Binance Hackers Bombard Chipmixer to Launder at Least 4,836 BTC - page 7.

squatter

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 11, 2019, 10:51:31 PM

I don't think that they have any real choice here. If the feds are involved, then they need to cooperate with them. Else, they will just get destroyed, like BTC-e and numerous other cryptocurrency ventures.

If Chipmixer is set up properly, the most the US government can do is seize their clearnet domain. Even if they can get their hands on servers, proper encryption should leave all funds intact. The service could be restarted within a few days in that case.

When fiat money isn't involved, the US government isn't that great of a threat.

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 11, 2019, 10:15:14 AM

This surely is a bad light for Chipmixer now, although I believe that they won't openly cooperate and maintain full control of their mixing operations, but the main question is until when? They are a decent mixing service and a trusted name at that department, although once people knew that the said mixing service openly gave all the necessary info as to what happened to the coins and where it landed, I doubt people will still trust the said service. This is what my fears are for mixers, and was just a matter of time before news like this one surface. FATF, FBI and other agencies would come at Chipmixer's front door knocking and asking whether they want to cooperate or not, and I hope they know how to handle such issue.

Well, maybe this is a nightmare for chipmixers if binance really demands chipmixers, even though chipmixers are just a service, but because the services can launder money, they can be dragged into the case of hacking Binance. Especially if the country where the chipmixer stands is a member FATF, this will be an initiative action for the government of the country to further investigate cases like this. But here I hope the chipmixer will be fine because I also need a mixer service, but if something bad happens then another mixer service might be affected.

eaLiTy

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Quote from: dul48 on August 11, 2019, 06:01:01 AM

At least 4,836 Bitcoin (BTC) of stolen from Binance exchange in May 2019 was laundered through crypto mixing service Chipmixer.

It is a really bad news for chipmixer as a service as they are put under the bus by this act, with mixing service closing left and right because of pressure from authorities and with his new update the authorities will be putting too much pressure to one of the only surviving good mixing service, even if they reveal the identity of the hackers it will hurt their business, how they are going to respond to the authorities is the biggest suspense here.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on August 11, 2019, 10:51:31 PM

I don't think that they have any real choice here. If the feds are involved, then they need to cooperate with them. Else, they will just get destroyed, like BTC-e and numerous other cryptocurrency ventures. If they could limit the damage, by giving only a part of the information (like past 3 months data), then they may be able to retain a fraction of the user-base. But at the same time, there is no guarantee that the feds will allow Chipmixer to continue its operations, as now it is proven that criminals are making use of its services.

Also, it is quite possible that the feds will push for mandatory KYC verification for the Chipmixer users, which defeats the very purpose of using their services. I am feeling quite skeptical about them, and I have a feeling that they probably won't survive for long (irrespective of whether they are ready to cooperate with the FBI or not).

First they would have to find who they are/where they're from, unlike btc-e/wex they don't deal with fiat currencies, so they have no legal entities to search for. And they'd have to prove Chipmixer knowingly accepted stolen bitcoins.

Quote from: joelsamuya on August 11, 2019, 11:04:11 PM

I am amazed why those hackers decided to use the Chipmixer coin-mixing service when they are aware that the transactions can still be traced. I am hoping that there can be an official investigation to this and something can be done especially in tracking these people who are the real scumbags of this industry. As to Chipmixer, the last among the many, let's hope this can never lead to its own downfall.

The stolen bitcoins were traced to Chipmixer, but tracing where they went is another matter. Yes, they mixed more coins than usual after the theft, but it can only be said mixed coins from Chipmixer are more likely to come from the theft for a while, telling which ones came from the theft will not be easy. Blockchain analysis companies probably work with exchanges, payment processors like Bitpay, etc. so depending on how many of Chipmixer's users spend coins where their identities can be deduced it will make the job of identifying the stolen coins easier or harder.

