sucks. You know I think humans would have a fair chance against the bots even now if our maps had a filter. Do you know how long your bot takes to complete a level on average (after it finds a map)

Quote
There is absolutelly no difference between your solution and mine in this particular aspect (if I understand your solution correctly). If you just divide 10 moto from each block among all free solutions in last 10 blocks you will get almost the same result.

Can you please refresh me on your solution? I don't recall hearing about it. Smiley
newbie
Activity: 37
Merit: 0
October 18, 2015, 03:48:37 AM
The "number of blocks to average" would always be a specific value such as 10.

The advantage over a small fixed amount is that it will encourage humans to mine (by giving them a higher reward) when few are mining and a lower reward when lots are mining. This will then also allow us to control the money supply better. Otherwise if hundreds of humans started mining the moneysupply would increase dramatically.

There is absolutelly no difference between your solution and mine in this particular aspect (if I understand your solution correctly). If you just divide 10 moto from each block among all free solutions in last 10 blocks you will get almost the same result.

Quote
If we also make it so that a human must solve their map within 10 blocks of their map being first generated then it stops people from this attack:
Someone uses a bot to create 100 "human" mined maps and then releases them all in one block. Unless they have a really fast bot of course...

Ideally humans should only have 3 blocks to solve their map to stop this kind of attack. I find it quite easy to solve a 60 second map in 2 minutes.

In fact, what we are trying to do is to remove any of this "10 blocks" limits.

To stop that kind of attack we can just set the limit of free levels per block to some small amount (5 for example). Then adjustment of the target time will quickly decrease this amount to 1 free level per block on average.

Also, I think there is no way to allow 60 sec maps for humans anyway. Bots are incredibly good at solving 60 sec levels. In fact, human levels should have target time smaller than real blockchain levels.

It would also be very interesting if you try to solve the level with the same target time as you did before (27 sec) but without force restarts and compare how much easier it was. You can start the level and then unplug your internet connection to disable restarts (you will not get any reward of course).
legendary
Activity: 1135
Merit: 1166
October 18, 2015, 03:40:09 AM
Ideally, you should write a section or two about Motocoin, proof-of-play and the issues as well as proposed solutions related to botting -- and, of course, be co-author of the paper.  Is there any interest in that?

I could check this article to ensure that it doesn't contain any serious mistakes about botting. But I'm not a native speaker and also do not know as much as HMC about target time calculation, anti-warp feature and the history of MOTO...

Thanks for the offer - I've take a closer look, and apparently the journal restricts articles to max. 4,000 words.  That's very tight -- so I'll have to see what to focus on.  Maybe I just include the new ideas I have without going into detail for either Motocoin nor Huntercoin (although I'll be sure to mention them).  I'll post a preview of the article in any case, of course.

We could also try to work together on another, more review-like article describing the existing systems in addition.  But that would be something for the future, not immediate for me.

For you I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can!

One thing that might be nice to touch on, if only briefly: the differences between proof-of-play for tracking game state across blocks only (as in huc) versus proof-of-play for chain security (as in moto) and the trade-offs involved in such decisions.


Since the Ledger journal seems to impose a very strict length restriction (3,000 to 4,000 words only), I'll probably focus only on the Huntercoin ideas -- basically the post I wrote over there (which you commented on) with some additional explanation and more security analysis.

But if I have enough space to mention proof-of-play or human-mining in the introduction in a general discussion, I will definitely point out the two different systems and compare them briefly.  The other idea is (as already written above) to write both the paper about game channels and another one giving more like a review of proof-of-play in general.  There, I (or we if you are interested) could go into more details of the general ideas and their differences.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 17, 2015, 04:22:12 PM

Hey ElvenArcher (and/or HunterMinerCrafter), what do you think about this idea?

HMC is this what you wanted? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12688630

I hope that is what you meant by formulas without numbers.

In this what is "number of blocks to average?"  Just an arbitrarily selected constant?

Can you elaborate on what the advantage would be over a small, fixed amount being distributed, with a percentage going to the "real" block miner?
The "number of blocks to average" would always be a specific value such as 10.

The advantage over a small fixed amount is that it will encourage humans to mine (by giving them a higher reward) when few are mining and a lower reward when lots are mining. This will then also allow us to control the money supply better. Otherwise if hundreds of humans started mining the moneysupply would increase dramatically.

If we also make it so that a human must solve their map within 10 blocks of their map being first generated then it stops people from this attack:
Someone uses a bot to create 100 "human" mined maps and then releases them all in one block. Unless they have a really fast bot of course...

Ideally humans should only have 3 blocks to solve their map to stop this kind of attack. I find it quite easy to solve a 60 second map in 2 minutes.

I'm assuming you guys think this its a bad idea or I am annoying you with posts. Sorry.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 101
October 17, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
MOTO has pretty good block explorer on cryptopia: https://www.cryptopia.co.nz/BlockExplorer?coin=MOTO (not fully functional)

And HunterMinerCrafter one, of course: http://37.153.97.65:3000/ (does not work right now)
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1001
Crypto since 2014
October 17, 2015, 04:50:53 AM
I understand what Archer means now, I think.  What he intends could be done without being vulnerable to an attack on the complexity, he is correct there.  However, there is still a bit of a potential problem in that it increases complexity at all.  We would still need to be able to quantify this increase in block validity checking time.

Ok, I'm happy now. We can leave that hash table behind and proceed with 24h solution.

I have uploaded the video to youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCPHtSjqNI0

Wow that was entertaining.

Unfortunatelly, target time would be much more severe if there were 1000 bot miners instead of 10.

P.S. You mined 12 blocks in half an hour on 08.04.2015, did you mine them with public bot?
Yes. I also mined a few more today with the bot.
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