[Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 30.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4256

Merit: 8551

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Pmalek on May 08, 2023, 10:55:49 AM

Quote from: NotATether on May 08, 2023, 02:18:32 AM

...besides us, and people asking occasionally why are fees so high, I haven't seen any strong reaction or uproar from most of the factions of Bitcoin (developers, miners, and in particular users I'm expecting them to not have it, but perhaps they're not making enough noise and/or not doing so in the right places).

I wouldn't expect much noise from the miners. They are having the time of their life right now. At least those who weren't around during Bitcoin's last great bull run in 2017/2018.
To be completely fair, is the network not working as advertised? Yes, it is.
Do we like the current state of it? No, we don't.
Would it be pro-censorship to censor and restrict what we don't like? Yes, it would.

This is actually a good real-life example that Bitcoin's 1st layer in its current form isn't nearly ready to be a day-to-day payment method. Just imagine if there were no Ordinals and you substitute those transactions for normal BTC transactions of millions of new people who have started using BTC for everyday payments. That's how it would look on the mainnet. Half a million of unconfirmed transactions.

Which is why I have stated time and time again that scrypt algo with LTC and Doge mining is the superior method.

2x the LTC blocks per day
10x the Doge blocks per day

and since doge does not do ½ ings rewards to fees will never be terribly fucked.

BTC rewards 6.25btc fees 7btc during this stretch. a bad ratio that can not continue.

Remember if the 2 biggest pools are doing this now they are reaping the fees back.

Pmalek

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 7065

Quote from: NotATether on May 08, 2023, 02:18:32 AM

...besides us, and people asking occasionally why are fees so high, I haven't seen any strong reaction or uproar from most of the factions of Bitcoin (developers, miners, and in particular users I'm expecting them to not have it, but perhaps they're not making enough noise and/or not doing so in the right places).

I wouldn't expect much noise from the miners. They are having the time of their life right now. At least those who weren't around during Bitcoin's last great bull run in 2017/2018.
To be completely fair, is the network not working as advertised? Yes, it is.
Do we like the current state of it? No, we don't.
Would it be pro-censorship to censor and restrict what we don't like? Yes, it would.

This is actually a good real-life example that Bitcoin's 1st layer in its current form isn't nearly ready to be a day-to-day payment method. Just imagine if there were no Ordinals and you substitute those transactions for normal BTC transactions of millions of new people who have started using BTC for everyday payments. That's how it would look on the mainnet. Half a million of unconfirmed transactions.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: philipma1957 on May 08, 2023, 09:58:04 AM

You all can now see that the fee structure is easy to manipulate.

It's always been known that someone with enough money can increase transaction fees. The last block paid more than $200k in fees. At 10 minutes between blocks, that's $28M per day.
What really surprises me is that some people are willing to pay $50 to create Bitcoin dust, and that this happens hundreds of thousands of times per day. How much longer are they willing to burn their money at this rate?

Then again, if this current dust-ponzi-scam is created by the same people who profited billions of earliers scams (I'm thinking of the crazy ICO times), they have very deep pockets to pump and dump this thing.

NotATether

legendary

Activity: 1568

Merit: 6660

bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Screw it. I might as well use Zap or make my own LN wallet at this point - Electrum keeps erroring out when I try to create channels, and it is an unpleasant surprise that there are almost no desktop Lightning wallets.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4256

Merit: 8551

'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: Pmalek on May 07, 2023, 11:25:51 AM

Quote from: Cuenta Alternativa on May 07, 2023, 03:37:50 AM

Well, precisely thanks to you and others in a thread I opened (with my main account) about LN I learned that it is not necessary to open channels.

Quote from: LoyceV on April 16, 2023, 02:36:31 AM

It's kinda like using an exchange for sending transactions: they take care of everything. Except for fees on LN are much lower, and in general people entrust LN-wallets with much lower amounts than exchanges.
That's why I don't really worry about using custodial LN wallets: it's supposed to be used for small amounts only, and it's much more convenient than opening my own channels.

LoyceV is talking about custodial services where it's possible to use the channels those wallets created, instead of creating and operating your own. I think he used Blue Wallet which had a custodial LN service in the past. But that's no longer the case, and if you want to continue using Blue Wallet, you'll have to run your own node now. The custodial service is or has already shut down.

Looking at the mempool as we speak. This is awful. 400.000 unconfirmed transactions, and you need to pay around 200 sat/vByte to get into the next block.

Nope this is good. You all can now see that the fee structure is easy to manipulate.

Volgastallion

sr. member

Activity: 616

Merit: 314

CONTEST ORGANIZER

Quote from: LoyceV on May 08, 2023, 02:10:34 AM

Quote from: Volgastallion on May 07, 2023, 08:05:33 PM

The community and the developers of Bitcoin needs to move fast agains this shit.

