[BCN] Bytecoin. Secure, private, untraceable since 2012 - page 184.

smooth

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Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 05:35:58 PM

Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 05:31:21 PM

Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 04:06:14 PM

*unless you have access to all available data which nobody in this instance does since the origins of BCN do not reside on the Internet but rather the Darknet.

Exactly. You don't have access to all available data, so you can't correctly say that it isn't a scam. The farthest you could go is that it might not be a scam (and that's a long shot).

Ahhh quite so… and you cannot correctly say that it is a scam, but you always bloody well do.
In this situation the absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence (black swan).

There are aspects of it which certainly are a scam, such as the fake trading (which I've investigated and verified for myself), or the premine, which exists by definition since the mining occurred before it was made public.

That does not prove every aspect of the prevailing theories on the backstory, as I have acknowledged before, but it does prove at least some element of a scam, and enough for responsible people to want to warn away all but the most careful expert traders who might still be able to make money on the short term market action.

As for the backstory, I and nearly every impartial intelligent observer has concluded that the theory of fabrication is more likely that the theory of a conspiracy of silence on the darknet (and beyond) that very experienced darknet users and experts have never heard of.

Still I would acknowledge and agree that more likely, even far more likely, is not 100% certainty.

child_harold

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Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 05:31:21 PM

Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 04:06:14 PM

*unless you have access to all available data which nobody in this instance does since the origins of BCN do not reside on the Internet but rather the Darknet.

Exactly. You don't have access to all available data, so you can't correctly say that it isn't a scam. The farthest you could go is that it might not be a scam (and that's a long shot).

Ahhh quite so… and you cannot correctly say that it is a scam, but you always bloody well do.
In this situation the absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence (black swan).

Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 12:20:37 PM

Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 11:59:35 AM

preachy stuff putting me to sleep

any comments on 1.0.6?

And?

smooth

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Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 04:06:14 PM

The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence*.
Just because a black swan has never been sighted does not mean to say one does not exist.
Just because a crime scene has no fingerprints it does not mean to say the crime was committed by a man with no fingers.

The BCN Team have better reason than anybody else in crypto today to remain secretive and it is completely fitting that there should be no evidence whatsoever.

There are search engines on the darknet. There are people involved in cryptocurrency (and I don't mean BCN) who have been involved in the Darknet probably longer than you even knew it existed. None of them have ever heard of it.

There are claims that it was used as a major transactional currency at an international research institution. Such entities do not conduct their business on the darknet, so if this actually happened there would be accessible evidence of it. None of that happened.

Finally, you say "The BCN Team" have reasons to remain secretive. In stating that you suggest a premine since if only "The BCN Team" were involved, that's a premine by definition. If others were involved and had mined, traded, and invested in the coin, then some evidence of that would exist. To suggest otherwise is to claim the existence a large, successful, conspiracy of secrecy, outside The BCN Team (and against the interests of the those alleged outside investors I might add) to keep all evidence of the alleged existence a secret. That is implausible.

All of this adds up to one thing and you know very well what it is.

Quote

In other words, Bytecoin is not a scam.

Even if you doubt the reasonable evidence and arguments that convince most intelligent reasonable people who look at it, you certainly don't know that it ins't a scam. How could you?

Quote

*unless you have access to all available data which nobody in this instance does since the origins of BCN do not reside on the Internet but rather the Darknet.

Exactly. You don't have access to all available data, so you can't correctly say that it isn't a scam. The farthest you could go is that it might not be a scam (and that's a long shot).

child_harold

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The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence*.
Just because a black swan has never been sighted does not mean to say one does not exist.
Just because a crime scene has no fingerprints it does not mean to say the crime was committed by a man with no fingers.

The BCN Team have better reason than anybody else in crypto today to remain secretive and it is completely fitting that there should be no evidence whatsoever.

In other words, Bytecoin is not a scam.

*unless you have access to all available data which nobody in this instance does since the origins of BCN do not reside on the Internet but rather the Darknet.

NASdaq

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Quote from: ABISprotocol on August 02, 2015, 03:51:50 AM

I don't know if anyone has kept track of this, but from at least page 180 to the current (about page 235 or so) of this particular bitcointalk thread, almost every single post has been someone hurling insults. That equates to about 55 pages of just pure bitcointalk bile, imho. It's terrible to see, and I've avoided commenting on it, until now.

