Topic: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg - page 121. (Read 542151 times)
October 18, 2017, 05:40:55 AM
October 18, 2017, 02:02:47 AM
And just for further clarification so you understand my perspective as a seller, this is my balance now after providing the mineral and paying for shipping out of pocket: $943.344864
Initial investment: $950 so results are loss of $6.655136 plus the $5.5 on priority shipping, loss of ~$12 and my fancy piece of tourmaline. My _ONLY_ recourse now is to sit on these BAY coins and wait for them to go up, which is not the reason I purchased them.
that figure is based on the current value of the BAY. I hope this clearly exemplifies the reality of the short term seller (most wish to be paid when they sell the items most likely not to sit on BAY for a long time thereafter).
When I purchased the BAY it was at $.033. So you can see that by selling a $333 item that I have actually earned (less than) ZERO. If you don't see this as a problem then I don't know how else to explain.
You must consider that there are going to be different players in this game because you have merged the thought streams, or trains so to speak. You need to think about the sellers not just the investors. The investors have _NOTHING_ without the popular use of your software and who will create that use if not the sellers? The fact that it's been some years and I login and see less than a page of listings is telling me that what I have communicated does have merit and should be considered. Anyway, that's my write up and interaction with BAY. I will check back later once it is being used more and there is more chance of the coins going up (in the moment not long term) than going down. Which means there needs to be more customers, which means there needs to be more sellers. I am not trying to be a jerk about this simply explaining some imperative logic that will be the success or fail of the system. Not my suggestions being that success or fail but what I just said, if not for my suggestion then some way needs to be found to GET THE SELLERS TO LIST THEIR ITEMS otherwise there cannot be prosperity for investors, sellers, customers, etc.
You can translate prosperity to: success of the system. this does not have to be $ or greed or nothing like that. simply a matter of: DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORKING? for me, with all things considered, it didn't work. I lost a tourmaline. Well, I didn't lose it I will look at it like a gift. I have been known to gift minerals and it looks like that one knew where it was going. I am stepping away from this. not with dissent or bad blood, I think that we did have a good communication but for me the bottom line remains- without sitting on the BAY and if/when they go up, I am down. Just boils down to practicality and it must be practical to achieve adoption. blessings.
Initial investment: $950 so results are loss of $6.655136 plus the $5.5 on priority shipping, loss of ~$12 and my fancy piece of tourmaline. My _ONLY_ recourse now is to sit on these BAY coins and wait for them to go up, which is not the reason I purchased them.
that figure is based on the current value of the BAY. I hope this clearly exemplifies the reality of the short term seller (most wish to be paid when they sell the items most likely not to sit on BAY for a long time thereafter).
When I purchased the BAY it was at $.033. So you can see that by selling a $333 item that I have actually earned (less than) ZERO. If you don't see this as a problem then I don't know how else to explain.
You must consider that there are going to be different players in this game because you have merged the thought streams, or trains so to speak. You need to think about the sellers not just the investors. The investors have _NOTHING_ without the popular use of your software and who will create that use if not the sellers? The fact that it's been some years and I login and see less than a page of listings is telling me that what I have communicated does have merit and should be considered. Anyway, that's my write up and interaction with BAY. I will check back later once it is being used more and there is more chance of the coins going up (in the moment not long term) than going down. Which means there needs to be more customers, which means there needs to be more sellers. I am not trying to be a jerk about this simply explaining some imperative logic that will be the success or fail of the system. Not my suggestions being that success or fail but what I just said, if not for my suggestion then some way needs to be found to GET THE SELLERS TO LIST THEIR ITEMS otherwise there cannot be prosperity for investors, sellers, customers, etc.
You can translate prosperity to: success of the system. this does not have to be $ or greed or nothing like that. simply a matter of: DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORKING? for me, with all things considered, it didn't work. I lost a tourmaline. Well, I didn't lose it I will look at it like a gift. I have been known to gift minerals and it looks like that one knew where it was going. I am stepping away from this. not with dissent or bad blood, I think that we did have a good communication but for me the bottom line remains- without sitting on the BAY and if/when they go up, I am down. Just boils down to practicality and it must be practical to achieve adoption. blessings.
