Topic: [ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development - page 59. (Read 380060 times)

Quote from: Beave162 on August 05, 2014, 05:29:26 PM

It's highly doubtful that cryptocoins in its current form will be still in fashion in 5-10 years.

All cryptocoins will be dead in 5-10 years? What would be the point of hard forking a coin again?

What I meant was that by then cryptocoin technology would have evolved so much that cryptocoins in their today's form, with all their disadvantages, would have little point to exist. Every coin alive will have moved on. Those without devs attention will be left behind with no POW feed. YAC would have undergone perhaps more than one hardforks if the devs are still active. The high inflation problem will pobably have been recognized and fixed. So talking about inflation reaching 5% in YAC's current life (in at least 33 years) is next to meaningless ... well maybe except in a cryptocoin mueseum.

YAC will suffer from great and nearly constant sell pressure throughout It's current life, and should not be treated as a credible currency.

I remember a time when a lot of friends would just buy stock in Google. It was a seemingly no-risk investment that was guaranteed to go up. One would say there was constant buy pressure. There seemed to be an obvious trend. And well, it turned out you can't just look at a trend and predict the future that easily. I was buying up tons of LiteCoin until I got frustrated and sold 13,000 at $1.60. One week later, the price had skyrocketed to $48. There was constant sell pressure I swear... until the Chinese came in. It still definitely makes me sick to think how much I could have made, but that is speculation for you.

I agree that there will be expected and unexpected up and downs. It's conceivable that hash rate will go up and consequently inflation and sell pressure will go down for YAC. I am just pointing out that at low network hash rate the 100+% inflation (max=200%) , and sell pressure, are written in the code and unavoidable, unless behavior of market prices.

caston

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

Yeah... exactly... buy all you can... YAC is ridiculously underpriced right now.

Beave162

hero member

Activity: 809

Merit: 501

IPO and instamine scams are bad. But YAC is going to the opposite extreme.

You may be right. The beauty of the free market is that not one person is smarter than the voluntary interactions of the many. I think the price at this point has reflected that YAC has gone to the opposite extreme, but I don't think it will be so in the future. There are other factors that can affect the price, hash rate, volume. There are a lot of scenarios and opportunities that could be very beneficial for YAC.

It's highly doubtful that cryptocoins in its current form will be still in fashion in 5-10 years.

All cryptocoins will be dead in 5-10 years? What would be the point of hard forking a coin again?

YAC will suffer from great and nearly constant sell pressure throughout It's current life, and should not be treated as a credible currency.

Quote from: ilostcoins on August 03, 2014, 11:05:10 AM

It will basically be an interesting POW algorithm experiment and a tool for speculation.

That sounds good in a way. It also sounds exactly.like.bitcoin.

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

The market is totally flooded with coins that hand a tremendous advantage to people who grab some near the beginning. I doubt joining that very long list of coins will significantly improve YACoin's long term prospect.

IPO and instamine scams are bad. But YAC is going to the opposite extreme. 40 times today's YAC supply will have to be created before YAC becomes a dominanly POS cion. It will take several decades to accomplish that as shown in my previous post. It's highly doubtful that cryptocoins in its current form will be still in fashion in 5-10 years. YAC will suffer from great and nearly constant sell pressure throughout It's current life, and should not be treated as a credible currency. It will basically be an interesting POW algorithm experiment and a tool for speculation.

ilostcoins

sr. member

Activity: 274

Merit: 250

Quote from: Beave162 on August 01, 2014, 09:57:40 PM

...
Isn't that actually a good thing in terms of favoring late investors??
...

In my mind, for long term, yes. If I'm to worry about the reward scheme, I'd worry more about the reward coming down too fast if this becomes popular.

