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Topic: [ANN][MOTO] Motocoin - page 35. (Read 178256 times)

sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 12:12:01 PM
NONCE 2 497 787 !! Shocked Shocked

and only 15 seconds for that Huh ?

6 second and 8 000 nonce
2 300 000 and 12 seconds..


HOW?


There are a lot of simple explanations.

First, don't assume that they are starting from 0.  If you run multiple machines against the same work data you will certainly start nonce iteration from different values so as not to overlap work.

Second, don't assume that they are iterating at all like the wallet would.  They are probably using some "bail out" opportunity in map filtering to get a few extra iterations in.

Third, they may just actually be iterating at these speeds.  They may be using GPUs or even more specialized hardware for the map filtering.

Without being able to see the nonce selection process we can't really know much about a nonce.
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
September 03, 2014, 11:57:48 AM
I managed to mine 2 blocks now. One seems to be dismissed though Sad. The other one is waiting for confirmations.
Vz
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
September 03, 2014, 11:56:14 AM
NONCE 2 497 787 !! Shocked Shocked

and only 15 seconds for that Huh ?

6 second and 8 000 nonce
2 300 000 and 12 seconds..


HOW?
legendary
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 09:29:33 AM
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 09:26:10 AM
One question. So the Anti-Warp will increase the needed work to generating one map, until what?

Work requirement increases until there is no longer a warp defecit, meaning solutions do not come in faster than TT.  This means that on average all participants in the network will have at least TT worth of wall clock time to perform the traversal solving step after generating their map.  A "flawless" player using no rewind and playing at realtime framerate would always have an opportunity to solve.  Assuming they always got a good solvable map on the first try, such a player would always end up with a hypothetical 50/50 shot to beat any given bot, before considering map iterations.  Of course map selection is a lottery, hence the relative ratio on nonce iteration factoring into total odds of finding next block, as I outlined in my earlier post.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
EDIT: How about we split the difference and say 198000? I'd have to restart builds.

198000 is OK!

Will do.
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
September 03, 2014, 09:15:21 AM
EDIT: How about we split the difference and say 198000? I'd have to restart builds.

198000 is OK!
Vz
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
September 03, 2014, 09:14:41 AM
Cool! 198000.. just notify C-CEX!  Wink



One question. So the Anti-Warp will increase the needed work to generating one map, until what?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 09:09:07 AM
OMG. Nobody will update it in time. Make it at least at 200000.

It shouldn't matter much, as long as you upgrade before transacting?

EDIT: How about we split the difference and say 198000? I'd have to restart builds.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 09:07:11 AM
Inconvenient for something which usually has twice the bandwidth, twice the processing power, can be equipped twice as easily and can reduce latency to one hundredth.

Let me put this in a way everybody can understand: CPU massive processing is dead, it has been dead long time, either you acknowledge the fact or lie about it... and then get your ass kicked big way when the GPU advantage is unlocked.

The anti-GPU stance is a position only ignorants can defend.

I imagine that at some point the hashing work portions of Moto will have to have an option to use GPUs.
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
September 03, 2014, 09:04:38 AM
OMG. Nobody will update it in time. Make it at least at 200000.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 08:51:38 AM
https://github.com/motocoin-dev/motocoin/commit/37e8df5d1456494f40cd8f1ad5ed74a593928146

Code:
Block 196000 fork
  10 times more frequent (200 block) anti-warp target interval
(also removes map filters)

I'll upload builds shortly.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
September 03, 2014, 07:40:14 AM
It's not a problem actually, we can try to find some heavy hash alghorithm which require huge amount of memory (bye-bye asics) and which are very inconvinient for GPUs.
Inconvenient for something which usually has twice the bandwidth, twice the processing power, can be equipped twice as easily and can reduce latency to one hundredth.

Let me put this in a way everybody can understand: CPU massive processing is dead, it has been dead long time, either you acknowledge the fact or lie about it... and then get your ass kicked big way when the GPU advantage is unlocked.

The anti-GPU stance is a position only ignorants can defend.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 06:09:18 AM
It's not a problem actually, we can try to find some heavy hash alghorithm which require huge amount of memory (bye-bye asics) and which are very inconvinient for GPUs.

This is mostly just another holy war that I'm going to try to avoid stepping into.  All I'll say here is that I don't currently intend to explore replacing SHA, and you'll probably have a tough time convincing me that there would be any sustainable benefit.