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on August 11, 2019, 11:05:42 AM

If we follow Clain’s report on their website (https://blog.clain.io/binance-hack-2019-deep-dive-into-the-money-laundering/) it does talk quite a lot in terms of likelihood. If fact, of the 4836 BTCs it has allegedly identified as being sent to Chipmixer, it only (currently) used a stronger more assertive vocabulary for 183 BTCs, stating that those are “surely” ("certainly", I figure they mean) identified as hacker funds, in contrast with 814 BTCs termed as “likely”.

Semantics is important, and although they may well have a good trail on something, when performing an accusation of this nature it is important to be certain and not likely certain.

Interestingly enough, back in March 2019, Clain studied the hack on a Japanese exchange called Zaif (see https://blog.clain.io/applying-machine-learning-for-thorough-investigation-of-zaif-hack/). Their investigation leads them to believe that, out of the 5957 BTCs stolen, 875 went through Chipmixer’s tumbler, and at least 1549 (mixed or not) ended up in Binance deposit addresses, with amounts below the KYC threshold of 2 BTCs used by Binance for withdrawals...

I think this is the best case for now. Everyone is saying this is bad for Chipmixer but first of all, there is no proof that they aided this activity at all,,, and like you said, more than 1500 BTC went to Binance and Binance did nothing. And immediately used it to process withdrawals for its customers.

So,,, Bitcoin fungibility wins.

libert19

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 07:30:13 AM

This is bad for Chipmixer. If the authority decided to investigate on this and targeted Chipmixer to shutdown regardless of the investigation, they can easily do it since they have a proof in their hand that a mixing service had been used to launder a hacked BTC. I wonder why Chipmixer did not suspend those transactions.., Did they failed to track that those BTC were hacked?

That's the purpose (to anonymize transactions) chipmixer is here for, isn't it?

And I doubt, chipmixer would suspend those transactions, since it would go against the purpose it's providing.

btc_angela

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 11, 2019, 10:53:43 PM

Quote from: DdmrDdmr on August 11, 2019, 11:05:42 AM

If we follow Clain’s report on their website (https://blog.clain.io/binance-hack-2019-deep-dive-into-the-money-laundering/) it does talk quite a lot in terms of likelihood. If fact, of the 4836 BTCs it has allegedly identified as being sent to Chipmixer, it only (currently) used a stronger more assertive vocabulary for 183 BTCs, stating that those are “surely” ("certainly", I figure they mean) identified as hacker funds, in contrast with 814 BTCs termed as “likely”.

Semantics is important, and although they may well have a good trail on something, when performing an accusation of this nature it is important to be certain and not likely certain.

Interestingly enough, back in March 2019, Clain studied the hack on a Japanese exchange called Zaif (see https://blog.clain.io/applying-machine-learning-for-thorough-investigation-of-zaif-hack/). Their investigation leads them to believe that, out of the 5957 BTCs stolen, 875 went through Chipmixer’s tumbler, and at least 1549 (mixed or not) ended up in Binance deposit addresses, with amounts below the KYC threshold of 2 BTCs used by Binance for withdrawals...

to be honest this article looks to me like another chain analysis service that is trying to advertise their services and take some customers to make money. otherwise all of their statements on their website looks like pure guesswork which they give validity to by using buzzwords such as "network science" and "machine learning".

This could be the case, we are not sure why they singlehandedly mention chipmixer, hmmm. And probably just promoting their service and what why to shill for your company than mentioning in your investigation one of the best mixing services right now. This could be just a promotion for all we know.

joelsamuya

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I am amazed why those hackers decided to use the Chipmixer coin-mixing service when they are aware that the transactions can still be traced. I am hoping that there can be an official investigation to this and something can be done especially in tracking these people who are the real scumbags of this industry. As to Chipmixer, the last among the many, let's hope this can never lead to its own downfall.

pooya87

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on August 11, 2019, 11:05:42 AM

If we follow Clain’s report on their website (https://blog.clain.io/binance-hack-2019-deep-dive-into-the-money-laundering/) it does talk quite a lot in terms of likelihood. If fact, of the 4836 BTCs it has allegedly identified as being sent to Chipmixer, it only (currently) used a stronger more assertive vocabulary for 183 BTCs, stating that those are “surely” ("certainly", I figure they mean) identified as hacker funds, in contrast with 814 BTCs termed as “likely”.