Apart from being the first N-change coin, YACoin's POW reward scheme is very much a special feature that shouldn't be touched lightly. The reward dependence on hashrate, together with the N-change schedule give the reward plan something like a fat middle period IF mining capital investment remains the same. Obviously, that mining investment depends on popularity which is hard to predict. Still, this is quite an interesting feature since the overwhelming majority of coins have rewards that never increase. Most go way down in just a few years, and in recent months, the fashion is to have the rewards go way down in just a few months, or weeks, or go to 0 from the start. The market is totally flooded with coins that hand a tremendous advantage to people who grab some near the beginning. I doubt joining that very long list of coins will significantly improve YACoin's long term prospect.

caston

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

When a coin does become unprofitable to mine that is definitely the time to start buying. Very cheap to buy a million YAC at these prices and to be honest I'm very tempted to do so over the next month or so.

aso118

legendary

Activity: 1918

Merit: 1012

★Nitrogensports.eu★

Quote from: caston on August 02, 2014, 12:29:11 PM

Maybe to help miner profitability we could pay transaction fees instead of destroying them.

I really hope we get a price rise soon though. I keep telling people to buy as much YAC as they can because I think it's going up. I really hope i'm right.

Profitability of almost all the coins is very poor at the moment. I can remember a time when my mining rig earned more than I did.

I remember when my mining rigs made more then I did too. All Altcoins are down, but YAC has a strong foundation and will continue to be there in the future.

Good discussion in the last few posts. Personally, I think the block rewards, coin value, and mining hash rate could all be improved with the multipool we placed a bounty on a few months ago.

http://forum.yacoin.org/index.php?topic=639.msg3238#msg3238

Anyone willing, or know someone, who could help set something like this up? Even if it was scrypt mining that paid in YAC to get started - I would move all of my miners there.

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

Quote from: Thirtybird on August 02, 2014, 09:48:49 AM

Quote

The current parameters favors late miners.

I'm not sure what exactly is favoring late miners. Looking strictly at block reward, maybe, but if you compare it to price (against BTC and BTC price), late miners don't get much...

It was in block reward sense. At 120% inflation, new (or just say current) miners will own more coins than all other current owners of YAC in less than a year. The price of a newly mined YAC is the same as that of an old one. YAC wealth is redistributed in favor of the current miners

caston

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

Quote from: WindMaster on August 02, 2014, 05:14:41 AM

It was you and thanks for that. Many contributors, too. I have heard you profitted nicely in the deal. Hope you contribute more.

Read it when you were thought to have left the community. If true it's not a bad thing that those who contribute get rewarded.

Thirtybird

hero member

Activity: 693

Merit: 500

Quote

The current parameters favors late miners.

Disagree. I've been mining YACoin since May 13, 2013 at every difficulty and every NFactor. From a YAC->BTC revenue, YAC was best around July 2013 with another good period this past December/January. Right now, mining is not terribly "profitable". It's still more than the cost of electricity, and my mining rigs paid for themselves months ago, so they're still running, but I have to evaluate whether to keep going every month.

I'm not sure what exactly is favoring late miners. Looking strictly at block reward, maybe, but if you compare it to price (against BTC and BTC price), late miners don't get much...

WindMaster

sr. member

Activity: 347

Merit: 250

Quote from: Beave162 on August 01, 2014, 09:57:40 PM

It was you and thanks for that. Many contributors, too. I have heard you profitted nicely in the deal. Hope you contribute more.

caston

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

Hey guys,

Just been reading your comments. Obviously there are interesting to me as I am a large holder of Yacoin.
I do have a question though. Sorry if I have gone off topic.

Does YAC support multisig?

I ask because I want to try to get it listed on some decentralised exchanges and markets.

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

Quote from: WindMaster on August 01, 2014, 02:59:20 PM

The inflation is now 118% pa, or 10% per month, not counting POS.

The inflation decreases over time as the number of mined coins over time becomes a smaller and smaller amount relative to the overall number of coins in existence. Look at what it will be a few years down the road.

There is no guarantee that mined coins will decrease. I hope YAC is till there in a few years. One and one miner can 51% any day. More about security below.

Again, I think your enthusiasm is admirable. It seems to me though that you are very focused on the price of YACoin per Bitcoin? I suggest you look into mining as it is a great way to acquire YACoins, especially if you aren't minting very many through PoS. You have the best people here to assist you with that.