Well first of all we have a price tracker which always matches the market price. I'm pretty sure your item had price tracking because that is the default on custom orders. On the other hand yes the price did drop while you were in escrow, but it could have also gone up. The price of many altcoins dropped due to bitcoin fork. I'm not in control of the free market. The peso went down when I had hospital bills to pay. I didn't get upset, I just paid them.
Now on to your next point and by the way THANK YOU for the feedback. I would like you to be patient. Many investors here have waited several years and they can ALL testify the amazing improvements to the software.
Consider this: This is the first time in history anything like this has existed. This is like the first days of Napster or Bittorrent. Bitbay is the first decentralized market in the world. It also was the first smart contracting system in the world. You can testify that indeed I was unable to break the contract a MAJOR advantage over E-bay.
Now on to your next point. The PEG is designed to make sellers happy. Reduce volatility and offer them price growth. It STABALIZES the price by forcing it to a certain range of values based on voting. That allows solid price growth. That part is not finished yet. So do the smart thing and be patient.
I will quote Warren Buffet here: "Investing is transfer of money from the impatient to the patient."
Your Tourmaline will probably be worth a lot more if you just wait and you won't regret it.
I'm still coding this thing. I can't stop the drop of price of Bay any more than I can stop the drop of Bitcoins price. But when the peg is done we should have a lot more control over it. And don't exaggerate this software worked perfectly fine you got your money and you are sad the price went down as if there isn't thousands more investors lurking on this thread (most of them hoping for you to sell).
BitBay is also at it's floor it's very unlikely it would go down from here. Also your other comments let me agree with you.
Yes there is only a few orders on the market but now you go down in history. As the first gem sold on the platform. I had no idea it was undervalued and to be honest I figured I was supporting you as a seller. Jewels is not my area of expertise of course, I'm a coder.
Just recently we sold LAND on the platform! That is very significant. Historically significant. So yes there is only a few orders.
Do other people see the same FLAW that you see?? YES THEY DO! But just like Bitcoin didn't have many users at first neither did we. It's growing. And so will the platform I work 10 hour days to improve it, today my damn account was hacked because of how many people target me I really have been giving you a lot of patience and will give you more as well.
We have a lot of ideas to get sellers and speed things up like the bitmessage relay server, a block explorer that I will use as an electrum style node, and things that will hopefully merge us to the web. More templates are on the way so you won't need to use the custom one anymore, so many things are being coded.
BitBay has double deposit escrow, that is as practical as it gets and when the peg is done it will be like the holy trinity. It will hopefully be what you think it can be. By the way, you aren't a Python coder by chance?!
So let me make an analogy that I know you appreciate. It is the FLAWS that differentiate a diamond from zirconium.
October 18, 2017, 12:28:36 AM
And just for further clarification so you understand my perspective as a seller, this is my balance now after providing the mineral and paying for shipping out of pocket: $943.344864
Initial investment: $950 so results are loss of $6.655136 plus the $5.5 on priority shipping, loss of ~$12 and my fancy piece of tourmaline. My _ONLY_ recourse now is to sit on these BAY coins and wait for them to go up, which is not the reason I purchased them.
that figure is based on the current value of the BAY. I hope this clearly exemplifies the reality of the short term seller (most wish to be paid when they sell the items most likely not to sit on BAY for a long time thereafter).
When I purchased the BAY it was at $.033. So you can see that by selling a $333 item that I have actually earned (less than) ZERO. If you don't see this as a problem then I don't know how else to explain.
You must consider that there are going to be different players in this game because you have merged the thought streams, or trains so to speak. You need to think about the sellers not just the investors. The investors have _NOTHING_ without the popular use of your software and who will create that use if not the sellers? The fact that it's been some years and I login and see less than a page of listings is telling me that what I have communicated does have merit and should be considered. Anyway, that's my write up and interaction with BAY. I will check back later once it is being used more and there is more chance of the coins going up (in the moment not long term) than going down. Which means there needs to be more customers, which means there needs to be more sellers. I am not trying to be a jerk about this simply explaining some imperative logic that will be the success or fail of the system. Not my suggestions being that success or fail but what I just said, if not for my suggestion then some way needs to be found to GET THE SELLERS TO LIST THEIR ITEMS otherwise there cannot be prosperity for investors, sellers, customers, etc.
