Binance Hackers Bombard Chipmixer to Launder at Least 4,836 BTC - page 8.

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Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 04:10:59 PM

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

The moment agencies figure out that there is a new mixer in town, they are trying their best to get it to shut down. In other words, agencies of all sorts have been after ChipMixer and other mixers for a long time now. The weakest ones have been taken out unfortunately, where the strongest ones will gain more dominance and thus have more financial resources to not fall victim to governmental raids.

The long term problem I see is that with more advanced tools to their disposal, agencies will be getting better at what they do. They are catching up real fast, while most people here believe governments are still ignorant and don't understand Bitcoin. They just play stupid. They know what's going on.

BitHodler

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Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 04:10:59 PM

Just wait until exchanges decide that mixers are the service they don't agree with and start booting users who use them. You may not be able to trace the coins but you can see that they went through a mixer.

That would really suck, and affect the service initially, but I'm sure that mixers will find a way to make their mixing process look more like an organic form of economical activity commonly taking place on the network already.

The thing however is that you can't just ban mixers simply because you can't prove that the coins have gone through a mixer. If you boot someone just based on the assumption that he used a mixer, that's very bad business.

Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 04:10:59 PM

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

Every mixer is unfortunately a target, but the 'positive' side of all these agencies chasing mixers is that the mixers are pretty much forced to become even more anonymous (relatively speaking) than they already are.

Result is that mixers will be more difficult to shut down and that we as privacy respecting users can still use them to get rid of taint.

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Quote from: pixie85 on August 11, 2019, 04:10:59 PM

Quote from: BitHodler on August 11, 2019, 03:09:35 PM

An example is Coinbase that has booted hundreds or maybe even thousands of users, all because they withdrew coins to a service their banking partners don't agree with. Mixers come in very handy here.

Just wait until exchanges decide that mixers are the service they don't agree with and start booting users who use them. You may not be able to trace the coins but you can see that they went through a mixer.

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

So far we have seen two mixing services succumb to the pressure of the government. Of course authorities will do their best to shutdown Chipmixer, however I do believed that Chipmixer is not stupid enough to let that happen to them.

Definitely they have been monitoring everything but I doubt that they would cooperate unless the authorities have all the information that they indeed Chipmixer got all that 4836 BTC and where it went. But if ever Chipmixer's closes, there will be another services that is going to pop, that how businesses evolved.

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Quote from: BitHodler on August 11, 2019, 03:09:35 PM

An example is Coinbase that has booted hundreds or maybe even thousands of users, all because they withdrew coins to a service their banking partners don't agree with. Mixers come in very handy here.

Just wait until exchanges decide that mixers are the service they don't agree with and start booting users who use them. You may not be able to trace the coins but you can see that they went through a mixer.

Sooner or later some agencies will try to shut down chipmixer. I hope they have a backup plan for that.

BitHodler

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Quote from: hv_ on August 11, 2019, 02:50:39 PM

Muh, mixers are just stupid. Its only good for criminal use. No decent user needs that at all. U might need to trace back all ur coin txs in case...

I'm not a criminal. I for example use a mixer when I need to make a purchase in Bitcoin and buy these coins through my local exchange. It gives me a peace of mind knowing that it provides me a layer of privacy I didn't have before.

Exchanges increasingly start to look at what you do with your coins after withdrawing them-- their banking partners can demand them to boot you off their platform, and they will definitely not go against that.

An example is Coinbase that has booted hundreds or maybe even thousands of users, all because they withdrew coins to a service their banking partners don't agree with. Mixers come in very handy here.

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 11, 2019, 08:40:04 AM

Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 08:17:30 AM

Indeed, for sure Chipmixer will cooperate to the authority to trace the hacker. I believe Chipmixer will protect their name and will have a wise decision regarding this incident. Mixing service have records of their transaction though they keep it private.

Chipmixer is in a bad spot right now, if they give the data to authorities, they will lose some customers, both criminals and just people who don't trust governments. If they don't cooperate, they will risk getting closed, and they will have reputation of a service that launders dirty money, and some users might be scared that the coins that they get will be tainted.

Of course, chipmixer will follow on what they believe is right regarding to this. Even binance or any government approach to them, they will not give any data related if they care on what they're believing and the purpose of chipmixer, or else their users will start to shrink just like bestmixer.

hv_

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Muh, mixers are just stupid. Its only good for criminal use. No decent user needs that at all. U might need to trace back all ur coin txs in case...

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Most of you are saying it's bad for ChipMixer but I would say the opposite. It's a good opportunity to prove how robust is the mixing process. In the end, it will make ChipMixer's reputation stronger and attract more people who are used to use BTC tumblers.
Such articles are helpful

Quote from: Febo on August 11, 2019, 02:12:50 PM

It will not be first one taken down and organizers get big penalties. This can happen to anything that have central point of failure. Even cryptocurencies that uses coinjoin to make their transactions opaque.