You make some good points. I think you should look at inflation differently. Inflation is a term we are using to describe the increase of money supply. There is one problem with that assumption: YACoin has not been accepted as a form of money by any means, not even close. We are in an adoption phase. I mean even Bitcoin is in an adoption phase that is designed to last for over a hundred years before reaching it's inflation rate of 0.

People will speculate based on future inflation rate more so than the current inflation rate. WindMaster made the point that inflation is a ratio of new coins being created versus coins already in existence. If block reward was a constant 100 forever, PoW inflation rate would decrease over time because the ratio gets smaller and smaller as coins in existence increases. Someone who is pessimistic about the high block reward should wait to enter the market at a price where they think even the 100 block reward limit won't theoretically result in a huge change in price from everyone mining and dumping.

I understand the term of inflation in cryptocurrency world. I can agree with you and WM on the bold part above. It will take another 2.5 years to increase money supply at today's rate before capping at 100 will only cause 50% inflation. If the actual inflation gets lower because more miner mine, the max-inf=50% moment will come later. What a paradox.

The current parameters favors late miners.

Isn't that actually a good thing in terms of favoring late investors?? A low price would also favor late investors, right? You want to enter a market when it is at the bottom, yes?

Well I guess this not the bottom. The bottom and destiny will be in the 10 satoshi range when only a few die hard miners are left and nothing happen to YAC years after years. Existing investors value will be wiped out by perpetual new comers.

Quote

Also, don't overlook PoS. As times moves forward, the amount of coins created through PoS will rise in comparison to coins created through PoW. Theoretically, the price and amount of existing coins could reach a point where it is guaranteed that buying YAC with fiat/bitcoin would be more cost effective than buying the most efficient mining rig because the amount of coins you would create through PoS minting would be more than you could ever hope for with PoW to get return on investment.

Funny you should mention POS. I am interested in YAC because it is one of the major POS coins in my mind. My first POS block was mined in YAC. I am posting about POW here because I don't want hyperinflation to kill YAC. Mine-and-sell backed by high reward drives down prices which brings higher reward. The number of miners will be fewer and fewer. The network becomes less and less secure. If the a top miner does a 51% attack to cryptsy, YAC's reputation as a serious cryptocurrency is over. Or YAC will be a pure hobbist coin.

It will take 33 years to increase money supply at today's rate before capping at 100 will only cause 5% inflation (POS rate) Grin

There will be almost one billion YACs. If you buy and hold and mint POS today, you are looking at loosing 90% of the value. Even YAC price reaches 1 satoshi it might be still fun to play with for me on the technical part. But not all in the community agree with that.

Beave162

hero member

Activity: 809

Merit: 501

Quote from: WindMaster on August 01, 2014, 02:59:20 PM

The inflation is now 118% pa, or 10% per month, not counting POS.

There is no guarantee that mined coins will decrease. I hope YAC is till there in a few years. One and one miner can 51% any day. More about security below.

Quote from: WindMaster on August 01, 2014, 02:59:20 PM

The current parameters favors late miners.

Isn't that actually a good thing in terms of favoring late investors?? A low price would also favor late investors, right? You want to enter a market when it is at the bottom, yes? Compare it to other coins where most of the coins have already been created and only a handful of people are holding on to them... that is way too scammy. I'd rather stick with Bitcoin or even government fiat. I don't care what special characteristics that coin has as a less scammy clone could always be created.

Also, don't overlook PoS. As times moves forward, the amount of coins created through PoS will rise in comparison to coins created through PoW. Theoretically, the price and amount of existing coins could reach a point where it is guaranteed that buying YAC with fiat/bitcoin would be more cost effective than buying the most efficient mining rig because the amount of coins you would create through PoS minting would be more than you could ever hope for with PoW to get return on investment.

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

The inflation is now 118% pa, or 10% per month, not counting POS.

There is no guarantee that mined coins will decrease. I hope YAC is till there in a few years. One and one miner can 51% any day. More about security below.

The top miner at coinmin.pl is getting 84k YAC per day. If the community doesn't do anything YAC will get the reputation that saver's value will be wiped out by a few miners when diff is low.