You can translate prosperity to: success of the system. this does not have to be $ or greed or nothing like that. simply a matter of: DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORKING? for me, with all things considered, it didn't work. I lost a tourmaline. Well, I didn't lose it I will look at it like a gift. I have been known to gift minerals and it looks like that one knew where it was going. I am stepping away from this. not with dissent or bad blood, I think that we did have a good communication but for me the bottom line remains- without sitting on the BAY and if/when they go up, I am down. Just boils down to practicality and it must be practical to achieve adoption. blessings.
Initial investment: $950 so results are loss of $6.655136 plus the $5.5 on priority shipping, loss of ~$12 and my fancy piece of tourmaline. My _ONLY_ recourse now is to sit on these BAY coins and wait for them to go up, which is not the reason I purchased them.
that figure is based on the current value of the BAY. I hope this clearly exemplifies the reality of the short term seller (most wish to be paid when they sell the items most likely not to sit on BAY for a long time thereafter).
When I purchased the BAY it was at $.033. So you can see that by selling a $333 item that I have actually earned (less than) ZERO. If you don't see this as a problem then I don't know how else to explain.
You must consider that there are going to be different players in this game because you have merged the thought streams, or trains so to speak. You need to think about the sellers not just the investors. The investors have _NOTHING_ without the popular use of your software and who will create that use if not the sellers? The fact that it's been some years and I login and see less than a page of listings is telling me that what I have communicated does have merit and should be considered. Anyway, that's my write up and interaction with BAY. I will check back later once it is being used more and there is more chance of the coins going up (in the moment not long term) than going down. Which means there needs to be more customers, which means there needs to be more sellers. I am not trying to be a jerk about this simply explaining some imperative logic that will be the success or fail of the system. Not my suggestions being that success or fail but what I just said, if not for my suggestion then some way needs to be found to GET THE SELLERS TO LIST THEIR ITEMS otherwise there cannot be prosperity for investors, sellers, customers, etc.
You can translate prosperity to: success of the system. this does not have to be $ or greed or nothing like that. simply a matter of: DOES IT WORK? IS IT WORKING? for me, with all things considered, it didn't work. I lost a tourmaline. Well, I didn't lose it I will look at it like a gift. I have been known to gift minerals and it looks like that one knew where it was going. I am stepping away from this. not with dissent or bad blood, I think that we did have a good communication but for me the bottom line remains- without sitting on the BAY and if/when they go up, I am down. Just boils down to practicality and it must be practical to achieve adoption. blessings.
October 17, 2017, 11:41:06 PM
*Let's just do it like this, it's easier for me to respond with accuracy to the actual topic(s)
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David:
"No I don't force people to put deposits up to increase the value of the currency. Hahahah"a how ridiculous. What a rude accusation. I've been around for years and hardly sold a coin. I've been coding the peg system to improve the value of YOUR investment. I could care less about what I make on this. My attitude isn't bad, you have now resorted to cursing. I appreciated your commentary and informed you about how and why inputs are reserved, you seem to think this can be done another way which I challenge you to try and you will see it is very bad design to not reserve inputs. It would be a logistical nightmare. Just because you insist I change thousands of lines of code doesn't mean I'm going to. I think you just don't understand how bitcoin works and you are insisting the software needs to be coded a certain way. I coded BitHalo 4 years ago when it wasn't even in an "altcoin" you think I was trying to increase the value of my Bitcoin bag too? Please spare me. This accusation is just really a lack of understanding on your part on how inputs and outputs work."
Aaron:
Actually the rudeness is only perceived. I am simply trying to communicate and in my standard mode of communication have resorted to an acronym that causes one to "curse" in their own minds. this is levity and a bit of joke. As to the statement about "forcing", I am re-reading the conversation now and I can see I did use that words, it was not intentional as obviously we are all beings of free will and can make our choices or so it seems. As I am a sovereign being I will claim 100% responsibility for my choices and acknowledge that you do not force people to do anything. Here is the ultimatum, however, the code does force a deposit of a reasonable percentage (the amount is debatable depending on a range of parameters as we have discussed, nonetheless without a relevant amount there is no possibility of sale or to be received as a 'serious' or 'actual' offer.