What I see a lot of has been Monero supporters creating insults about BCN, and then insulting BCN or the development team, or the people who created BCN, or the people now use BCN, or some of the above, or all of the above.

Quite frankly I find this very immature and a huge waste of time. I have nothing against Monero or Monero developers or Monero users. I do, however, find that the claims being made (by Monero folk against BCN, etc.) are not only exaggerated, but have involved a great deal of speculation and assumption, and a great deal of wasted energy (considering how much Monero could benefit if the passion of some folks which has been invested in hours and hours of argumentation while hijacking this thread, would have been instead spent in Monero development).

I personally feel that this discussion wouldn't have been amplified to the degree it has been unless BCN supporters were also involved, which is to say, it takes two (or more) to tango, and so as time goes on, the constant claims and insults being hurled by the anti-BCN contingent were then met with various arguments and propositions by a pro-BCN contingent, and then there were counterclaims, and then so on and so forth, and the levels and layers of argumentation seem to have created a kind of an environment in which someone must "win" by some higher logic, but in reality the vast amount of hours that people have spent on the campaigns and plain of arguments are just a huge waste.

To me, I think of it like this:

1) Do you like your coin? Great, go take part in it. It is a free market. Do what you will.

2) Do you think a coin is troublesome or needs review? Then review its source code. (If it is not open source you shouldn't be using it because you are unable to see its repository.) If you don't know code, learn - there's lot's of free coursework available (codecademy.com, khanacademy.org, etc.)

3) Don't like a coin? You don't have to spend hundreds of hours trying to convince people that they shouldn't use it. Just don't use it yourself.

4) Like a coin, but feel like something is missing? Take part in its development. Make the world a better place.

Thanks for listening.

I agree with you that this CN/BCN 'scam' debate gets boring after a while to those who know the details, have done their own investigating and have made up their mind, but what about new people? I know in my case I only became aware of the "allegations" against bytecoin from reading forum posts, and I'm grateful to those who did that. I draw a distinction between abuse and criticism, and what smooth and others are doing is a public service if it makes newbies stop and think before they invest. Every newbie who gets scammed and loses money damages the whole crypto community, and as a community it's down to individuals warning other individuals.

Have you ever seen a traffic cop at an accident? He/she will literally warn every car that drives by to be careful - every car! If you're watching the traffic cop it probably gets boring very quickly, but every new car that approaches the scene of the accident is not aware of the danger, and the fact that 100 cars before them were warned to be careful doesn't help them.

A moderated thread to avoid debate on this issue is NOT a good idea!!

tolikkk

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www.pumpmycoin.com

Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 05:48:49 AM

Quote from: tolikkk on August 02, 2015, 05:41:34 AM

i just setup the wallet, but there get my payment ID?

you dont need a pyment id to receive + new 1.0.6 introduces multi-addressing and gets rid of/deprecates payment id's if ive understood correctly. payment id's were for merchant/exchange use and with 1.0.6 are no longer needed.

there get link 1.0.6, i can't see

child_harold

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Buying or not Bytecoin is a moot point because people cant stop others from doing it, the history and lack of thereof has been laid on the table, let the wise decide.

child_harold is an attention-whore sockpuppetear hiding behind Bytecoin to troll Monero and I doubt if even the BCN crew have any respect for cockroaches like him.

You Monero guys really get on my tits.

Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 11:59:35 AM

preachy stuff putting me to sleep

any comments on 1.0.6?

smooth

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Quote from: child_harold on August 02, 2015, 11:46:51 AM

stuff, mostly made up and/or mistaken

tldr: child_harold bought some BCN at lower prices and wants to see it pumped as high as possible before he gets out.

Enjoy, child_harold. I respect a good trade.

child_harold

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A Letter to the Church of Monero and Revd. smooth

I refer to you as a Churh because in the absence of evidence or proof it is only the strength of your convictions and faith which holds you resolute in your beliefs (The Monero View of the World. )

I am unswayed by your Religion and remain open-minded on the subject of Bytecoin: its past, present and future. I write the following in entertainment of your unsubstantiated claims regarding the origins of cryptonote and bytecoin.

- Cryptonote and Bytecoin have dramatically changed crypto-currency forever by innovating a revolutionary new scheme for sending anonymous transactions.

- It is completely unnecessary to "premine" 80% of the world's first anonymous digital currency to make a fortune.

- It is not typical of "scammers" to innovate such powerful technology and continue to innovate it in the face of such vociferous opposition (i.e Monero).