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We don't even need to make them unnoticable. Parameters can vary within the range +/- 20%. I bet it wouldn't be a problem for people even if they would need to drive bike and 5 seconds later it would transform to hellicopter.

Sure, but if you make them too noticeable it just becomes something else bots can leverage, too.

In any case you have the frame-rate inconsistency problem to resolve.

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Anyway, the final decision is yours of course...

Not really, anyone can propose a patch.  (I'd much prefer it if I weren't the only one implementing changes, anyway.)
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
September 03, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
The real problem here is that what is "2-3 sec on average" worth of work for an "average pc" might be virtually no work at all for a gpu/asic.  What is 2-3 seconds of work for an asic might take hours on an average pc.  It can't really be constant, it needs to adapt to network conditions.

It's not a problem actually, we can try to find some heavy hash alghorithm which require huge amount of memory (bye-bye asics) and which are very inconvinient for GPUs.

Quote
While I tend to agree that this would be quite a good solution, I have yet to find a reasonable way to actually execute it.  If the work "mixed in" has too much impact on the physics it makes for some unpleasant experience for a human player.  If it does not have enough impact then bots can simply ignore the perturbations and solve without the extra work and just "double check" their solutions for validity with the work cycles added back in.

We don't even need to make them unnoticable. Parameters can vary within the range +/- 20%. I bet it wouldn't be a problem for people even if they would need to drive bike and 5 seconds later it would transform to hellicopter.

Anyway, the final decision is yours of course...
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 05:01:51 AM
Hit a few snags, but am nearly done with patches now.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
September 03, 2014, 04:22:09 AM
1) No matter how clever this bot is, he still requires to enumerate thousands of maps. We should make map generation really slow process that require a lot of hash work (you can take some average pc and tune this alghorithm so that it require 2-3 sec on average). It would definitelly be inconvinient for people but we must do it. Don't invent complex anti-warp algorithm etc, just make this hash work constant and huge.

The real problem here is that what is "2-3 sec on average" worth of work for an "average pc" might be virtually no work at all for a gpu/asic.  What is 2-3 seconds of work for an asic might take hours on an average pc.  It can't really be constant, it needs to adapt to network conditions.

The anti-warp is not complex, it is precisely what you're asking for but without the "constant and huge" part.  It is just a dynamic slowdown to map generation. (EDIT: I should clarify that the "constant" part is intentionally avoided, and the "huge" part is what we're now trying to improve.  The problem we currently are facing is basically that the anti-warp slowdown isn't "getting bigger enough, fast enough" to also be useful as an anti-bot mechanism, particularly with one bot outperforming so significantly.)

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2) We should slow down solving process too by requring around 1 sec of hash work every 3-5 seconds of playing and mix founded nonces in the physics (alter velocity, acceleration etc) (this changes should be significant, it should be impossible to ignore them). I know the game will hang sometimes (when hash is not ready yet), but I think we can accept it. Also this would require us to enlarge proof of work significantly (we'll have to save our hash nonces somewhere) but this step is really neccessary.

While I tend to agree that this would be quite a good solution, I have yet to find a reasonable way to actually execute it.  If the work "mixed in" has too much impact on the physics it makes for some unpleasant experience for a human player.  If it does not have enough impact then bots can simply ignore the perturbations and solve without the extra work and just "double check" their solutions for validity with the work cycles added back in.

Further, collision timing is entirely unpredictable so in any case this means frame-rates would become uneven for humans, which creates quite a jarring experience.

I'd love to see some dynamic work requirement directly "baked into traversal" in this fashion, but I simply can't seem to find a way to do it without (significantly) adversely impacting the game itself.

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I've believed and still believe that these two steps will kill all current and future bots for months or even years.

I'm not entirely sure.  Because this would have to be a dynamic scale, I worry that it would just create a second sort of "map restarts problem" by pushing humans' frame-rates absurdly low.

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You will probably not be able to mine with your bot too, but you have already proved that you don't care too much about it.

Again the goal is not, has never been, and will never be to cut out bots entirely.  To do so would probably be nearly impossible, and would certainly be dangerous.  Both of these principles were demonstrated nicely this week.  We need to get to a state where the challenge is, all around, well balanced between machine and human so that we can have a diverse set of bots functioning to offer around-the-clock network security but without too much impact on human mining.

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