The bad attitude comment is a result of a repetitive dialogue that seems to be an ineffective communication. Because your continued insist that I don't know how bitcoin works! This is funny to me as I have been working with bitcoin for many years. I was simply trying to explain a different way of viewing the equation, something that would have in my opinion favorable results. More of as a contribution of my time experience and perspective, to HELP. And because I was not being "heard" it has caused me to explore the topic as discussed. When you are talking about the "YOUR investment" thing, let's get one thing clear. My money was invested in your company. I bought $950 USD worth of bitbay. Is this to my benefit? Absolutely not. I have lost 30% of my investment and after this dialogue I am unsure if I will proceed at all, or even if I will hold the coins in hopes they go back to the $.033 that they were at when purchased. I am happy that you claim to not be motivated by currency but clearly you are motivated towards success. You are receiving my feedback as a personal slight or attack on your character so you point finger at me and say I am attacking you and feel territorial like you need to tell me that you are not in it for the money. Well you are in it for the fame, my friend. That is undeniable. I have seen your face and I have listened to your radio talk show. An hour of it and it was really good actually. I liked what you had to say because I feel that much of what you were discussing I have resonance with. So I chose to support bitbay. Now let's be really clear about this, I risked my money to SUPPORT BITBAY. No so I could gain not because I expected to make a profit from the coins themselves. I really dont care about that. I do care that they are not losing value. 30% down though, how is ever possible to ask people to tie up money that is not stable in escrow? This is not practical and my continued insistence on this matter is not because I think you will jump through hoops and rewrite your code but as a perspective that could provide some long term practicality to your mission.
And it is obvious economics that scarcity or money taken out of play causes the remaining coins to appreciate. This fact cannot be argued. I am simply applying the logic that I am observing to derive hypothetical conclusions. Regardless of your true intentions you should see that while I draw this conclusions so will many others. They don't know you to talk to you or ask your intentions or know if you are a good person or evil. All they have is the logic of their situation and some vidz that you published. And your defensiveness to such an "accusation" is troubling. Like we are two kids on the playground argueing. This is silly. you should see me as JOE SHMOE anybody who could come along to use a platform. I am the voice of the people at this point. One of the first people most likely who actually tried to list a store on your market and see what happens. And full circle back to my so called "lack of understanding". See how irrelevant that is? Whether I understand or not I am simply an investor and a seller trying to find some resolution to feel that my voice has been heard.
And yes, it can be done another way I did already explain that to you. It has nothing to do with bitcoin is to do with the protocol of your client. But I am sick of argueing about this because already I have given you more of my time than all that I have gained. On that note, you are welcome.
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David:
"You got communication from me because I received two chats from you one replying to my other. In the escrow window. I also did communicate it to you, you can unlock the escrow window and check the panel for messages. Perhaps you kept the client off for a day or two which would cause a delay in your receipt of messages or you simply didn't notice. I did communicate it takes a couple days to go from my shipping address to mexico."
Aaron:
There seems to be a fundamental communication breakdown happening. What I was explaining is that since I shipped the item and provided the tracking in the window of the pending contract I did not receive a response. Nor did I received a response when I asked you to verify that you did receive the item. Why did I ask that? Because I saw it was delivered to somebody that was *not you* as stated at usps.com. I was simply securing my side of the agreement by asking you that you did receive the item. Had I received a message from you saying anything about mexico or special handling post delivery I would have said "ok great, no problem!" . What I am telling you is that I recieved NO COMMUNICATION except for the initiation of the contract. So whether that is a problem on my side with bitmessage, a bug in the code, or whatnot. the bottom line is the same. unless you are calling me a liar, I received no communication other than the initiation of the contract and communication at this forum. Finally reading your response here, I can see it is acceptable to "unlock the escrow window" (which I have no idea if that was going to burn my coins or put the transaction through! let alone read the messages!) maybe I will see the messages you sent after opening that window. However without documentation and using client specific terminology, I had no way of knowing that was the course and that doing so would have possibly shown me the messages. As an aside, I did not receive that message until I clicked to "complete the transaction" which I was not sure about clicking because I thought maybe it did that automatically when you confirmed it.
