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Topic: [ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread - page 356. (Read 1276826 times)

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The problem with a pure implementation of Proof of Stake - all technical difficulties aside, is it's always going to be a monopoly in favor of those that already have stakes - which is untenable for a currency which needs to gain an audience and circulation.

I agree but I think that is a problem with a solution. As scammy as Auroracoin is it has the right idea. Could you imagine a government using proof-of-stake crypto to implement a basic income scheme? Every month registered citizens automatically receive a certain amount of crypto income which they can automatically save by generating blocks or spend. That would solve the unequal stake distribution that Peercoin and its clones suffer from.

There would certainly be identity fraud, but the government deals with pension/Social Security fraud every day and is best equipped to handle it. Whether or not a major country would actually try this initiative is another question. But I think there will be at least one country with a weak currency that tries it out.

The other issue, which jgarzik mentioned earlier, that "in PoS there is nothing at stake" is also a technical problem that I think Ethereum will be trying to solve.

Actually even if you had a way to distribute a Pure Proof of Stake implementation fairly and uniformly - it would still be a poor medium of exchange - this is because even if the currency was inflationary it would still only be inflationary for the holders, meaning that spending would be arbitrarily discouraged. (That is to say the person that did not spend but instead increased his Proof of Stake reserves would gain more and more advantage just with passing time, in a way currency already works this way (compare those for whom most of their income is consumed by day to day life, to those that have surplus to invest and earn a return on) - only it would be exacerbated by the Proof of Stake implementation (You wouldn't even need to invest to earn returns!).

It is possible to conceive a centralized inflationary PoS scheme (such as the government acquiring all newly created funds), but this would rather terminate the point of PoS and decentralized currency - although it would make it into a functional medium of exchange. I suspect terms similar to these are the only one's under which a government would actually back a cryptocurrency - since otherwise it would mean forfeiting centralized control of the money supply.

As to Jgarzik's comment, I'm not sure what the context is, but supposedly you are able to double or multi-sign the same numbered Block, this could be penalized for by doing something like a reverse Ghost weighting - i.e. reducing signature weight for outputs present in more than 1 uncle of the last block (but that might be too much added overhead). There are probably a lot of other issues though - I'm not that well technically informed.

edit: just to be clear, in the above I'm not talking about the distribution but about the actual equilibrium state that Pure PoS would gravitate to.
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its good to read unbiased opinions on reddit
can someone include a link please? TY
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The problem with a pure implementation of Proof of Stake - all technical difficulties aside, is it's always going to be a monopoly in favor of those that already have stakes - which is untenable for a currency which needs to gain an audience and circulation.

The problem with a pure implementation of Proof of Work is it's always going to be a monopoly in favor of those who have lots of hardware, which is untenable for a currency which needs to gain an audience and circulation.

Under both systems, investors (directly or in hardware/mining costs) / early adopters will have all the coins.  Once the currency gains usefulness, the demand will grow and these folks will sell their coins on the free market to anybody who wants one, at the right price.  

The "wider adoption" process works the same way eventually, it's just the initial distribution that's different.  One of them is a gigantic waste of electricity and hardware resources, and the other tends to make the developers rich.  Counterparty is the ONLY crypto-currency that has eschewed BOTH of these methods with a truly fair distribution.
legendary
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The problem with a pure implementation of Proof of Stake - all technical difficulties aside, is it's always going to be a monopoly in favor of those that already have stakes - which is untenable for a currency which needs to gain an audience and circulation.
As opposed to the current system where only the people who can afford $10,000 KNC miners have a say, and take 10% of the money supply?
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Digitizing Valuable Hard Assets with Crypto
Taking policy fights out in the press never gets the wronged party what it wants.

Blockchain.info got Apple to allow wallets in the iPhone when they took out multilple press releases/blog posts. People even shot up their iphones and Apple cried.

legendary
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 its good to read unbiased opinions on reddit
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The problem with a pure implementation of Proof of Stake - all technical difficulties aside, is it's always going to be a monopoly in favor of those that already have stakes - which is untenable for a currency which needs to gain an audience and circulation.
legendary
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This discussion over the past week has made me buy into the argument that proof-of-work is not viable in the long run because it will be cartelized by a few powerful miners.

