Are no-KYC services banned? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Medusah

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Quote from: joker_josue on May 12, 2024, 03:05:33 AM

Something similar has to happen with mixers. It is true that in many cases, mixers have a direct impact on governments, due to tax avoidance.

They have a direct impact, because they go against their mass surveillance plans. However, even if their primary concern is taxation, what measures can they take against decentralized mixers like Monero? Shutting them down is unfeasible, and there's always the option of exchanging Bitcoin for Monero decentralized. Essentially, they are inadvertently driving us towards adopting unstoppable methods to achieve the same objectives, perhaps even more efficiently than before.

Would that line of thinking make sense from a governmental perspective?

joker_josue

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Quote from: Medusah on May 11, 2024, 10:43:12 AM

Quote from: DooMAD on May 11, 2024, 09:22:40 AM

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it? Because from what I see, there aren't any. We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem.

If there is no strategy yet, it is because one has not yet been achieved structurally.

I return to the torrent examples. In the 2000s they were heavily persecuted by the authorities, with dozens of people arrested for running torrent sites. But they did not disappear and today they continue to operate. Did the authorities simply stop worrying? Certainly not. It is true that the mode of consumption has changed, but even so, torrent sites have managed to structure themselves in a way that reduces or makes it more difficult to experience problems.

Something similar has to happen with mixers. It is true that in many cases, mixers have a direct impact on governments, due to tax avoidance. And this leads to them being much more active in this chase than they were with torrents. But, as long as mixes structurally cannot overcome these challenges, they will continue to have several problems.

Just like torrent, which is shared by users and not torrent sites, something similar needs to happen with mixers. Whether this is technically possible, I don't know. But, I believe that the solution goes this way.

Mr.right85

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Quote from: Hhampuz on May 07, 2024, 07:27:56 PM

Quote from: alani123 on May 07, 2024, 07:26:56 PM

As far as I know there's no official announcement of no-KYC services being banned in this forum. But perhaps it's coming?

It was not allowed for having too many similarities with a mixing service, the non-kyc part was not the issue.

My first thought when I noticed that to have been the case, am sure there are no such ban in place for exchanger services except it’s got some mixing qualities. No KYC services are some of the vitals in the cryptospace.

Quote from: Medusah on May 11, 2024, 10:43:12 AM

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on May 10, 2024, 03:00:38 AM

The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

Quote from: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/exchange-service-no-kycno-amlno-registration-btcxmrusdtcash-5479822

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Lmao. "We get your coins, we give you other users' coins, but please don't mistake us for a mixer". Right, got it. Cheesy

Our, it ain’t mixing because none of your coins does eventually gets back to you or should I say, it’s an exchange of other users coins for yours? Bro, that’s mixing. That’s the whole idea about mixing, not having your coins getting back to you, getting off those traces. It doesn’t matter how or what process in which this is archived, it’s still mixing.

Medusah

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 11, 2024, 01:22:21 PM

True enough, sadly. And most will pay the price in the end. But as long as enough of us persist in doing things the right way, some will still have a chance at freedom.

It's melancholic. This journey has freed my spirit, yet I can't help but be frustrated by this realization. It's human to feel that way, I guess.

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Quote from: Medusah on May 11, 2024, 12:52:33 PM

it is extremely difficult to convince people about adopting this approach.
(...)
And truth be told, most won't.

True enough, sadly. And most will pay the price in the end. But as long as enough of us persist in doing things the right way, some will still have a chance at freedom.

Medusah

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Quote from: DooMAD on May 11, 2024, 11:01:59 AM

Don't sign over your personal details for KYC. Don't acknowledge "taint" (and avoid using services which do). Don't give up ownership for the sake of convenience. Then they can't control you.

Alright, I'm already doing all of these, including pointing out people of their sleepwalking towards the edge of the cliff, but I still don't see sufficient progress. Particularly in an era where slight convenience is often traded for privacy, it is extremely difficult to convince people about adopting this approach. And, to be frank, I do not judge them; I've dedicated countless hours to grasping the importance of these ideas and practices myself. It would be unfair to expect someone else to be convinced without undergoing the same level of study. And truth be told, most won't.

