Don't feed the troll... They must be working in 24h shifts.
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #oyjKTFht0rlEe1sx
Topic: [BFL] List of Lies - page 6. (Read 8523 times)
In addition, if you want to be technical (and I know you guys love being technical), Bitmain initially promised 0.68 J/GH on chip, which is meaningless. Joules is an energy measurement and is usually referenced over time, and there's no time measuement included. ANY manufacturer out there could make the same claim and it would not be a lie. While it might take 1 manufacturer .5 sec to reach .68J/GH, it might take another manufacturer 3 seconds. But that's only misleading, so you'd probably discount it being an untruth.
That is simply not how it works.
1 Joule = 1 Watt/second
So, you're saying KnC shipped in mid-August? Damn, I must have missed that in all the Avalon whining in the KnC thread.
KNC prototype working at the time of statement. And since they were comparing preorders you need to include hashfast/cointerra.Quote
Deceit is intentional, meaning it was originally posted with the intent to deceive. Procrastination/laziness is a more accurate description and is hardly deceit. It is a bad business model, but you and so many others seem to think everything needs to be perfect.
It is clearly intentional when the monarch page is updated multiple times yet they intentionally chose not to update the things that would make them look bad (being realistic).
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#2, I can technically give this to you as ASICMiner had thousands of those little USB stick toys they sold. Considering they were pfft for hashing power and vastly overpriced (2BTC back in May and would have earned less than .7BTC as of today.) Discounting AM though, the statement was true when made.
Asicminer also sold something like 75,000 8GH blades along with those little overpriced usbs.
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#6, So, back in August KnC had a working 1st gen ASIC was was developing a 2nd Gen?
Correct.
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Your failing to account for time means that you think this is still accurate to this day, but Bitmain was not around posting about a $3/GH claim back in August. What was true in August is no longer true today, if the statement had read: "The Competition at least $ 17.50 /GH, AND WILL NEVER GET LOWER", then you could indeed say it was a lie.
Do you understand false advertising? That is like saying the ford model T is the fastest car in the world because at one point it may have been. You cannot use the argument "they never touched it since announcement" because they clearly edited the price of their monarch but forgot to update the price of the competition literally pixels apart.
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#10, Until you have a fully working 600GH monarch in hand, you cannot call this a lie. While you pulled the .6 number from their product page, their forum posting says:
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Power & Performance better than expected
The initial power consumption numbers for Monarch are in and they're about 20% better than anticipated, meaning we expect the Monarch to consume 0.45W/GH at the chip level. This translates to about 300W per 600GH at the wall. Chip performance of all systems is as good as or better than predicted. To put this in perspective, this makes the Monarch chip nearly twice as power efficient as compared to our 28nm competition whose products operate between 0.9 and 1.0w per GH at the wall.
.45 at chip level = 270 watts which leaves 80 watts available to reach their 350W listing on the product page. So much for your 'chips alone are .6w' statement.The initial power consumption numbers for Monarch are in and they're about 20% better than anticipated, meaning we expect the Monarch to consume 0.45W/GH at the chip level. This translates to about 300W per 600GH at the wall. Chip performance of all systems is as good as or better than predicted. To put this in perspective, this makes the Monarch chip nearly twice as power efficient as compared to our 28nm competition whose products operate between 0.9 and 1.0w per GH at the wall.
You are right that I cannot guarantee it is a lie but I would be willing to bet on it. There is a 1% chance in my mind they meet 350W @ 600GH. I will add it to a separate section.
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I think Avalon wins as worst myself, but that's a judgement call due to the 800k chip fiasco.
Fun fact: Avalon gave full btc refunds for a 2? month delay. BFL refused all refunds for an 8+ month delay along with failure to meet advertised specs.
In addition, if you want to be technical (and I know you guys love being technical), Bitmain initially promised 0.68 J/GH on chip, which is meaningless. Joules is an energy measurement and is usually referenced over time, and there's no time measuement included. ANY manufacturer out there could make the same claim and it would not be a lie. While it might take 1 manufacturer .5 sec to reach .68J/GH, it might take another manufacturer 3 seconds. But that's only misleading, so you'd probably discount it being an untruth.
There's one major thing missing from this list... a timeline as to when each comment was written. The OP seriously seems to think that these are current claims, when several of them were made months ago. Call it was it really is, a lack of updating the website with current information.