- Monero came into existence because of "scam" concerns and even without evidence is adamant they are correct. A healthy Bytecoin free from suspicion is a threat to Monero and it is no coincidence the Church of Monero continue to spread their propaganda even today.

- Not content to demonise the BCN devs Monero goes out of its way to shit on the individuals whose code they forked and whose idea they were inspired by, despite the fact that BCN devs continue to develop bytecoin and the cryptonote protocol.

- The BCN product makes Monero look like pants, and at this point it's more than a GUI wallet separating them

- Owning 80% of a CN coin supply gives you a good chance of de-anoning tx's. This is a weakness of all CN coins which the BCN devs would have been the first to appreciate. BUT if you sell say 20% of your 80% "premine" the odds drop significantly. One cannot scam money without reducing the chances of de-anoning.

- The only way to prevent govs/3-letter orgs/malicious parties de-anoning a CN coin is to ensure a large amount of coin supply (50% would suffice) never goes to market or is made available for public mining.

- Lots of bytecoin have been sold. I am satisfied that no single entity owns 80%.

- A fair distro solution cannot guarantee that attackers dont get their hands on large amounts of currency.

- The Revd. smooth might be your shepherd. Don't become his sheep. You can trust your preacher?

- You dont have to invest in bytecoin to profit from its innovations (they just updated the cryptonote protocol FFS!). If Monero shuts up maybe they'll learn a few things and find some more code to fork.

- The BCN story is verified by the Cryptonote Team at cryptonote.org

Now… is there any chance we can discuss some of the new features in 1.0.6 and the updates to the CN protocol? Jebus!

smooth

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 09:28:24 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Two premined coins why is Bytecoin growing so much faster than Dash, is it the working anon?

While BCN was, Dash was not really premined, it was instamined (supposedly accidentally but you decide) and the only reason for the "growing so much faster" is that BCN was down to near-zero value with nearly-all of the coins owned by insiders and is now being pumped.

'pumped' for half a year, really?

Yes.

As long as insiders own nearly all of the coins, which I believe to be the case, then there is no reason they can't create whatever price trend they want. It's like turning a dial.

illodin

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Quote from: smooth on August 02, 2015, 09:26:29 AM

There is no reason anyone associated with this project would have any reluctance to lie to you since they have been doing it for over a year now.

Have they explicitly stated at some point already that they are NOT with the law enforcement or government?

Something can also be inferred from the amount of time it takes to get a "no" answer, they might feel the need to discuss it first with their superiors and it's Sunday after all.

smooth

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Two premined coins why is Bytecoin growing so much faster than Dash, is it the working anon?

While BCN was, Dash was not really premined, it was instamined (supposedly accidentally but you decide) and the only reason for the BCN "growing so much faster" is that BCN was down to near-zero value with nearly-all of the coins owned by insiders and is now being pumped.

smooth

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Quote from: illodin on August 02, 2015, 06:35:17 AM

When BCN says the coin was "released" in 2012, perhaps what they really mean is that they started the coin back then and the "community" mining it was just the developers and few of their friends / people helping out. So it could be true that the coin was launched in 2012 but there was no public announcement of any kind. Perhaps they started the blockchain and the mining just to test how it works (yes they could've used testnet but BCN being new codebase maybe they didn't have that functionality) and kept it going while developing and doing the java => c++ migration. The development just took a lot longer than they estimated and all of a sudden they realized they had mined +80% of the coin.

And when it became the time to actually announce the project to the world, the greed kicked in. In addition, if friends, family, and other people who were involved in the beginning were holding a good amount of coins, there would've been a lot of pressure to not reset the blockchain as they would've felt being let down. All this could've led to faking the story and the mess BCN is today.

That could be true, except that it's not.

It also doesn't explain the crippled miner or the faked blockchain. On a normal coin with a nominally fair launch you could imagine a crippled miner being done to give the developer an edge at the start when there is a lot of mining (or not releasing GPU miners right away or any of the million variations of that which have been done by various coins). But when the coin is already 80%+ mined by insiders and mining is down to a relative pittance there is no reason to cripple a miner like that.

The only reason for the crippled miner was to present a story of a low hash rate spread over a lot of miners over a long period of time, when in actuality a non-crippled miner was used to create the entire blockchain over a very short time on a few machines.

Quote

Or, it is a honey pot.