Proof of stake has its own issues currently but those are technical issues that can be solved, not a political one.
I think the hybrid model, like Peercoin, is the best. Benefits of both, without the drawbacks.
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I mean you have to realize - your average person isn't going to read the article and then research the facts. He's going to read 'storage problems' - 'free ride' - 'Mike Hearn's proposal' - and then make pointed considerations as a credible authority about what he just read five minutes ago. 
Most of these arguments have been debunked (even the point that Jgarzik conceded in support of OP_Return 80) - I have not double checked dex7's analysis of multi-sig transactions - but as far as I can tell he is the only one that even performed said analysis - the Dev's apparently didn't feel obligated to do any such thing.
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It's not very well researched.

it is number 1 in reddit/bitcoin

I saw. I made a few comments (though one of my coindesk comment's is missing idk why?) -

Overall I think this issue has brought out a lot about Bitcoin development and the environment around it, and I'd hate the for the serious discussion to be lost among those misinformed 'those whiny guys want to store their data' comments. I don't think that moves anything forward, and unfortunately I think the Coindesk article being poorly researched inclines people towards that kind of shallow point of view.
Then again maybe my expectations of redditors are far too high.

The article is not that bad, don't forget that we are all biaised toward XCP since most of us own some XCP and support the project. Besides, there is no such thing as bad press.

Glad to see it reached the top on reddit, I suspected it to be downvoted like hell because of the "get out of my blockchain effet"
legendary
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I've heard many complaints about all the altcoins, then we can't allow an extra 40 bytes for the metachains that are trying to build on top of Bitcoin?

Blockchain bloat is a technical problem that can be solved. I don't think anyone should be gatekeepers to what should or should not be stored in the blockchain.
full member
Activity: 214
Merit: 101
It's not very well researched.

it is number 1 in reddit/bitcoin

I saw. I made a few comments (though one of my coindesk comment's is missing idk why?) -

Overall I think this issue has brought out a lot about Bitcoin development and the environment around it, and I'd hate the for the serious discussion to be lost among those misinformed 'those whiny guys want to store their data' comments. I don't think that moves anything forward, and unfortunately I think the Coindesk article being poorly researched inclines people towards that kind of shallow point of view.
Then again maybe my expectations of redditors are far too high.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
It's not very well researched.

it is number 1 in reddit/bitcoin

it opens basically the question what the bitcoin blockchain is for - I think this question is quite elemental. anyway good to see your comment in the discussion on reddit
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It's not very well researched.
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legendary
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+1 for Common Sense

When you really think about it in a global way, storing data in a second blockchain is even more wasteful.

Imagine these two future cases:
Scenario 1: Bitcoin + Counterparty
Scenario 2: Bitcoin + BitcoinLikeSecondChain + Counterparty

Scenario #2 will always use up more data globally than #1 because we have to add in the second chain + its overheads.
Scenario #2 makes all parties (Bitcoin, BitcoindSecondChain, and Counterparty) a little less secured.

Why have Counterparty/metaprotocols running on top of a second chain when it's even simpler to integrate directly into the chain like some of the Bitcoin competitors?  Why even have OP_RETURN?  Why even have script if we really want to save every bit of space?

Counterparty is just tiny writings in the margins of the Bitcoin book.  Reducing the margin to 40 bytes and advocating that all metaprotocols write to more books is just encouraging more wasted resources for everyone on the planet -- just so we might save up a few bytes in one book.

Allowing just enough room in OP_RETURN for a hash is like leaving enough room for Fermat to write down one last equation when that one equation could have led to another, and another in a chain of discoveries.  It makes sense that a little more room for writing in the margin will make the Bitcoin book more valuable for everyone NOW before the new competitions come.

Please allow some room in the margins instead of encouraging metaprotocols to waste more trees by starting more useless books.

It is called a free ride.  Given that the overwhelming majority -- >90% -- application for the bitcoin blockchain is currency use, using full nodes as dumb data storage terminals is simply abusing an all-volunteer network resource.  The network replicates transaction data, so why not come along for a free ride?

Rather than engage the existing community, mastercoin and counterparty simply flipped an "on" switch and started using bitcoin P2P nodes as unwanted data stores.  An unspent transaction output was never meant to be used as arbitrary data storage.  The fact that it can be abused as such does not make it right, or remotely efficient, or the best solution.

The UTXO (unspent transaction output) database is the entire network's fast access database.  Every single node needs that database to be as small as possible, for best processing of network transactions.  Encoding arbitrary data into unspent outputs is network-wide abuse, plain and simple.  The entire network bears the cost.



Why not just charge people that want to store data, pass the fee to the nodes and developers?

Unless it significantly impacts processing speed, all those professional mining operations need to earn extra revenue so they can keep up with the ASIC arms race.
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Desperate times call for desperate measures. And with pain in my heart I've called upon the ultimate weapon: the Bayeux Tapestry Generator.



Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds




haha this is great
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