Semantics is important, and although they may well have a good trail on something, when performing an accusation of this nature it is important to be certain and not likely certain.

Interestingly enough, back in March 2019, Clain studied the hack on a Japanese exchange called Zaif (see https://blog.clain.io/applying-machine-learning-for-thorough-investigation-of-zaif-hack/). Their investigation leads them to believe that, out of the 5957 BTCs stolen, 875 went through Chipmixer’s tumbler, and at least 1549 (mixed or not) ended up in Binance deposit addresses, with amounts below the KYC threshold of 2 BTCs used by Binance for withdrawals...

to be honest this article looks to me like another chain analysis service that is trying to advertise their services and take some customers to make money. otherwise all of their statements on their website looks like pure guesswork which they give validity to by using buzzwords such as "network science" and "machine learning".

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 11, 2019, 09:40:04 AM

Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 09:17:30 AM

Indeed, for sure Chipmixer will cooperate to the authority to trace the hacker. I believe Chipmixer will protect their name and will have a wise decision regarding this incident. Mixing service have records of their transaction though they keep it private.

Chipmixer is in a bad spot right now, if they give the data to authorities, they will lose some customers, both criminals and just people who don't trust governments. If they don't cooperate, they will risk getting closed, and they will have reputation of a service that launders dirty money, and some users might be scared that the coins that they get will be tainted.

I don't think that they have any real choice here. If the feds are involved, then they need to cooperate with them. Else, they will just get destroyed, like BTC-e and numerous other cryptocurrency ventures. If they could limit the damage, by giving only a part of the information (like past 3 months data), then they may be able to retain a fraction of the user-base. But at the same time, there is no guarantee that the feds will allow Chipmixer to continue its operations, as now it is proven that criminals are making use of its services.

Also, it is quite possible that the feds will push for mandatory KYC verification for the Chipmixer users, which defeats the very purpose of using their services. I am feeling quite skeptical about them, and I have a feeling that they probably won't survive for long (irrespective of whether they are ready to cooperate with the FBI or not).

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Quote from: Thirdspace on August 11, 2019, 07:52:17 PM

Quote from: squatter on August 11, 2019, 02:36:40 PM

If Chipmixer operates the way they claim, they don't have more data about the hacker than can already be extracted from blockchain analysis.

yes, there should be no usable data left in ChipMixer system to link the ins and outs
but ChipMixer system possibly still maintain all previous deposit addresses (HD wallet)
and it can be used as proof that chipmixer did receive those hacked coins

The only information Chipmixer has are the input addresses, which isn't a lot of information, and due to the large transaction size, it'll likely be found out anyway by the authorities. The bigger the amount is you are trying to mix, the easier it is to track.

Quote from: LeGaulois on August 11, 2019, 03:42:35 PM

I agree, for now it certainly draws heat to ChipMixer and may reduce its users
but in a few months if nothing happens to them, this would boost ChipMixer's reputation

Let's see what happens to them, they haven't been shut down when the other 2 large mixers got shut down, so I doubt they will face anything bad from the authorities. This will just showcase their strengths.

Quote from: Jating on August 11, 2019, 09:17:48 PM

Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 07:30:13 AM

This is bad for Chipmixer. If the authority decided to investigate on this and targeted Chipmixer to shutdown regardless of the investigation, they can easily do it since they have a proof in their hand that a mixing service had been used to launder a hacked BTC. I wonder why Chipmixer did not suspend those transactions.., Did they failed to track that those BTC were hacked?

I can only speculate that maybe they did not know that the coins did come from the Binance hack. Or they wittingly know it but just decided to mix it anyways, at the end of the end its all business.

Quote from: Tipstar on August 11, 2019, 08:21:25 AM

Bad news for Chipmixer, they are the only legit established large sized mixer left after the closer of many. This move would certainly bring them in for investigation as it's a criminal case.
This could lead to the end of bitcoin mixing services and enforce more regulations on exchanges and tradings.