A timeline is irrelevant because most of these statements were made after KNC shipped and began working on their next gen chip.
Please don't pretend the lack of updating the site with accurate information is anything but deceit. They seem to have no problem updating other parts of the site and are incredibly active on these forums and their own.
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I challenge the OP with this: Show me an ASIC company that has not told ANY lies. Let's not focus on one, let's put them all on the table. Otherwise, this is simply another hate thread intended to incite riot because the OP is just another troll.
Challenge accepted and completed: Bitmain.
We don't need to put them all on the table because this is a thread to focus on BFL. I am not going to argue that every asic manufacturer is perfect in fact most are the complete opposite.
I think just about everyone would agree BFL is competing for worst asic manufacturer. (tied with hashfast currently)
Deceit is intentional, meaning it was originally posted with the intent to deceive. Procrastination/laziness is a more accurate description and is hardly deceit. It is a bad business model, but you and so many others seem to think everything needs to be perfect.
Yes, I can see it's 'purpose' is to focus on BFL, couldn't use one of the 50+ threads already out there, had to create another to add to the mess.
As to the trolling part, #1 This one is a tough call, as your examples didn't have existing product (except for Avalon) when it was made, but the problem comes about with companies underpowering chips to reach those power specs. Until there is a fully working Monarch in hand running at the stated 600GH to see actualy power specs, you technically cannot claim this a lie. They were shooting for .7W/GH at the time of conception and now it looks like they will beat that, but you nitpick other statements to call it a lie.
#2, I can technically give this to you as ASICMiner had thousands of those little USB stick toys they sold. Considering they were pfft for hashing power and vastly overpriced (2BTC back in May and would have earned less than .7BTC as of today.) Discounting AM though, the statement was true when made.
#3, On one of my visits to KC, I noticed their board noting a record 1 day shipping of over 1000 units and the weekly record was over 4000. At that point in time, there was NO other ASIC manufacturer that had that much production capability, and unless you again count the little USB sticks, which wouldn't be put together in a workplace like BFL has but in a much bigger/vastly automated place, it's doubtful any of the current companies could match this output.
#4. Your failing to account for time means that you think this is still accurate to this day, but Bitmain was not around posting about a $3/GH claim back in August. What was true in August is no longer true today, if the statement had read: "The Competition at least $ 17.50 /GH, AND WILL NEVER GET LOWER", then you could indeed say it was a lie.
#5, back in August, 65nm technology WAS powering the majority of the bitcoin network.
#6, So, back in August KnC had a working 1st gen ASIC was was developing a 2nd Gen?
#7, AM, really?!? Wow. You love to throw Bitmain out there, but you can only point to Nov when they started posting on the forums. Considering they were 'founded in 1Q 2013' and nothing was heard until November, you cannot in truth say they had no delay, you can only state that they worked out their delays BEFORE announcing anything.
#8, Technically a lie because they were overly optimistic about their foundry/testing timeline.
#9, You missed the word plan. True, they suck at timelines, but that isn't lying.
#10, Until you have a fully working 600GH monarch in hand, you cannot call this a lie. While you pulled the .6 number from their product page, their forum posting says:
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Power & Performance better than expected
The initial power consumption numbers for Monarch are in and they're about 20% better than anticipated, meaning we expect the Monarch to consume 0.45W/GH at the chip level. This translates to about 300W per 600GH at the wall. Chip performance of all systems is as good as or better than predicted. To put this in perspective, this makes the Monarch chip nearly twice as power efficient as compared to our 28nm competition whose products operate between 0.9 and 1.0w per GH at the wall.
.45 at chip level = 270 watts which leaves 80 watts available to reach their 350W listing on the product page. So much for your 'chips alone are .6w' statement.The initial power consumption numbers for Monarch are in and they're about 20% better than anticipated, meaning we expect the Monarch to consume 0.45W/GH at the chip level. This translates to about 300W per 600GH at the wall. Chip performance of all systems is as good as or better than predicted. To put this in perspective, this makes the Monarch chip nearly twice as power efficient as compared to our 28nm competition whose products operate between 0.9 and 1.0w per GH at the wall.
I think Avalon wins as worst myself, but that's a judgement call due to the 800k chip fiasco.