We cant give them this freedom to do this so easily.

From Bitcoin's perspective, nothing is wrong. Fees are an open market and it's working "fine". Just not for normal Bitcoin users Sad

Yes, you have 100% of reason here.

Quote from: LoyceV on May 08, 2023, 02:10:34 AM

Quote

Maybe we can put a more higher fee if weight more than XXXX but i dont really know how to implement this.

That doesn't help: those transactions are tiny. My screenshot (yesterday) showed 328 bytes and 0.000612BTC fee. Miners must love this.

Quote

I also think they are exploting the "non censoring" politics of the BTC. they use this in their favour.

True. But can that really be changed without negative side effects?

Well, so lets take the "good side" of this, its a good time for the miners after some "hard" time for them. About the censoring, yes you cant make a change without side effects, and that its a main problem, we are in a cul de sac.

Quote from: NotATether on May 08, 2023, 02:18:32 AM

Yeah well the "community" of bitcoin appears to be on vacation right now or completely drowned out by BRC20 "To the moon" posts, because besides us, and people asking occasionally why are fees so high, I haven't seen any strong reaction or uproar from most of the factions of Bitcoin (developers, miners, and in particular users I'm expecting them to not have it, but perhaps they're not making enough noise and/or not doing so in the right places).

Up to now: radio silence from the mailing list and the news apart from the regular doomsaying about "fees going up, not much to see here".

Well, after this i have a good question for both of you (you ahve much more experience,knowledge and contacs than me), what its the possition of BTC maximalist about this?.

Because i think maybe some of them think something like:

- Well yes this can be good because we are showing the BTC blockchain its again the king and you can make whatever you want and more efficient than ETH, we are again back on top......

Let me explain again, maybe for us its a really bad take, but for some maybe its a good think.

NotATether

legendary

Activity: 1568

Merit: 6660

bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: Volgastallion on May 07, 2023, 08:05:33 PM

The community and the developers of Bitcoin needs to move fast agains this shit.

We cant give them this freedom to do this so easily.

Maybe we can put a more higher fee if weight more than XXXX but i dont really know how to implement this.

I also think they are exploting the "non censoring" politics of the BTC. they use this in their favour.

So they are giving a bad use not only at the BTC blockchain itself, but also they are making a really shit in community.

Its like BTC blockchain/community give you a opportunity to make something good and you use that to make the worst.

Yeah well the "community" of bitcoin appears to be on vacation right now or completely drowned out by BRC20 "To the moon" posts, because besides us, and people asking occasionally why are fees so high, I haven't seen any strong reaction or uproar from most of the factions of Bitcoin (developers, miners, and in particular users I'm expecting them to not have it, but perhaps they're not making enough noise and/or not doing so in the right places).

Up to now: radio silence from the mailing list and the news apart from the regular doomsaying about "fees going up, not much to see here".

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: NotATether on May 07, 2023, 11:44:04 AM

An alternative would be to set up a mining pool that only mines Bitcoin transactions.
~
Said pool will miss out tons on transaction fees will will be able to take pride in knowing that they are not screwing over the entire network that their business has been set up to serve.

Short-term, they'd lose out on profit from fees. Long-term, if this madness continues, they may end up running at a loss when competing miners can afford more hardware (because they make more profit) and push the difficulty higher.

Quote from: Volgastallion on May 07, 2023, 08:05:33 PM

The community and the developers of Bitcoin needs to move fast agains this shit.

We cant give them this freedom to do this so easily.

From Bitcoin's perspective, nothing is wrong. Fees are an open market and it's working "fine". Just not for normal Bitcoin users Sad

Quote from: LoyceV on May 03, 2023, 04:40:23 AM

Read the 2 posts above yours.

I've deleted your post. Read more, post less.

Volgastallion

sr. member

Activity: 616

Merit: 314

CONTEST ORGANIZER

The community and the developers of Bitcoin needs to move fast agains this shit.

We cant give them this freedom to do this so easily.

Maybe we can put a more higher fee if weight more than XXXX but i dont really know how to implement this.

I also think they are exploting the "non censoring" politics of the BTC. they use this in their favour.

So they are giving a bad use not only at the BTC blockchain itself, but also they are making a really shit in community.

Its like BTC blockchain/community give you a opportunity to make something good and you use that to make the worst.