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Quote from: Medusah on May 11, 2024, 10:43:12 AM

Quote from: DooMAD on May 11, 2024, 09:22:40 AM

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it? Because from what I see, there aren't any. We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem.

Mainly just point out to people when they're sleepwalking into subservience. The path of least resistance is often the one they want you to follow. Small acts of defiance can be powerful and limit the potential of nudge theory. If people don't allow themselves to be manipulated, they're more difficult to control. Don't sign over your personal details for KYC. Don't acknowledge "taint" (and avoid using services which do). Don't give up ownership for the sake of convenience. Then they can't control you.

Medusah

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on May 10, 2024, 03:00:38 AM

The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

Quote from: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/exchange-service-no-kycno-amlno-registration-btcxmrusdtcash-5479822

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Lmao. "We get your coins, we give you other users' coins, but please don't mistake us for a mixer". Right, got it. Cheesy

Quote from: NotATether on May 11, 2024, 03:34:57 AM

This is a bill by democrats. If they had proposed a law to stop anonymous payments to exchanges forever, it would've been shot down by republicans.

Democrats, Republicans, they're just two sides of the same coin when it comes to government. They both crave control, and given that only a small minority of their constituents prioritizes privacy, they'll recklessly implement Know Your Customer regulations without hesitation.

Quote from: DooMAD on May 11, 2024, 09:22:40 AM

And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

What strategies do you propose for resisting it? Because from what I see, there aren't any. We're simply a minority, and our strengths lie in writing and developing software, which is indeed powerful, but it doesn't entirely solve the problem.

DooMAD

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Quote from: NotATether on May 11, 2024, 03:34:57 AM

Why oh why has Bitcoin become partisan?

Because it's money, and money can be used as a form of control. How to control people is always a partisan issue. Much the the political manoeuvring at the moment is 'nudge theory'. Doing just enough to make people do what the authorities want. And people usually fall for that, so it will probably work unless we're actively opposing it.

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 11, 2024, 03:27:02 AM

Quote

We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers

I'm curious why they're proposing a ban for only two years, instead of forever.

Because they want to create the illusion that they are doing something productive, but we all know that no investigation or work group will ever happen into them.

This is a bill by democrats. If they had proposed a law to stop anonymous payments to exchanges forever, it would've been shot down by republicans.

Why oh why has Bitcoin become partisan?

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Quote from: examplens on May 10, 2024, 04:46:48 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on May 10, 2024, 02:45:03 AM

The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Quote from: theymos on December 01, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

"a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal,"

Unfortunately, their opinion is just as important as the opinion of anyone here on the forum.

For most people, you're right. But as long as I live in this country, the opinion of the Dutch authorities matters (whether I like it or not).

Quote

We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers

I'm curious why they're proposing a ban for only two years, instead of forever.

HEWRA

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Well all stuff aside, I have to admit that "tor-only", "non-kyc" and indirect mixing service seems quite shady from my perspective as a normal user of other exchanges.
I got to admit I miss times where most of the services did not require KYC to operate, but this three characteristics together doesn't feel quite safe to me Roll Eyes

examplens

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 10, 2024, 02:45:03 AM

The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Quote from: theymos on December 01, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

"a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal,"

Unfortunately, their opinion is just as important as the opinion of anyone here on the forum. We all know where these crazy rules come from, it's just a matter of how we got there
https://cryptodaily.co.uk/news-in-crypto/observers:u-s-members-of-congress-propose-two-year-ban-on-crypto-mixers

joker_josue

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 10, 2024, 02:45:03 AM

Quote from: joker_josue on May 09, 2024, 03:00:48 PM

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.

The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Quote from: theymos on December 01, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

"a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal,"

Yes it is true. It all depends on how it is used.

That's why I compared the current situation of mixes to torrent sites. Are they illegal? No. Can they be used? Yes. Could they contain illegal content? Yes. Does everyone use it for this purpose? No.