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I challenge you to argue that any specific point I made was inaccurate. Otherwise it is you who is the troll.
Challenge accepted and completed.
What about the 1000BTC bet about power efficiency that was supposed to go to charity that Josh conveniently forgot about after the BTC value spiked last year.
They didn't forgot about it, they created an ad-hoc charity for the goal of receiving the donation.Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #fJtMAvQG9VRqL7gJ
What about the 1000BTC bet about power efficiency that was supposed to go to charity that Josh conveniently forgot about after the BTC value spiked last year.
Here is a highlighted sample of various lies [in red], half-truths, debatable white lies, or just misinformation [in yellow] (on just one page):
Posted with the intentions of facilitating discussions and under FAIR USE.
Please click the thumbnail above to see the full image.
Posted with the intentions of facilitating discussions and under FAIR USE.
Please click the thumbnail above to see the full image.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kkffk/bfl_announces_new_28nm_pci_mining_blade_600ghs/
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[–]ericools 12 points 7 months ago
I thought the FPGA seemed nice, I'm actually upset that they talked me out of ordering their FPGA rig by telling me the ASIC was about to ship and would make it unprofitable. Still waiting on my ASIC.
I thought the FPGA seemed nice, I'm actually upset that they talked me out of ordering their FPGA rig by telling me the ASIC was about to ship and would make it unprofitable. Still waiting on my ASIC.
I swear that list is longer.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
Source? Don't see that on their site.
Here you go:
More marketing lies:
http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/
KnC, HashFast, Cointerra, Bitmine all have 28nm designs in the field.
It all depends on how you interpret the quoted statement, but in either interpretation, it is still false.http://www.butterflylabs.com/monarch/
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As we enter the 28nm era, we're the only competitor with a proven ASIC design in the field.
KnC, HashFast, Cointerra, Bitmine all have 28nm designs in the field.
Check the quotes... surely you can find MORE "inconsistencies".
http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-coo-responds-to-detractors-amid-company-struggles/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLsT2jFxSsc Josh Zerlan Interview... PLENTY of Points to PONDER here.
More stuff for you to reference.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kkffk/bfl_announces_new_28nm_pci_mining_blade_600ghs/
http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-coo-responds-to-detractors-amid-company-struggles/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLsT2jFxSsc Josh Zerlan Interview... PLENTY of Points to PONDER here.
More stuff for you to reference.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kkffk/bfl_announces_new_28nm_pci_mining_blade_600ghs/
Code:
BFL claims their new 28nm card will have a power draw of 350 Watts,
which puts it squarely in AMD 6990 territory.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2011/03/08/amd-radeon-hd-6990-review/9
In case you're new to Bitcoin mining, 6990's run at pretty much the thermal
limit for a PCI card. They come with scary warnings about damaging your
system's motherboard and power supply, and have a dedicated "all bets are
off if you flip this" switch on the back of the board used to enable "full power"
mode. The 6990 was a difficult project even for AMD, and has had significant
problems with reliability, especially in bitcoin mining applications. The fact
that BFL is planning to build hardware that runs at this temperature and
power density is, frankly, terrifying.
A PCI card is a very different environment than an external box that plugs in via
USB. They'll be up against all sorts of nasty power, signal timing, and compatibility
issues. If a card fails hard, it could easily take-out the motherboard, and destroy
other cards plugged in to it.
Its highly likely the finished product won't have anywhere near the hashing power
BFL claims it will, and its almost guaranteed that BFL will run into epic delays
during design and manufacturing, just like last time.
which puts it squarely in AMD 6990 territory.
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2011/03/08/amd-radeon-hd-6990-review/9
In case you're new to Bitcoin mining, 6990's run at pretty much the thermal
limit for a PCI card. They come with scary warnings about damaging your
system's motherboard and power supply, and have a dedicated "all bets are
off if you flip this" switch on the back of the board used to enable "full power"
mode. The 6990 was a difficult project even for AMD, and has had significant
problems with reliability, especially in bitcoin mining applications. The fact
that BFL is planning to build hardware that runs at this temperature and
power density is, frankly, terrifying.
A PCI card is a very different environment than an external box that plugs in via
USB. They'll be up against all sorts of nasty power, signal timing, and compatibility
issues. If a card fails hard, it could easily take-out the motherboard, and destroy
other cards plugged in to it.