NotATether

legendary

Activity: 1568

Merit: 6660

bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: LoyceV on May 03, 2023, 02:52:21 AM

Quote from: stompix on May 03, 2023, 02:12:05 AM

brc-20 tokens
~
Last 24 hours:
92,159 minted
+14,405,820 JAKE, +18,708,000 fuck, +89,760 subC, +430,100,000,000 sats, +9,552 data, 36,112 other
https://brc-20.io/

Crazy! I have no other word for it.
I've been wondering for a while what would be next after altcoins, ICOs, Forkcoins, DeFi and NFTs. I guess the next pyramid scheme is making up BS on the Bitcoin blockchain. As usual, a few people will get very rich out of this, and many people will lose money. All I can do is warn against it.
Do people not understand they need some centralized service to "use" their made-up tokens, which goes against everything Bitcoin stands for? So, when they think they have this, in reality they have only Bitcoin dust!

Hey miners, I have an idea: to profit off this madness, how about you only include Taproot transactions if they pay 10 times more than other transactions? Make them pay for it!

You already have an obscene amount of merit Tongue

but this is so freaking on the point that I decided to drop you +20.

An alternative would be to set up a mining pool that only mines Bitcoin transactions.

No Ordinals, no BRC-20, counterparty, RGB, nothing. No way to force the pool to accept these transactions as they should just be mined by some greedy pool instead.

Said pool will miss out tons on transaction fees will will be able to take pride in knowing that they are not screwing over the entire network that their business has been set up to serve.

Pmalek

legendary

Activity: 2730

Merit: 7065

Quote from: Cuenta Alternativa on May 07, 2023, 03:37:50 AM

Well, precisely thanks to you and others in a thread I opened (with my main account) about LN I learned that it is not necessary to open channels.

Quote from: LoyceV on April 16, 2023, 02:36:31 AM

It's kinda like using an exchange for sending transactions: they take care of everything. Except for fees on LN are much lower, and in general people entrust LN-wallets with much lower amounts than exchanges.
That's why I don't really worry about using custodial LN wallets: it's supposed to be used for small amounts only, and it's much more convenient than opening my own channels.

LoyceV is talking about custodial services where it's possible to use the channels those wallets created, instead of creating and operating your own. I think he used Blue Wallet which had a custodial LN service in the past. But that's no longer the case, and if you want to continue using Blue Wallet, you'll have to run your own node now. The custodial service is or has already shut down.

Looking at the mempool as we speak. This is awful. 400.000 unconfirmed transactions, and you need to pay around 200 sat/vByte to get into the next block.

apogio

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 1060

Quote from: Cuenta Alternativa on May 07, 2023, 03:37:50 AM

Well, precisely thanks to you and others in a thread I opened (with my main account) about LN I learned that it is not necessary to open channels.

You mean not necessary to open channels on your own? This is true, but in general, channels are mandatory in LN as far as I know

Cuenta Alternativa

member

Activity: 182

Merit: 80

Don Pedro Dinero alt account

Quote from: LoyceV on May 07, 2023, 03:29:12 AM

Correct. Either use LN (but funding a channel is expensive too) or some low-fee altcoin for small transactions.

Well, precisely thanks to you and others in a thread I opened (with my main account) about LN I learned that it is not necessary to open channels.

Quote from: LoyceV on April 16, 2023, 02:36:31 AM

It's kinda like using an exchange for sending transactions: they take care of everything. Except for fees on LN are much lower, and in general people entrust LN-wallets with much lower amounts than exchanges.
That's why I don't really worry about using custodial LN wallets: it's supposed to be used for small amounts only, and it's much more convenient than opening my own channels.

Quote from: LoyceV on May 07, 2023, 03:29:12 AM

ICOs (Initial Coin Offering). Before that we had altcoins, after that came Forks, NFT, DeFi and other get-rich-quick-schemes. Most of them have disappeared by now.

LMAO, yes, it was around that time that I registered on the forum.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: Cuenta Alternativa on May 07, 2023, 03:21:59 AM

So I understand this is a bubble that will end up like all bubbles: bursting. The bad thing is that until it bursts, which you never know when, you can no longer make small transactions, like $10 or $20, unless you want to pay $5 to transfer $10.

Correct. Either use LN (but funding a channel is expensive too) or some low-fee altcoin for small transactions.

Quote

What happened 6 years ago? Remind me please.

ICOs (Initial Coin Offering). Before that we had altcoins, after that came Forks, NFT, DeFi and other get-rich-quick-schemes. Most of them have disappeared by now.

Cuenta Alternativa

member

Activity: 182

Merit: 80

Don Pedro Dinero alt account

Quote from: LoyceV on May 07, 2023, 03:11:11 AM

That means they pay millions of dollars per day in fees, just because of FOMO and greed for a token someone created out of thin air? Have they learned nothing in the past 6 years? It's the exact same thing over and over again, just with a different name.

So I understand this is a bubble that will end up like all bubbles: bursting. The bad thing is that until it bursts, which you never know when, you can no longer make small transactions, like $10 or $20, unless you want to pay $5 to transfer $10.

