Topic: Are provably fair gambling sites really provable? - page 2. (Read 2972 times)

Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

Quote from: adaseb on May 27, 2017, 07:07:34 PM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

game-protect

hero member

Activity: 1344

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Yes in general if you gamble only on the reputable bitcoin sites listed in the various threads on bitcointalk you are usually safe. Because if one user gets scammed, he usually is the first to open a complaint on the forum and others will investigate the issue and the site might lose gamblers.

However the problem is most people don't use bitcointalk. One reason is that its only English based and there are hundreds of languages around the world. Another reason is that its too much reading. So most people just google "bitcoin gambling sites" and go to those top 10 lists with affiliate links and gamble there. However those casinos aren't properly vetted and might be scams like they were in the past.

There are some other problems:

- Most BitcoinTalk users do not check the Scam Accusations section.

- There are hundrets of threads in the Scam Accusation section and most players are not willing to read them all

- Even if a scam accusation is posted directly in the gambling site thread, a lot of potential customers will not read it!

Example: BITSPORT.BET SCAM STOLE 7 BITCOINS. He warned in their thread directly and now take a look how many bettors wait for their withdrawals! Roll Eyes

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 1723

Quote from: ultrloa on May 26, 2017, 01:44:57 AM

Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

Yes in general if you gamble only on the reputable bitcoin sites listed in the various threads on bitcointalk you are usually safe. Because if one user gets scammed, he usually is the first to open a complaint on the forum and others will investigate the issue and the site might lose gamblers.

However the problem is most people don't use bitcointalk. One reason is that its only English based and there are hundreds of languages around the world. Another reason is that its too much reading. So most people just google "bitcoin gambling sites" and go to those top 10 lists with affiliate links and gamble there. However those casinos aren't properly vetted and might be scams like they were in the past.

ultrloa

legendary

Activity: 2758

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Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

Quote from: emberbekas on May 25, 2017, 12:36:09 PM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 1723

Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

I am one of those who didnt know exactly how provably fair system works. This stuff is beyond my knowledge. But, I am very sure that there are a bunch of people out there who knows exactly how this stuff works. And if something went wrong with provably fair, I do believe most of them will inform it to us.

Basically it works like this

You are given a server seed that is unhashed like "ZYX", lets assume the hashing method here is SHA256.

The bet usually takes the server seed + client seed + nonce.

Client seed is usually also something randon but you can alter it anyway you want. Lets say client seed is "321".

Nonce usually refers to the bet # at the start of the session and just increments by 1, very similar to bitcoin block hashing.

So your roll result will be something like "ZYX3210", "ZYX3211", "ZYX3212", etc, etc. That number is usually in hex and modulus is taken and its rounded so you get the result like "98.35", "82.34", "24.42".

So now that you know this you think you can predict the outcome correct? No because the ZYX is the unhashed seed which you are not given until the end of the session. The hashed seed of "ZYX" is "ABC" and the "ABC" you are given. This is just given so you can verify that they never changed their unhashed seed on you.

emberbekas

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Activity: 1904

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

Quote from: Victorycoin on May 25, 2017, 12:05:56 PM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

I am one of those who didnt know exactly how provably fair system works. This stuff is beyond my knowledge. But, I am very sure that there are a bunch of people out there who knows exactly how this stuff works. And if something went wrong with provably fair, I do believe most of them will inform it to us.

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 1723

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Victorycoin

hero member

Activity: 1134

Merit: 517

Quote from: michkima on May 25, 2017, 09:53:22 AM

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.

Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

marlboroza

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How do we know that the roll was really "random" if we just rely on their checking system, which they also built.

You don't have to verify it on site. Use sha converter which can be found in google.

Quote from: michkima on May 25, 2017, 09:53:22 AM

What if that checker was also rigged to show that it was a legitimate roll?

^^^
Besides, I am sure you can find on every site "how it works" help tab.

michkima

hero member

Activity: 896

Merit: 514

Quote from: bajing on May 24, 2017, 02:18:54 PM

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

I have the same question since a long time ago. How do we know that the roll was really "random" if we just rely on their checking system, which they also built. What if that checker was also rigged to show that it was a legitimate roll? Wouldn't that be convenient for the gambling site?

spngebob

sr. member

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Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Yes I agree with you no one knows for sure about it because only a few people understand about server seeds and hash. Although some of them say that probably fair gambling sites is provable but im not believe 100%.

First of all it's not probably fair. It is provably fair.
There is huge difference. If site is provably fair it means you can really verify every your roll. If site is probably fair then you can't verify your rolls, you can only guess they didn't cheat you, but you will never know for sure.

It's very sad that legendary member with 3000+ posts, 60% posts in gambling section doesn't know that.

endenada

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yes ... some sites are more trusted some less .... but as i see, we have only dt members as recourse... probably they can explain us how and who guarantee fairness of the provably fair roll .... because, they give red tag and red flag to the sites and forumers ....
dt stands for: divine technology .. for my purposes .... nhhh ... i remember that i have pledged to users that they will roll, not owners

shield132

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Metawin.com - Truly the best casino ever

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

There were some websites which claimed to be provably fair but in reality they weren't, so owners accounts here got red tag from dt members. actmyname explained everything pretty well but I'll add that if you don't know thing well to understand provably fair of dicr, than choose most trusted dice websites, like for example bitsler, primedice and etc.

bajing

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