Ullo, are you or have you been - or anyone else in BCN or CN teams to the best of your knowledge - working with or in co-operation with any law enforcement agencies or national security authorities on the subject of crypto currencies? If the answer is yes, but you are not allowed to answer, then don't, and we will know the answer and you haven't broken your gag order nor lied to us (sting operation / entrapment could get the case dismissed in some jurisdictions so it's in your best interest to not answer if you have to lie).

There is no reason anyone associated with this project would have any reluctance to lie to you since they have been doing it for over a year now.

EDIT: ROFL moderated ANN thread. Good luck with that.

boolberry

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Quote from: Blazin8888 on July 31, 2015, 06:05:59 PM

Can we all just be productive? Harold relax youre out of line. He has every right to be critical. He was not spreading BS at all.

Explain this premain scam issue as ive heard more ppl than just him say something about it

Productive:

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We are mindful of scams, copyright violations, and offensive subjects and reserve the right to refuse any coin on our platform. In some cases, we may request a legal review of your coin before being listed.

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It will be hard for BCN to pass the Bittrex review to gain a listing. After all the scams over the past few years there are more cautious now, particularly in cases with allegations of faked blockchains and huge premines. Luckily there are already several high quality CryptoNote coins already traded on Bittrex without all the drama

ABISprotocol

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ABISprotocol on Gist

This thread has gone past the point of much utility. Not sure how this is done but this topic should be locked and self moderated because this really has been trolled to death and hijacked everywhere.

EDIT: I think this topic should be locked and moderated, and the people who have hijacked this thread can then set up their own thread which they would then title "BCN is Horrible Because" or something, and they could then post on it all day long to their heart's content.
This is (sort of) what happened in Blackcoin, a situation in which cards were advertised and huge arguments exploded that made the thread a useless place for people to seek help or get introduced:
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackcoin/comments/23xnak/lock_the_topic_on_bitcointalk_and_make_a_self/
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackcoin/comments/24ycze/bitcointalk_thread_has_been_locked/
They locked their thread and there ended up being two threads.

At that point, a new thread could be created for bitcointalk for BCN (also moderated, etc) and linked to from the BCN homepage which could then point to it as the formal bitcointalk thread.

I strongly recommend anyone who is serious about BCN register at bytecointalk and find out more about what's going on there.

https://bytecointalk.org/

(You'll note that I have some posts there and a Change request proposal for BCN. I support BCN, and I think it provides a model in terms of its evolution and development, that other currencies will soon need to follow.)

As for me, my feelings on the subject which has been beat to death in the last 55 pages of thread can be neatly summarized here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12031620

Cheers,

ABISprotocol

ABISprotocol

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Quote from: illodin on August 02, 2015, 06:35:17 AM

When BCN says the coin was "released" in 2012, perhaps what they really mean is that they started the coin back then and the "community" mining it was just the developers and few of their friends / people helping out. So it could be true that the coin was launched in 2012 but there was no public announcement of any kind. Perhaps they started the blockchain and the mining just to test how it works (yes they could've used testnet but BCN being new codebase maybe they didn't have that functionality) and kept it going while developing and doing the java => c++ migration. The development just took a lot longer than they estimated and all of a sudden they realized they had mined +80% of the coin.

And when it became the time to actually announce the project to the world, the greed kicked in. In addition, if friends, family, and other people who were involved in the beginning were holding a good amount of coins, there would've been a lot of pressure to not reset the blockchain as they would've felt being let down. All this could've led to faking the story and the mess BCN is today.

Or, it is a honey pot.

Ullo, are you or have you been - or anyone else in BCN or CN teams to the best of your knowledge - working with or in co-operation with any law enforcement agencies or national security authorities on the subject of crypto currencies? If the answer is yes, but you are not allowed to answer, then don't, and we will know the answer and you haven't broken your gag order nor lied to us (sting operation / entrapment could get the case dismissed in some jurisdictions so it's in your best interest to not answer if you have to lie).

Here is another example of the lack of logic and reason that I see here.

A) No-one is required to answer your ridiculous questions or respond to your accusations.

B) If no-one does answer to your accusation, that does not mean they are guilty of anything. All it means is that you have constructed your sentences in such a way, and with such syntax and structure, to attempt to imply that there is guilt if someone doesn't respond to you to answer the questions as to whether they are "working with or in co-operation with any law enforcement agencies or national security authorities on the subject of crypto currencies."