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David:
"You want linux documentation? Do you realize I code 10 hour days and the software is over 50k lines? There is actually a very old documentation included and even linked in the menu but it really needs to be updated(it's years old). If you think you can do better go ahead and code something like this yourself. Perhaps as a coder you can appreciate when people constantly insist on certain things being done. Consumers can be a bit unappreciative especially when some new technology emerges, I would hate to think you don't appreciate what goes into coding something like this? Perhaps a humble misunderstanding on your part? I've essentially responded to every message you sent here and on the client. You obviously got my shipping address. You sent me a message the other day and I responded on the client if you didn't get it then perhaps you need to check your connection to Bitmessage."
Aaron:
Actually I was mentioning the documentation because I couldnt read it and thus it presented ambiguouty in the use of the software. All I wanted was an answer to my question so I didnt click the wrong button. Really, I only read documentation for things I cant figure out. This would include client specific terminology such as that which is used in the BitHalo. And yes, I did hear you say on the vid or interview or whatnot that it was 50k lines of code. Congratulations! You are just starting out and you have 50k lines of code. I know how much time it took to clack out the last 20K lines that I wrote, and believe me I would not consider releasing it on the public until it was self explanatory, in other words, documentation included in the platform. I know it is likely you will take this personally I am not trying to slight you. As I said, I have much respect for what is done. I simply presented my thoughts about the matter in hopes over the long term it would be something more usable by more people. About my coding, I don't get paid for the job and then write the code. That is the difference. I don't have to answer to anyone because nobody has paid me. When they start paying me, you can be damn sure that I will listen to them and do everything I can to keep them feeling loved and happy about giving me their money.
And no there is no misunderstanding. We can point fingers all day he said she said and I can say you misunderstand me again. I only asked for an answer to my question and mentioned as an aside and clarifying note that the docs dont work on ubuntu! No big deal and you dont have to be so defensive. You are telling me to chill and I am telling you that there is nothing like a good pile of kratom to set the mind right! haha that is another joke but not really.
The one thing you are saying in this quote that allows me to feel we are somehow communicating is "perhaps you need to check your connection to Bitmessage" .. and I would say perhaps you are right. I am a laymen when it comes to bitmessage but I can see from my terminal window the report and it is reporting that the messages are being received, attempted decrypt, and subsequently passed on as is described in the functioning bitmessage. So unless the error is somehow less obvious which it very well may be...The error could very well be on my side and thats just fine I am perfectly happy to admit that but the point is, I was still in the dark over a substantial transaction and I was looking for answers to questions not getting them. Really I am not trying to argue but I feel like you are trying to make me look stupid and ignorant thereby discrediting what I have to say and thats inappropriate and just not right.
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David:
"Look you seem like a very nice person, relax. Be happy. I welcome coders and sellers and of course know that the software will keep improving. Just takes time and energy. I'm also stoked you sell gems, and think that is a great product to sell and will be happy to purchase more too when you list them. I explained guarantor options, custom deposits and the like. Just be patient and continue dialog and please don't get worked up without cause.
Also the currency isn't devaluing would you consider ETH devaluing too? It's more than 1/2 it's peak. Look at our yearly chart, it's excellent. The peg is also meant to get rid of the volatility and give solid price growth."
Aaron:
Actually I am a raging asshole if you piss me off. In general I am a very heart centered spiritual being who wishes to see the world become a better place. Pan has two sides. Right now I am happy and I have been happy because I am happy about being alive and this was a big challenge for me to stop the alcoholism about nine months ago and pull my head out of my ass. Now I am actually feeling powerful again so thanks for the sentiment. Plz just dont try to make me look stupid when I am only trying to help you. I am not getting worked up but you keep dismissing my statements like I am ignorant or I dont know about what I am talking about. Which makes me thing they fall on deaf ears and makes me think I have wasted all that time. ALL I WANTED WAS FOR TO BE LISTENED TO AND ACKNOWLEDGED. I didnt expect you to jump up and right so many lines of code which by the way is one fairly simple function that serves as a gateway for the ordering process. but anyway its not happening so it doesn't matter.