The community has changed a lot since the early days of YAC. In those days there weren't many investors, just speculators and miners. I care more about what adopters and investors see YAC in the long term. There are already 27m YACs. A lot of newly mined coins aren't that important for YAC economy any more.

YAC survives to this day was not because someone stuck to the original release, but because someone went ahead to keep working and improving.

Was me? The very first thing I did after forking the YACoin source was not to go changing the reward parameters.

It was you and thanks for that. Many contributors, too. I have heard you profitted nicely in the deal. Hope you contribute more.

For a starter, I suggest we change the cap to 25 which effectively sets the index to 0 when diff<=1. The cap is reached when diff<1 . Maximum inflation will be 49% pa. It's still pretty bad but if it is too low the miners aren't too happy. That said if a miner likes ~~YAK~~ YAC, he/she should like low inflation; if she/he doesn't care, then feel free to mine something else.

Translation: "I'd like to hard fork your coin to change the block reward so early investors and miners have a larger advantage over current miners. And if you don't like it, feel free to mine something else."

Is that a fair translation?

It's a narrow minded motivation guess. You are not in the shoes of potential future adopters who mainly look at YAC to see if it is a good store of value. For medium of exchange, unit of account, and network security many other cryptocurrencies are doing just as well.

What is the point of a fancy ASIC-resistant algorithm to avoid hash power concentration when one of today's miners or the dominant mining pool constantly has more than 60% network hash power?

WindMaster

sr. member

Activity: 347

Merit: 250

The inflation is now 118% pa, or 10% per month, not counting POS.

The top miner at coinmin.pl is getting 84k YAC per day. If the community doesn't do anything YAC will get the reputation that saver's value will be wiped out by a few miners when diff is low.

The top miner at coinmine.pl is investing a large amount of hardware resources and power to get those coins. The block reward they're receiving isn't vastly greater than the block reward was during YAC's hash rate peak. Your proposal is to slash their return by more than 1/2 and just cross your fingers that price of YAC rises by an equivalent to compensate, for the purpose of increasing the value of early investors? Sounds more like a recipe to drive away more miners, who are already in short supply. Note, I hold a pretty large quantity of YAC at this point (not quite a million YAC yet though), and even I would be opposed to this change because I've seen numerous other alts try to change their block reward to enrichen the early investors / hodlers and/or penalize miners that came later. I have yet to see that work out particularly well..

There's already a cap on the block reward in place. I would be more worried if there were not, or if modern miners were getting an order of magnitude higher reward now or something, but that is not the case. The sky is not falling. All alts are decreasing in value at the moment. Hard forks and changes to the basic parameters of a coin should be a last resort reserved for extreme circumstances. Note that the YAC community is still alive even though we still have the same basic reward parameters that the coin started with. We prosper by knowing when to keep our hands off the basic parameters of the coin for the purpose of favoring a select part of the community's participants. The way the reward calculation works and is capped wasn't a mystery that was suddenly sprung on everyone recently, it is the same as it has been since the beginning and anyone choosing to participate in YAC should have known what those parameters were when they became involved.

YAC survives to this day was not because someone stuck to the original release, but because someone went ahead to keep working and improving.

Was me? The very first thing I did after forking the YACoin source was not to go changing the reward parameters.

Quote from: Beave162 on July 31, 2014, 05:15:14 PM

ivanlabrie

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

inflation over 40% is already pretty high...look at VTC for instance, it got dumped to hell.

Yac survives mainly because it's hard to mine for farm guys. Price wise.

I really like the concepts and the work the developers have done so far, would love to be able to buy some yac or mine it again, been busy trading other alts lately.

mhps

hero member

Activity: 516

Merit: 500

CAT.EX Exchange

The inflation is now 118% pa, or 10% per month, not counting POS. The top miner at coinmin.pl is getting 84k YAC per day. If the community doesn't do anything YAC will get the reputation that saver's value will be wiped out by a few miners when diff is low.

Couldn't we say the same thing about Bitcoin or any coin that has POW?