What happened 6 years ago? Remind me please.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

I haven't seen fees this high in a very long time! Usually fees are lowest on a Sunday, now they've been going up continuously for the past 2 weeks:
Image loading...

I checked the lastest block:
Image loading...

Those 546 sat dust transactions all go to the same address. People are paying several Bitcoin per block now to spam their pump and dump token. That means they pay millions of dollars per day in fees, just because of FOMO and greed for a token someone created out of thin air? Have they learned nothing in the past 6 years? It's the exact same thing over and over again, just with a different name.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: hZti on May 05, 2023, 06:08:02 PM

2 Bitcoins just as fees per block make me wonder who is stupid enough to pay this, at the other side it however makes me optimistic that there will be enough mining reward also in the future when the standard block rewards go down.

We've seen much worse, see loyce.club/other/fees_sorted.txt:

Code:

block,fee
409008,29153275103
254642,20022600217
157235,17184649523
164384,12001300000
215936,11149075000
201731,10468299211
224588,9480616665
353672,8621369888
157077,8597417976
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258546,8131862532
258562,8115901183
470189,7965735309
164382,6752500000
209782,5900334758
260343,5408455165
446633,5103767145
258555,5017993477
203662,4611470000
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268567,3671549047
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358850,2522041390
192869,2519215000
219303,2518711096
268220,2476713095
200901,2394107500
231488,2300356400
164616,2254000000
229660,2186628100
268435,2158017196
273640,2020170295
268361,2014346955
251140,1986720000
164383,1911693746
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338589,1903382408
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482509,500834837
502546,500830601

Some of those high fees are caused by mistakes (and some were actually paid back by the mining pool), some happened a long time ago at much lower Bitcoin prices, and some (especially around block 500000) happened at the end op 2017 when fees were the highest ever:
block 500521: 13.7 BTC in fees.

philipma1957

legendary

Activity: 4256

Merit: 8551

'The right to privacy matters'

You guys don't understand the problem is BTC has a fee structure that is ripe to exploit.

I wrote a thread on one way a major pool can do it years ago. You are watching it in action disguised as ordinals.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-all-miners-need-to-mine-on-a-pool-that-pays-them-the-tx-fees-2634505

you are seeing a variation of my thread above.

If I am a major pool getting 30% of the blocks I can boost the fees and profit by it.

fees were about 0.15 btc a block

they are now 10x 1.50 a block.

foundry and ant pool can do it and make a profit .

They pull 50% of the blocks.

so pay coins to jack fees and collect the higher fees.

if fees were .15
and fees are now 1.5

you went from .15 x 144 = 21.6 coins in fees
to 1.5 x 144 = 216 coins in fees

every day

of which they collect 50% of those extra fees forcing the other people to pay more.

best of all they do not need to spend a lot to crowd out other transactions.

they cut a deal and allow a deal to someone to pay say 1 sat per byte to fill blocks

they shut some of their own miners down and boom 1-2 coin fees per blocks.

They actually turn a profit doing it.

Fee structure is still flawed and no good effort has happen to fix it yet.

And here is a clue banning ordinals and nfts will not fix the issue.

hZti

hero member

Activity: 1022

Merit: 642

Magic

2 Bitcoins just as fees per block make me wonder who is stupid enough to pay this, at the other side it however makes me optimistic that there will be enough mining reward also in the future when the standard block rewards go down.

Generally I think to many exchanges simply rip off their customers by charging high withdrawal fees and the spam the network with high fee transactions. Maybe it would be wise if everyone will try to do transactions at the most economical rate, because I hope the network is growing and fees are already at a point where I feel they should not rise more.

tranthidung

legendary

Activity: 2310

Merit: 4085

Farewell o_e_l_e_o

Quote from: LoyceV on May 05, 2023, 05:18:05 AM

And if it's meaningless to Bitcoin, why do this on an expensive blockchain?

Bitcoin blockchain is less expensive than Ethereum blockchain. It usually gives cheaper transaction fee than Ethereum blockchain. It is very far since a last time I saw people complained that they had to spend $50 or $100 in transaction fee for their Bitcoin transactions. However, it was repeatedly reported with transactions on Ethereum blockchain.

Comparison in their average transaction fees: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfees-btc-eth.html#alltime

Quote

It makes me think they're only using Bitcoin to profit off it's popularity.

I agree with this point. Those shit BRC-20 meme coins try to exploit the popularity of Bitcoin.

Quote

And the people who are throwing their money at it have no idea what they're buying.

It is true too. They simply look for quick rich train and hope on BRC-20 meme train without knowing basics about Bitcoin and short lifespans of meme coins.

Topic: [Aug 2022] Mempool empty! Use this opportunity to Consolidate your small inputs! - page 30. (Read 88281 times)