Big penalties? Have you ever see a mixer webmaster going in a justice court? What the hell are you talking about with Coinjoin

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 06:30:13 AM

This is bad for Chipmixer. If the authority decided to investigate on this and targeted Chipmixer to shutdown regardless of the investigation, they can easily do it since they have a proof in their hand that a mixing service had been used to launder a hacked BTC. I wonder why Chipmixer did not suspend those transactions.., Did they failed to track that those BTC were hacked?

It will not be first one taken down and organizers get big penalties. This can happen to anything that have central point of failure. Even cryptocurencies that uses coinjoin to make their transactions opaque.

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on August 11, 2019, 10:05:42 AM

If we follow Clain’s report on their website (https://blog.clain.io/binance-hack-2019-deep-dive-into-the-money-laundering/) it does talk quite a lot in terms of likelihood. If fact, of the 4836 BTCs it has allegedly identified as being sent to Chipmixer, it only (currently) used a stronger more assertive vocabulary for 183 BTCs, stating that those are “surely” ("certainly", I figure they mean) identified as hacker funds, in contrast with 814 BTCs termed as “likely”.

Semantics is important, and although they may well have a good trail on something, when performing an accusation of this nature it is important to be certain and not likely certain.

Excellent point. Everyone is reacting to the clickbait headline number, but the reality is much less clear.

Another important thing to note is that exchanges (like Binance) and DEXs are routinely used to launder the proceeds of hacks. So let's not crucify any one service for something we all know is happening across the entire ecosystem.

Quote from: 13abyknight on August 11, 2019, 10:19:38 AM

Quote from: coolcoinz on August 11, 2019, 09:06:54 AM

Should they contact Binance and lock the funds?

This is practically impossible for ChipMixer as it would question their ethics of remaining as a legitimate mixing service.

If Chipmixer operates the way they claim, they don't have more data about the hacker than can already be extracted from blockchain analysis.

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 06:30:13 AM

This is bad for Chipmixer. If the authority decided to investigate on this and targeted Chipmixer to shutdown regardless of the investigation, they can easily do it since they have a proof in their hand that a mixing service had been used to launder a hacked BTC. I wonder why Chipmixer did not suspend those transactions.., Did they failed to track that those BTC were hacked?

Agree! It would be a bad reputation for chipmixer. This news might be a problem dealing with chipmixers access from hackers. If ever they will not be absolved, probably they will shutdown. However, I think there could be a deeper and several procedures before chipmixer ruined specially if they don't have an intention to have a user who hacked thousands of bitcoin in BNB.

Chipmixer was a great platform though, I know they will make a move to clean this issue. They should have an official statement and do an action to resolve it as soon as possible. If there's proof that the hackers aren't from chipmixer, then it will be fixed in a little amount of time.

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Quote from: Kakmakr on August 11, 2019, 07:05:06 AM

This is a very stupid move and it might lead to the hacker being caught a lot quicker. A mixer service takes your coins and mix them with other people's coins, but the larger the amount of coins being mixed, the higher the chances that those coins might be mixed by the coins being send. It is rumoured that mixing services are less anonymous with larger amount of coins being mixed. Roll Eyes

So let's hope this backfires on them and that they dug their own grave by doing this. Tongue

The companies tracking these coins, might just have received a jackpot from these hackers bombarding a single mixer service with a lot of coins. Grin

Yeah, that would be nice! But I am not sure there's such a small variety on Chipmixers that your own coins will be mixed with each other, thus leaving traces. I guess a big amount of money is riskier than a small one, but still... It's sad if the hackers won't be found, it can be a black spot of Chipmixer's nice reputation. Unless Chipmixer helps the authorities since in this case, it's clear that the money is used for illegal activities... But in that case, the company might lose some of its customers and customers' trust in general. So it's a difficult situation, and it would be best for everyone apart from the hackers if you're right about the vulnerability.

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Quote from: coolcoinz on August 11, 2019, 09:06:54 AM

Should they stop mixing stolen coins? Should they let the police know? Should they contact Binance and lock the funds?

How would they even know before the transactions began coming in that the big sum of coins was off the Binance hack? Even if they knew, once it went into the mixer, there would be nothing stopping the hackers from getting 'clean' coins in a matter of minutes. Also, for obvious reasons, the hackers would've used the TOR mirror making things even harder to crack.

Quote from: coolcoinz on August 11, 2019, 09:06:54 AM

Should they contact Binance and lock the funds?

This is practically impossible for ChipMixer as it would question their ethics of remaining as a legitimate mixing service. Then again, 'locking the funds' wouldn't be possible as the output private keys with the clean coins would've already have been claimed at any time.

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If we follow Clain’s report on their website (https://blog.clain.io/binance-hack-2019-deep-dive-into-the-money-laundering/) it does talk quite a lot in terms of likelihood. If fact, of the 4836 BTCs it has allegedly identified as being sent to Chipmixer, it only (currently) used a stronger more assertive vocabulary for 183 BTCs, stating that those are “surely” ("certainly", I figure they mean) identified as hacker funds, in contrast with 814 BTCs termed as “likely”.