What do you mean by the 'only' one legit mixer? There are still a lot of tumbling services around. But I would have to agree that it bring attention to them that could affect their services negatively. If they are going to be investigated, what will they give to the agencies? They don't back up any logs for that matter Plus they give you fresh new mint coins as well (as far as I know.)

I doubt they monitor their transactions all the time and would be able to know the coins are from the Binance hack. Chipmixer is the most popular mixer now, and it'll be a shame for them to shut down - other mixers are still fairly new or just don't work as well as Chipmixer.

Jating

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 07:30:13 AM

This is bad for Chipmixer. If the authority decided to investigate on this and targeted Chipmixer to shutdown regardless of the investigation, they can easily do it since they have a proof in their hand that a mixing service had been used to launder a hacked BTC. I wonder why Chipmixer did not suspend those transactions.., Did they failed to track that those BTC were hacked?

I can only speculate that maybe they did not know that the coins did come from the Binance hack. Or they wittingly know it but just decided to mix it anyways, at the end of the end its all business.

Quote from: Tipstar on August 11, 2019, 08:21:25 AM

Bad news for Chipmixer, they are the only legit established large sized mixer left after the closer of many. This move would certainly bring them in for investigation as it's a criminal case.
This could lead to the end of bitcoin mixing services and enforce more regulations on exchanges and tradings.

What do you mean by the 'only' one legit mixer? There are still a lot of tumbling services around. But I would have to agree that it bring attention to them that could affect their services negatively. If they are going to be investigated, what will they give to the agencies? They don't back up any logs for that matter Plus they give you fresh new mint coins as well (as far as I know.)

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Quote from: squatter on August 11, 2019, 02:36:40 PM

If Chipmixer operates the way they claim, they don't have more data about the hacker than can already be extracted from blockchain analysis.

yes, there should be no usable data left in ChipMixer system to link the ins and outs
but ChipMixer system possibly still maintain all previous deposit addresses (HD wallet)
and it can be used as proof that chipmixer did receive those hacked coins

Quote from: LeGaulois on August 11, 2019, 03:42:35 PM

Most of you are saying it's bad for ChipMixer but I would say the opposite. It's a good opportunity to prove how robust is the mixing process. In the end, it will make ChipMixer's reputation stronger and attract more people who are used to use BTC tumblers.

Quote from: tippytoes on August 11, 2019, 06:53:24 PM

Chipmixer might be in the hot seat right now ...

I agree, for now it certainly draws heat to ChipMixer and may reduce its users
but in a few months if nothing happens to them, this would boost ChipMixer's reputation

timerland

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Let's not be so fast to assume facts, and take the PR with a grain of salt. The title and article is structured in a very clickbait like structure, but the true story is far from what is being represented.

Quote from: Tipstar on August 11, 2019, 08:21:25 AM

Bad news for Chipmixer, they are the only legit established large sized mixer left after the closer of many. This move would certainly bring them in for investigation as it's a criminal case.
This could lead to the end of bitcoin mixing services and enforce more regulations on exchanges and tradings.

Not really. Chipmixer doesn't know anything about the criminals, there is no KYC that is forced upon them and then only thing available to them is the information available on the blockchain.

Quote from: LeGaulois on August 11, 2019, 03:42:35 PM

Most of you are saying it's bad for ChipMixer but I would say the opposite. It's a good opportunity to prove how robust is the mixing process. In the end, it will make ChipMixer's reputation stronger and attract more people who are used to use BTC tumblers.
Such articles are helpful

Quote from: Febo on August 11, 2019, 03:12:50 PM

It will not be first one taken down and organizers get big penalties. This can happen to anything that have central point of failure. Even cryptocurencies that uses coinjoin to make their transactions opaque.

Big penalties? Have you ever see a mixer webmaster going in a justice court? What the hell are you talking about with Coinjoin

I agree - this will be proof of how solid the service is they are offering, and I doubt anyone in the Chipmixer organization will ever be forced to show up to court.

sandra_x

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Quote from: hv_ on August 11, 2019, 03:50:39 PM

Muh, mixers are just stupid. Its only good for criminal use. No decent user needs that at all. U might need to trace back all ur coin txs in case...

