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Topic: BFL ready to ship? - page 2. (Read 10370 times)

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
March 10, 2013, 02:34:23 PM
#70
Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).
It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers. Grin

Josh has a long history of not speaking to me in a civil manner.  And my company pays me ~$1000/day to work on these kinds of problems.  Why would I consult for free for a company I consider to behave in a completely unethical manner?

For the record, here is what I said about BFL 10 months ago:


I do have one question... What is exactly the point you are trying to make?

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Thanks for asking.  I have a few simple points.

About BFL
1.  You are pre-announcing this product before delivering your previously pre-announced product
2.  This is your second claim of delivering a product with ASIC hashing.  Your first was debunked as an FPGA as soon as product shipped.
3.  You seem to be using customer funds for purchases of product for development and general expenses.  If I am wrong about that please post a notarized statement from your escrow agent and I will apologize.

About business in general
1.  Paying in advance for development is an investment.  It is generally compensated with intellectual property, equity or loan interest.
2. Honest, viable businesses become insolvent all the time for lack of cashflow.  It is the reason for the Chapter 11 bankruptcy procedures.
3. Payments in advance for products become unsecured debts in a bankruptcy proceeding.  Unsecured debtors are among the lowest priority for recovery in these procedures and generally get nothing.  Even if the material is sitting in the shipping bay with a label on it, it isn't yours under bankruptcy.
4.  For reason #3 above it is unethical, and a violation of consumer protection laws in many places to sell product in advance of availability.  For the same reason, Visa and Mastercard require shipment before a sale can be charged.
5. Companies at risk of insolvency often make very generous guarantee offers.  A guarantee has no revenue cost in the present, and has no value in bankruptcy either.

I can't see ever being a customer of yours given your business practices.  And your question has given me the opportunity to  nicely summarize why people should use caution.  So I will leave your thread to your fans and investors.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
March 10, 2013, 01:42:01 PM
#69
Now, to figure out if this is a purposeful defect to delay things even more...
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
March 10, 2013, 01:28:15 PM
#68
Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.

The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.


*sighs* If things could get any worse.
full member
Activity: 198
Merit: 100
March 10, 2013, 12:29:56 PM
#67
So many BFl cheerleaders in here. Or PL haters lol...either way i'm too here to expose BFL for their bullshit.
Join my Posse.

[Image removed...]

I just don't know what the Posse is about yet. Perhaps you should start selling PL merchandise? Make a whole franchise out of it.

I might be more popular than the Pope. Well, ex-pope.

Thanks PL.  I can finally read the can you're drinking from.  It says "Avalon Kool-Aid".  Wink

Now, where did I put my can of BFL Kool-Aid?  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
March 10, 2013, 11:25:55 AM
#66
Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.
hero member
Activity: 952
Merit: 1009
March 10, 2013, 09:49:40 AM
#65
Good god

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000
I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...
March 10, 2013, 09:33:18 AM
#64
Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).
It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers. Grin
-ck
legendary
Activity: 4088
Merit: 1631
Ruu \o/
March 10, 2013, 08:51:00 AM
#63






I like this picture, where is it come from?
迷い猫オーバーラン!
mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1027
March 10, 2013, 04:39:41 AM
#62
Pics of chips != ready to ship

You initially replied to "chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday".
And they have been shipped to the packager, because the picture shows packaged chips.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
March 10, 2013, 03:50:33 AM
#61
I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )



Pics of chips != ready to ship
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
March 10, 2013, 01:18:55 AM
#59


Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.

The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
March 10, 2013, 01:11:59 AM
#58
I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]
Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.
Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?

I would also like to know this.

Yes, I can really tell.  A properly underfilled chip will have a smooth line where it was dispensed on one side, and an equally smooth line on the other side where the epoxy flowed through. The clumping and discontinuities in the images make it likely there are voids.  To be certain you would have to inspect the die with CSAM.  The epoxy should develop a clean curve up the sidewall of the die as well - this shows good adhesion to the silicon, and ensures that the epoxy doesn't interfere with the heat sink mounting.

It's really ugly. If I was in Josh's shoes I'd be screaming mad, checking every chip to make sure the underfill isn't higher than the die back side, and demanding CSAM inspections from the assembly house to prove the packages are free of voids.

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
March 10, 2013, 01:11:32 AM
#57
High res if you want to see what he's talking about.
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/dbtgallery.php?do=view_image&id=658&gal=gallery
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
March 10, 2013, 12:56:59 AM
#56
I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]
Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.
Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?

I would also like to know this.

Yes, I can really tell.  A properly underfilled chip will have a smooth line where it was dispensed on one side, and an equally smooth line on the other side where the epoxy flowed through. The clumping and discontinuities in the images make it likely there are voids.  To be certain you would have to inspect the die with CSAM.  The epoxy should develop a clean curve up the sidewall of the die as well - this shows good adhesion to the silicon, and ensures that the epoxy doesn't interfere with the heat sink mounting.

It's really ugly. If I was in Josh's shoes I'd be screaming mad, checking every chip to make sure the underfill isn't higher than the die back side, and demanding CSAM inspections from the assembly house to prove the packages are free of voids.
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
March 10, 2013, 12:37:36 AM
#55
I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]
Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.
Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
March 09, 2013, 11:58:13 PM
#54
I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )



Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000
March 09, 2013, 10:30:18 PM
#53
The do exist....





http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o

legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
March 09, 2013, 10:17:55 PM
#52






I like this picture, where is it come from?
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
March 09, 2013, 09:33:56 PM
#51
Its true Puerto. I'm a BFL-hater and even I think you're just being a dick.  A quite obviously insecure one at that.
I think I am honored. Though I will have to check with my therapist to make sure if I am or am not honored?
Actually I really couldn't care less about BFL.  Chaps like you are a professional fascination to me so I poke just to see what happens.  You and your "posse" carry on.
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