ETH is a joke, BTC is a f*ckin joke (but I do give big credit to 'Satoshi' for the amazing concepts and application). There simply is being on the right train and the train I am riding is the one that says "THIS WILL HELP FIX THE WORLDS PROBLEMS" and thats about the bottom line. As you may or may not understand about me, I dont care about money either. But I do care about eating, having shelter, and not being vampired from so I dont work for free (very often). I would like to say my investments (which are FEW) go up but at this time what is the big consideration is this: WHICH ONE WILL LIVE? in my opinion BTC and ETH were bought by the beast a long time ago and thus they control the market now. Bitbay is interesting because it presents an actual use case. However, the limitation parameters included in the use are as I have been trying to explain, debilitating for any regular person to list an inventory. And yes, you did explain the various modes that could be applied but they are not relevant to my situation. As I said, I am not willing to drop $25K on bitbay just so I can list more items that at best (at this time) would move slowly and thus my earnings (if any) would be the result of the stockpile of BAY that is in escrow gaining value, not from sales of the minerals. If the BAY didn't gain value, I would lose plenty and even the minerals that were converted to BAY may be nullified. This all depends on the market value of the BAY and right now it's not stable for me to ever consider such a notion.
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David:
"Also not sure why so many traders don't have the patience to look at yearly charts. Yes thanks for the feedback, thanks for pointing out things you wish would be different. Thanks for listing the items and sorry if there was any miscommunication, or impression you were given that was not positive. Certainly it was not my intention to claim what you do or don't know. However please attempt to code this yourself if you think it should be a certain way. I can assure you it should not be the way you think it should be. And only until Bitcoin has lightning networks would it even barely make sense to not reserve funds. Nonetheless they should still be reserved because you need to place deposits to prevent breaking contracts.
Please take a look at the rolling peg, which will certainly force a stable price and allow for price growth. Its a decentralized peg and it's pretty common thing talked about on this thread.
I'm available on slack too, you just need to calm down man. We have done over 1000 contracts using this."
Aaron:
Thats fine to look at the yearly charts if the goal was to earn money from investing in BAY. However, that was NOT my goal at all! I have other coin that is doing just fine and see no reason to change from that. I purchased the BAY so I could USE THEM so I could list items and sell my minerals. It is ultimately relevant in the -short term- and totally irrelevant in the long term, my particular use case and current gain or loss of the BAY token. As I said, I really didn't get paid at all if I cashed out right now, even after sending the mineral. The best I can do is wait and hope they go back to what they were when I purchased them before doing so. Or, continue to list minerals, of which may very well gain or lose me money. So you see by merging these two trains of thought the result is that the -short term- is imperative (to others actually using the platform or not) .. I didn't sign on to invest long term in BAY, I signed on to sell minerals for cryptos. Also I have heard discussion of the rolling peg and it's an interesting proposition. However it is moot as I am simply attempting to list the minerals without having to spend tons of money. So it will be one stone at a time if I do continue to list.
And understanding that you have done plenty of contracts with BAY, that is not the issue. obviously I trusted your system with $950 as a beta test for my purpose. I know that it works, that was never the question. What you perceive as frustration and being upset is simply my attempts to communicate and feel like you have success in receiving the communications. Our conversation did not allow me to feel like I was even understood but I can see now that at least the concepts have been acknowledged. About coding it myself, I would not, I have plenty of things to do right now like getting my LIFE in order which I can't even seem to do that! haha so it's a bit laughable suggestion. Change one function and the whole piece of software is different. I never said the deposit should not be reserved, quite the contrary. I said that by allowing listings and then only allowing the deposit to be pulled from the account at the time of purchase is possible and not at all that complicated (in my opinion!). If I am a total idiot for saying this then please hang me from a cross now. Anything is possible it is simply a matter of goals and direction.
Also I think there was a bit of misunderstanding in my original proposition which was in the form of a "think-tank" idea which could be played with or not. I did not insist that you change your code or rewrite the whole thing. What I did insist on is that we had accurate communication which I why I have been responding back with my perspective and attempting to establish such. Obviously it's your baby and you will write it how you will. Yet it should also be obvious that my voice is the very real voice of the people. albeit not the typical moron in the world today so maybe I have a bit more to say. My communication was not meant to be argumentative, or angry. Perhaps a bit frustrated in attempting to communicate but other than that, all fine.