C) By your failure in logic, we should believe that anyone involved with BCN should be compelled to answer your demand to rush forward to answer to your ridiculous accusation, and that if they do not, then there must, by your extreme assertions, be a "gag order" that would prevent one or another of us from answering you.

These utter failures of logic and reason are poison in this bitcointalk forum. Since you exert yourself so fancifully in order to make yourself look foolish, may I suggest removing yourself from this bitcointalk thread and doing it in a forum specific to a currency that interests you more, so that it would be more productive for you and the developers that you are interested in working with?

illodin

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When BCN says the coin was "released" in 2012, perhaps what they really mean is that they started the coin back then and the "community" mining it was just the developers and few of their friends / people helping out. So it could be true that the coin was launched in 2012 but there was no public announcement of any kind. Perhaps they started the blockchain and the mining just to test how it works (yes they could've used testnet but BCN being new codebase maybe they didn't have that functionality) and kept it going while developing and doing the java => c++ migration. The development just took a lot longer than they estimated and all of a sudden they realized they had mined +80% of the coin.

And when it became the time to actually announce the project to the world, the greed kicked in. In addition, if friends, family, and other people who were involved in the beginning were holding a good amount of coins, there would've been a lot of pressure to not reset the blockchain as they would've felt being let down. All this could've led to faking the story and the mess BCN is today.

Or, it is a honey pot.

Ullo, are you or have you been - or anyone else in BCN or CN teams to the best of your knowledge - working with or in co-operation with any law enforcement agencies or national security authorities on the subject of crypto currencies? If the answer is yes, but you are not allowed to answer, then don't, and we will know the answer and you haven't broken your gag order nor lied to us (sting operation / entrapment could get the case dismissed in some jurisdictions so it's in your best interest to not answer if you have to lie).

child_harold

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Quote from: tolikkk on August 02, 2015, 05:41:34 AM

i just setup the wallet, but there get my payment ID?

you dont need a pyment id to receive + new 1.0.6 introduces multi-addressing and gets rid of/deprecates payment id's if ive understood correctly. payment id's were for merchant/exchange use and with 1.0.6 are no longer needed.

tolikkk

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www.pumpmycoin.com

i just setup the wallet, but there get my payment ID?

ABISprotocol

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ABISprotocol on Gist

I don't know if anyone has kept track of this, but from at least page 180 to the current (about page 235 or so) of this particular bitcointalk thread, almost every single post has been someone hurling insults. That equates to about 55 pages of just pure bitcointalk bile, imho. It's terrible to see, and I've avoided commenting on it, until now.

What I see a lot of has been Monero supporters creating insults about BCN, and then insulting BCN or the development team, or the people who created BCN, or the people now use BCN, or some of the above, or all of the above.

Quite frankly I find this very immature and a huge waste of time. I have nothing against Monero or Monero developers or Monero users. I do, however, find that the claims being made (by Monero folk against BCN, etc.) are not only exaggerated, but have involved a great deal of speculation and assumption, and a great deal of wasted energy (considering how much Monero could benefit if the passion of some folks which has been invested in hours and hours of argumentation while hijacking this thread, would have been instead spent in Monero development).

I personally feel that this discussion wouldn't have been amplified to the degree it has been unless BCN supporters were also involved, which is to say, it takes two (or more) to tango, and so as time goes on, the constant claims and insults being hurled by the anti-BCN contingent were then met with various arguments and propositions by a pro-BCN contingent, and then there were counterclaims, and then so on and so forth, and the levels and layers of argumentation seem to have created a kind of an environment in which someone must "win" by some higher logic, but in reality the vast amount of hours that people have spent on the campaigns and plain of arguments are just a huge waste.

To me, I think of it like this:

1) Do you like your coin? Great, go take part in it. It is a free market. Do what you will.

2) Do you think a coin is troublesome or needs review? Then review its source code. (If it is not open source you shouldn't be using it because you are unable to see its repository.) If you don't know code, learn - there's lot's of free coursework available (codecademy.com, khanacademy.org, etc.)

3) Don't like a coin? You don't have to spend hundreds of hours trying to convince people that they shouldn't use it. Just don't use it yourself.

4) Like a coin, but feel like something is missing? Take part in its development. Make the world a better place.

Thanks for listening.

Topic: [BCN] Bytecoin. Secure, private, untraceable since 2012 - page 184. (Read 1070344 times)