Semantics is important, and although they may well have a good trail on something, when performing an accusation of this nature it is important to be certain and not likely certain.

Interestingly enough, back in March 2019, Clain studied the hack on a Japanese exchange called Zaif (see https://blog.clain.io/applying-machine-learning-for-thorough-investigation-of-zaif-hack/). Their investigation leads them to believe that, out of the 5957 BTCs stolen, 875 went through Chipmixer’s tumbler, and at least 1549 (mixed or not) ended up in Binance deposit addresses, with amounts below the KYC threshold of 2 BTCs used by Binance for withdrawals...

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Quote from: dul48 on August 11, 2019, 05:01:01 AM

At least 4,836 Bitcoin (BTC) of stolen from Binance exchange in May 2019 was laundered through crypto mixing service Chipmixer.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-hackers-bombard-chipmixer-to-launder-at-least-4-836-btc

This is not good anyway for the Chipmixer, this might be the big reason for them to be close or shutdown in the end.
Also their bounty participants are in danger too because of this things. 4836 bitcoinBTC was not a joke actually, it is indeed a huge
amount that has been stolen.

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This surely is a bad light for Chipmixer now, although I believe that they won't openly cooperate and maintain full control of their mixing operations, but the main question is until when? They are a decent mixing service and a trusted name at that department, although once people knew that the said mixing service openly gave all the necessary info as to what happened to the coins and where it landed, I doubt people will still trust the said service. This is what my fears are for mixers, and was just a matter of time before news like this one surface. FATF, FBI and other agencies would come at Chipmixer's front door knocking and asking whether they want to cooperate or not, and I hope they know how to handle such issue.

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Quote from: Saint-loup on August 11, 2019, 08:54:56 AM

They can't openly collaborate with the authorities, otherwise nobody will use their services anymore.

They can't also cooperate unopenly. If somebody were to leak it (like a former employee) it would be even worse for the mixer.
Should they stop mixing stolen coins? Should they let the police know? Should they contact Binance and lock the funds? All these things will undermine the goal of their business, which is providing anonymous and safe mixing services. Hackers or not, they are clients who are paying Chipmixer to do their job. This job is not to trace every coin to its source before mixing it.

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on August 11, 2019, 08:40:04 AM

Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 08:17:30 AM

Indeed, for sure Chipmixer will cooperate to the authority to trace the hacker. I believe Chipmixer will protect their name and will have a wise decision regarding this incident. Mixing service have records of their transaction though they keep it private.

Chipmixer is in a bad spot right now, if they give the data to authorities, they will lose some customers, both criminals and just people who don't trust governments. If they don't cooperate, they will risk getting closed, and they will have reputation of a service that launders dirty money, and some users might be scared that the coins that they get will be tainted.

Yes, when I read this thread, the same thought occurs, it's a bad situation to Chipmixer
If I were the owner of Chipmixer I would not know what to do, but honestly, I think I would be at Binance side and trying to help them in this case, because anonymity is different than illegal

Saint-loup

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 08:17:30 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 11, 2019, 07:05:06 AM

This is a very stupid move and it might lead to the hacker being caught a lot quicker. A mixer service takes your coins and mix them with other people's coins, but the larger the amount of coins being mixed, the higher the chances that those coins might be mixed by the coins being send. It is rumoured that mixing services are less anonymous with larger amount of coins being mixed. Roll Eyes

Indeed, for sure Chipmixer will cooperate to the authority to trace the hacker. I believe Chipmixer will protect their name and will have a wise decision regarding this incident. Mixing service have records of their transaction though they keep it private.

Quote from: Kakmakr on August 11, 2019, 07:05:06 AM

So let's hope this backfires on them and that they dug their own grave by doing this. Tongue

The companies tracking these coins, might just have received a jackpot from these hackers bombarding a single mixer service with a lot of coins. Grin

It will definitely backfire to the hackers.

They can't openly collaborate with the authorities, otherwise nobody will use their services anymore.
And BTW which authorities are you talking about? Are you sure there is at least one authority investigating the case?
If it's just the singaporean authorities, I don't think Chipmixer will care very much about them...

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: serjent05 on August 11, 2019, 08:17:30 AM

Indeed, for sure Chipmixer will cooperate to the authority to trace the hacker. I believe Chipmixer will protect their name and will have a wise decision regarding this incident. Mixing service have records of their transaction though they keep it private.

Chipmixer is in a bad spot right now, if they give the data to authorities, they will lose some customers, both criminals and just people who don't trust governments. If they don't cooperate, they will risk getting closed, and they will have reputation of a service that launders dirty money, and some users might be scared that the coins that they get will be tainted.

Topic: Binance Hackers Bombard Chipmixer to Launder at Least 4,836 BTC - page 8. (Read 6438 times)