And about the mineral, you are quite welcome! And thank you for a great exchange which is actually the first mineral I have traded for crypto's. I genuinely hope that you enjoy that mineral it is truly one of a kind and almost was not sold (I keep a selection of what I think to be the 'choice' and rare pieces). Chrome tourmaline is rare and fully terminated chrome tourmaline, well, I have only seen one piece in 25 years and hopefully it's in your hands now.
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David:
"BY THE WAY... your contract already got cleared and you already got paid...
9bfcb6a48873f016611ef77304f3654cb391d35fde1e80c5eea1cf26da34dc9f
If you didn't get my confirmation request you might want to check Bitmessage to see if you have no connections. Or if you want I can link you to Bitmessages binary where you can check your inbox manually."
Aaron:
I did read that you said it was released, the escrow. the issue was that I didnt know which to click "yes" or "no" for "the client is waiting for a response. Would you like to open the escrow window" .. I didn't want to break anything! So I clicked yes and now I can see the response and apparently the bitmessage is working fine. I dont know why it didnt show up before.. However, it all looks good now. Ok, so you can see that as a new user I was a bit concerned only due to not receiving the communication and having a timer ticking. Like I said it's a $1K (essentially) but at minimum a $533 timer so it was a bit relevant to me. I can chill for sure but when the timer is ticking, it's ticking. The communication was the only problem there really.
in closure, I would like to apologies if I sounded rude on your side of things that was never my goal. Simply the goal to communicate a perspective. Then also have some word about the order. But most of this typing has just been to communicate a perspective. I do admit that one of the comments was not very friendly as was a result of being slightly frustrated. I didnt perceive it to be unfriendly at the time of writing but upon review I can see how that would have been received. if I didn't appreciate this project and have a bunch of hope that it will work (for the worlds sake!!) I wouldnt have bothered with such an extensive communication. thank you for your time and efforts! I wish you (and all) the best !
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David:
"No I don't force people to put deposits up to increase the value of the currency. Hahahah"a how ridiculous. What a rude accusation. I've been around for years and hardly sold a coin. I've been coding the peg system to improve the value of YOUR investment. I could care less about what I make on this. My attitude isn't bad, you have now resorted to cursing. I appreciated your commentary and informed you about how and why inputs are reserved, you seem to think this can be done another way which I challenge you to try and you will see it is very bad design to not reserve inputs. It would be a logistical nightmare. Just because you insist I change thousands of lines of code doesn't mean I'm going to. I think you just don't understand how bitcoin works and you are insisting the software needs to be coded a certain way. I coded BitHalo 4 years ago when it wasn't even in an "altcoin" you think I was trying to increase the value of my Bitcoin bag too? Please spare me. This accusation is just really a lack of understanding on your part on how inputs and outputs work."
Aaron:
Actually the rudeness is only perceived. I am simply trying to communicate and in my standard mode of communication have resorted to an acronym that causes one to "curse" in their own minds. this is levity and a bit of joke. As to the statement about "forcing", I am re-reading the conversation now and I can see I did use that words, it was not intentional as obviously we are all beings of free will and can make our choices or so it seems. As I am a sovereign being I will claim 100% responsibility for my choices and acknowledge that you do not force people to do anything. Here is the ultimatum, however, the code does force a deposit of a reasonable percentage (the amount is debatable depending on a range of parameters as we have discussed, nonetheless without a relevant amount there is no possibility of sale or to be received as a 'serious' or 'actual' offer.