In the end, it all comes down to how the person will use the service and how the service is set up. And this is what can still be difficult to perceive in current mixes.

NotATether

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Quote from: LoyceV on May 10, 2024, 02:45:03 AM

Quote from: joker_josue on May 09, 2024, 03:00:48 PM

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.

The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Quote from: theymos on December 01, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

"a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal,"

Fun fact: Chain analysis bots have a separate category for "mixer" which they automatically classify as high-risk because they would otherwise have to, er, break CoinJoin, which we know they can't do. This is in addition to the other categories they have like gambling (??), sanctions evasion, government action.

I saw a stat on one homepage saying one of four wallets is suspicious.

If everyone were to use a mixer, it would break the model and make it 100% of funds being suspicious (therefore they cannot be suspicious) and it would force them to actually nab the criminals before they send them to a mixer.

FinneysTrueVision

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The service wasn’t very subtle about what they were trying to accomplish. This is what it said in their ANN thread:

Quote from: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/exchange-service-no-kycno-amlno-registration-btcxmrusdtcash-5479822

We get your dirty coins and give you clean coins. don't get me wrong, this is not a mixer. When you use our service you don't need to be worry about any blocking funds or
anything else, cause you will get clean coins from users which use legal exchanges.

Being a non-KYC exchange isn’t the problem, there are still a few services like that which are currently running campaigns. The MrStork account showed up around the time of the mixer ban, prior to that they don’t seem to have any online presence. It almost appears as if this exchange service was created solely for the purpose of bypassing the mixer ban.

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Quote from: NotATether on May 09, 2024, 12:29:00 PM

If this forum bans all non-KYC exchanges I guarantee you that members are going to be doing a 180 and praising once-reviled exchanges like Binance and Coinbase and stuff.

Only if they start a signature campaign here, which I don't expect.

Quote from: joker_josue on May 09, 2024, 03:00:48 PM

Whether you like it or not, when you talk about a mixing service, you automatically mean it as being used to move money obtained illegally, in order to lose track of it. Therefore, even if our use is not for this purpose, this is the tag that these services have before the authorities.

The Dutch authorities disagree with you:

Quote from: theymos on December 01, 2023, 06:45:25 AM

"a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal,"

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 09, 2024, 06:18:43 PM

that is the future and it will go back to a paper bag with cash in it when you want to move wealth on the sneak.

That's another thing they're slowly banning. The maximum amount you're allowed to pay in cash gets lower and lower. That's going to stop honest people, while criminals are breaking the law already.

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Quote from: Solosanz on May 08, 2024, 12:37:47 AM

Too bad, if Mr.Stork Exchange remove BTC withdrawal, their service would be fine. Tongue

Remove BTC > BTC, remove advertising aspect of improving privacy. The service will become a regular exchange service. It will not be that bad, if they want to advertise it in Bitcointalk.

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on May 07, 2024, 07:50:37 PM

Personally, i think all services that are rubbing shoulders with regulators (that we consider privacy focused) are going to be banned at some point. I am seeing the trend and we are headed for that direction. This will include no KYC exchanges, coins like monero etc.

Just a matter of time.

that is the future and it will go back to a paper bag with cash in it when you want to move wealth on the sneak.

crypto will not get used for sneak hidden wealth movement.

examplens

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Quote from: TryNinja on May 08, 2024, 11:14:59 AM

Quote from: theymos on May 08, 2024, 12:12:21 AM

So I'd lean toward banning this particular service even if they didn't meet the mixer definition. "Make your dirty coins clean" is not something that typical no-KYC exchanges advertise.

So basically, talking/marketing about cleaning coins = banned.

No-KYC service *can* be used to clean coins but doesn't publicly talk about this = ok

Is that it?

This confused me too, but based on what I saw with them, they are based on cleaning tainted coins. Check their overview of service
The next thing, they completely took over and copied the exch design, which casts a lot of doubt on the honesty of their service. The biggest part of the code is identical.

After all, I certainly wouldn't trust them and they seem like they are a high-risk scam. It is probably better that they are removed from the forum.

Topic: Are no-KYC services banned? (Read 719 times)