Somehow the main purpose of a chipmixer is being abused here. It may have come useful if one wanted to conceal his identity for legitimate reasons - I know that sounds criminal in many instances but not in all

sandra_x

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Kind of an abuse of the chipmixer, an attempt to further obscure his identity and we may get stiffer measures from government authorities to attack whatever useful tool they can lay their hands because of abuses like this. It also underscores why the demand for 'virgin bitcoin' has been on the increase in recent months

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Quote from: Gi01 on August 11, 2019, 07:11:12 PM

Quote from: dul48 on August 11, 2019, 06:01:01 AM

At least 4,836 Bitcoin (BTC) of stolen from Binance exchange in May 2019 was laundered through crypto mixing service Chipmixer.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-hackers-bombard-chipmixer-to-launder-at-least-4-836-btc

How sure and reliable is this information? With regard to the fact that cointelegraph posted this article doesn't really guarantee that the bitcoins were the ones stolen from binance. I think we should take our time to further analyse this info well before drawing possible conclusions.

So do you think that cointelegraph wasn't a reliable source of information?
The news was already on other bitcoin news site.

Try to read this also mate.
https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/08/150394-chipmixer-bitcoin-tumbler-used-to-launder-funds-stolen-in-80-million-usd-hack-on-binance/

Gi01

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Quote from: dul48 on August 11, 2019, 06:01:01 AM

At least 4,836 Bitcoin (BTC) of stolen from Binance exchange in May 2019 was laundered through crypto mixing service Chipmixer.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-hackers-bombard-chipmixer-to-launder-at-least-4-836-btc

How sure and reliable is this information? With regard to the fact that cointelegraph posted this article doesn't really guarantee that the bitcoins were the ones stolen from binance. I think we should take our time to further analyse this info well before drawing possible conclusions.

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: philipma1957 on August 11, 2019, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: 1Referee on August 11, 2019, 05:54:30 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 05:10:59 PM

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

The moment agencies figure out that there is a new mixer in town, they are trying their best to get it to shut down. In other words, agencies of all sorts have been after ChipMixer and other mixers for a long time now. The weakest ones have been taken out unfortunately, where the strongest ones will gain more dominance and thus have more financial resources to not fall victim to governmental raids.

The long term problem I see is that with more advanced tools to their disposal, agencies will be getting better at what they do. They are catching up real fast, while most people here believe governments are still ignorant and don't understand Bitcoin. They just play stupid. They know what's going on.

Very astute deduction. Which is why I don’t send any coins into any mixers.

What will happen is mixers will be considered tainted coins by many different governments.

So it would be very wise to not send a coin into their accounts.

That and you're getting flagged for audit if any of them do keep logs and algorithms that get seized as part of a plea deal with the government that takes them down. Seriously even for non malicious reasons I wouldn't use a mixer, you are probably getting tainted coins and exchanges has proven to seize them before on behalf of governments.

Chipmixer might be in the hot seat right now but I guess they are doing some contingencies before their dreaded situation happens. They should know that sooner or later, they will face such situation like this and they should be prepared for it. Now, that they are in the limelight, they should do a swift action on this matter.

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Quote from: 1Referee on August 11, 2019, 05:54:30 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 05:10:59 PM

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

The moment agencies figure out that there is a new mixer in town, they are trying their best to get it to shut down. In other words, agencies of all sorts have been after ChipMixer and other mixers for a long time now. The weakest ones have been taken out unfortunately, where the strongest ones will gain more dominance and thus have more financial resources to not fall victim to governmental raids.

The long term problem I see is that with more advanced tools to their disposal, agencies will be getting better at what they do. They are catching up real fast, while most people here believe governments are still ignorant and don't understand Bitcoin. They just play stupid. They know what's going on.

Very astute deduction. Which is why I don’t send any coins into any mixers.

What will happen is mixers will be considered tainted coins by many different governments.

So it would be very wise to not send a coin into their accounts.

Topic: Binance Hackers Bombard Chipmixer to Launder at Least 4,836 BTC - page 7. (Read 6404 times)