Its highly likely the finished product won't have anywhere near the hashing power
BFL claims it will, and its almost guaranteed that BFL will run into epic delays
during design and manufacturing, just like last time.
I swear that list is longer.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
Source? Don't see that on their site.
There's one major thing missing from this list... a timeline as to when each comment was written. The OP seriously seems to think that these are current claims, when several of them were made months ago. Call it was it really is, a lack of updating the website with current information.
A timeline is irrelevant because most of these statements were made after KNC shipped and began working on their next gen chip.
Please don't pretend the lack of updating the site with accurate information is anything but deceit. They seem to have no problem updating other parts of the site and are incredibly active on these forums and their own.
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I challenge the OP with this: Show me an ASIC company that has not told ANY lies. Let's not focus on one, let's put them all on the table. Otherwise, this is simply another hate thread intended to incite riot because the OP is just another troll.
Challenge accepted and completed: Bitmain.
We don't need to put them all on the table because this is a thread to focus on BFL. I am not going to argue that every asic manufacturer is perfect in fact most are the complete opposite.
I think just about everyone would agree BFL is competing for worst asic manufacturer. (tied with hashfast currently)
I challenge you to argue that any specific point I made was inaccurate. Otherwise it is you who is the troll.
"List of Lies"
(so the grammar of the title of that page was fine
)
Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #OolBzHSs2U6hoq0D
(so the grammar of the title of that page was fine
)Posted from Bitcointa.lk - #OolBzHSs2U6hoq0D
There is ample current and past evidence posted right here in this forum for BFL their shills and spokesmen lying. This is not the only thread for that. The news would be where they have told the truth. There seems to be a real disconnect here if anyone is denying that BFL has lied, continues to lie and will lie in the future.
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v6n1/lying.html
https://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v6n1/lying.html
Code:
Lies are morally wrong, then, for two reasons. First, lying corrupts
the most important quality of my being human: my ability to make free,
rational choices. Each lie I tell contradicts the part of me that gives me
moral worth. Second, my lies rob others of their freedom to choose rationally.
When my lie leads people to decide other than they would had they known
the truth, I have harmed their human dignity and autonomy. Kant believed
that to value ourselves and others as ends instead of means, we have perfect
duties (i.e., no exceptions) to avoid damaging, interfering with, or misusing
the ability to make free decisions; in other words - no lying.
the most important quality of my being human: my ability to make free,
rational choices. Each lie I tell contradicts the part of me that gives me
moral worth. Second, my lies rob others of their freedom to choose rationally.
When my lie leads people to decide other than they would had they known
the truth, I have harmed their human dignity and autonomy. Kant believed
that to value ourselves and others as ends instead of means, we have perfect
duties (i.e., no exceptions) to avoid damaging, interfering with, or misusing
the ability to make free decisions; in other words - no lying.
There's one major thing missing from this list... a timeline as to when each comment was written. The OP seriously seems to think that these are current claims, when several of them were made months ago. Call it was it really is, a lack of updating the website with current information.
I challenge the OP with this: Show me an ASIC company that has not told ANY lies. Let's not focus on one, let's put them all on the table. Otherwise, this is simply another hate thread intended to incite riot because the OP is just another troll.
I challenge the OP with this: Show me an ASIC company that has not told ANY lies. Let's not focus on one, let's put them all on the table. Otherwise, this is simply another hate thread intended to incite riot because the OP is just another troll.
I swear that list is longer.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
Where should I start and stop the list?
11. The only functioning 28nm implementation.
C'mon guys, nearly three years later and everyone's still bitching about BFL?
What happen to your beef with Zhou? Pirate? Shtylman?
What happen to your beef with Zhou? Pirate? Shtylman?
Add the middle vowel, and we'll be able to spell ZIPS.
C'mon guys, nearly three years later and everyone's still bitching about BFL?
What happen to your beef with Zhou? Pirate? Shtylman?
What happen to your beef with Zhou? Pirate? Shtylman?
Pretty much sums it up!!!
So....how you makin out there Ole Joshman
Any news on the awesome power specs...& delivery dates
Didn't think so
So....how you makin out there Ole Joshman
Any news on the awesome power specs...& delivery dates Didn't think so
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