We could. Except in its early low hash days Bitcoin community (Satoshi and a few others) didn't care about inflation because BTC was seen as a hobby experiment rather than a serious finacial instrument. That was how Satoshi got his pile of coins. Many people see these early coins as a risk to this day. LTC has not seen its low hash days. PPC, NXT are POS. The small POW alts have all sort of issues that often dwarf inflation.

YAC survives to this day was not because someone stuck to the original release, but because someone went ahead to keep working and improving.

That is definitely the reason I have stuck with YAC, but look at YBCoin or ZCCoin. If you define value as marketcap, they have done amazing well compared to other coins which have phenomenally better in terms of spearheading activity and improvements.

Like NVC, YBcoin and ZCCoin are copycat coins that are mostly owned by a few whales (the devs and insider investors, all in China as I know). The prices of them are highly manipulated, and fixed in tight bands at artificial high numbers by the whales on their own insider exchanges. The marketsA of these coins are cornered. For example if I make a coin and keep 1 billion myself, leaving one thousand to trade on my exchange. When the price is low I buy from myself at $1, then I will have marketcap of $1B.
NVC was the first such coins (NVC is innovative coin but still a scam coiin). Its iinsider exchange is btc-e. Now it has a lot of follower.

I don't know if a hardfork is needed. But if it is, there is only one pool and 60 miners in the world to persuade.

A hardfork is really a vote of no confidence by stakeholders for their own coin. Value is based on perception, 'fiat', so you can imagine how a serious investor would perceive a coin that just forks when a handful of people are unhappy with the price per coin. Plus, you would have to coordinate with the exchanges (you TRUST they will follow through?), and I use the pool yac.m-s-t.org

Let's not kidding ourselves. How serious do the investors you refer to think about 120% pa inflation? I don't think the majority of community members are automatically against a hardfork. In the forum the majority is always silent.

Adding exchanges to coordination list? OK Cryptsy and bter. Two to add. I don't think they care either way, however. coinmine.pl has 70% of YAC hash power. I guess we really only need to talk to one entity.

For a starter, I suggest we change the cap to 25 which effectively sets the index to 0 when diff<=1. The cap is reached when diff<1 . Maximum inflation will be 49% pa. It's still pretty bad but if it is too low the miners aren't too happy. That said if a miner likes YAK, he/she should like low inflation; if she/he doesn't care, then feel free to mine something else.

Even Bitcoin is called an experiment with beta software. We are all in an experiment.
"For a starter" means that it is to start a discussion. Capping at 25 is no random because it brings down inflation down below 50%. YAC has gone through high hash days well so there seems no need to change the index when diff > 1. Now what is your idea if to make a change?
No more technical comment on YBC, which couldn't even think of a better name than using the next letter in the alphabet when copying YAC.

Quote

Your last comment almost implies a point that I would agree with: it seems intuitive that in order for a coin to increase in value, the miners need to mine and HOLD, not mine and dump. If all of the miners just put their yacoins in cold storage forever, wouldn't you retract your suggestion?

Then I will post something about excessive hording, which is a different problem.

Quote

I think it is very difficult to convince someone who is brand new to crypto to mine and NOT dump a coin that is ranked 140 in marketcap when it is profitable to do so. Perhaps a corollary idea of helping people who are already holding to mine would be better at this point. I am flirting with an idea to send a 16GB USB stick to people in exchange for YAC. You could tell me your hardware configuration, and I'll program all the software needed on the USB, so all you will have to do is turn on the Power Supply Unit. I'm weary of the idea because not a single person was interested in my YACrates. Sad

You can lead the horse to the river ... It's far better to perfect the incentive of the coin and let market do its things in the right way. Even you prop up the hash rage by 10 times, the block size and inflation only change 10^1/6 - 1 = 50%. We are talking about 120 - 200% inflation now.

Beave162

hero member

Activity: 809

Merit: 501

Couldn't we say the same thing about Bitcoin or any coin that has POW?

YAC survives to this day was not because someone stuck to the original release, but because someone went ahead to keep working and improving.

I don't know if a hardfork is needed. But if it is, there is only one pool and 60 miners in the world to persuade.