The bad attitude comment is a result of a repetitive dialogue that seems to be an ineffective communication. Because your continued insist that I don't know how bitcoin works! This is funny to me as I have been working with bitcoin for many years. I was simply trying to explain a different way of viewing the equation, something that would have in my opinion favorable results. More of as a contribution of my time experience and perspective, to HELP. And because I was not being "heard" it has caused me to explore the topic as discussed. When you are talking about the "YOUR investment" thing, let's get one thing clear. My money was invested in your company. I bought $950 USD worth of bitbay. Is this to my benefit? Absolutely not. I have lost 30% of my investment and after this dialogue I am unsure if I will proceed at all, or even if I will hold the coins in hopes they go back to the $.033 that they were at when purchased. I am happy that you claim to not be motivated by currency but clearly you are motivated towards success. You are receiving my feedback as a personal slight or attack on your character so you point finger at me and say I am attacking you and feel territorial like you need to tell me that you are not in it for the money. Well you are in it for the fame, my friend. That is undeniable. I have seen your face and I have listened to your radio talk show. An hour of it and it was really good actually. I liked what you had to say because I feel that much of what you were discussing I have resonance with. So I chose to support bitbay. Now let's be really clear about this, I risked my money to SUPPORT BITBAY. No so I could gain not because I expected to make a profit from the coins themselves. I really dont care about that. I do care that they are not losing value. 30% down though, how is ever possible to ask people to tie up money that is not stable in escrow? This is not practical and my continued insistence on this matter is not because I think you will jump through hoops and rewrite your code but as a perspective that could provide some long term practicality to your mission.
And it is obvious economics that scarcity or money taken out of play causes the remaining coins to appreciate. This fact cannot be argued. I am simply applying the logic that I am observing to derive hypothetical conclusions. Regardless of your true intentions you should see that while I draw this conclusions so will many others. They don't know you to talk to you or ask your intentions or know if you are a good person or evil. All they have is the logic of their situation and some vidz that you published. And your defensiveness to such an "accusation" is troubling. Like we are two kids on the playground argueing. This is silly. you should see me as JOE SHMOE anybody who could come along to use a platform. I am the voice of the people at this point. One of the first people most likely who actually tried to list a store on your market and see what happens. And full circle back to my so called "lack of understanding". See how irrelevant that is? Whether I understand or not I am simply an investor and a seller trying to find some resolution to feel that my voice has been heard.
And yes, it can be done another way I did already explain that to you. It has nothing to do with bitcoin is to do with the protocol of your client. But I am sick of argueing about this because already I have given you more of my time than all that I have gained. On that note, you are welcome.
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David:
"You got communication from me because I received two chats from you one replying to my other. In the escrow window. I also did communicate it to you, you can unlock the escrow window and check the panel for messages. Perhaps you kept the client off for a day or two which would cause a delay in your receipt of messages or you simply didn't notice. I did communicate it takes a couple days to go from my shipping address to mexico."
Aaron:
There seems to be a fundamental communication breakdown happening. What I was explaining is that since I shipped the item and provided the tracking in the window of the pending contract I did not receive a response. Nor did I received a response when I asked you to verify that you did receive the item. Why did I ask that? Because I saw it was delivered to somebody that was *not you* as stated at usps.com. I was simply securing my side of the agreement by asking you that you did receive the item. Had I received a message from you saying anything about mexico or special handling post delivery I would have said "ok great, no problem!" . What I am telling you is that I recieved NO COMMUNICATION except for the initiation of the contract. So whether that is a problem on my side with bitmessage, a bug in the code, or whatnot. the bottom line is the same. unless you are calling me a liar, I received no communication other than the initiation of the contract and communication at this forum. Finally reading your response here, I can see it is acceptable to "unlock the escrow window" (which I have no idea if that was going to burn my coins or put the transaction through! let alone read the messages!) maybe I will see the messages you sent after opening that window. However without documentation and using client specific terminology, I had no way of knowing that was the course and that doing so would have possibly shown me the messages. As an aside, I did not receive that message until I clicked to "complete the transaction" which I was not sure about clicking because I thought maybe it did that automatically when you confirmed it.
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David:
"You want linux documentation? Do you realize I code 10 hour days and the software is over 50k lines? There is actually a very old documentation included and even linked in the menu but it really needs to be updated(it's years old). If you think you can do better go ahead and code something like this yourself. Perhaps as a coder you can appreciate when people constantly insist on certain things being done. Consumers can be a bit unappreciative especially when some new technology emerges, I would hate to think you don't appreciate what goes into coding something like this? Perhaps a humble misunderstanding on your part? I've essentially responded to every message you sent here and on the client. You obviously got my shipping address. You sent me a message the other day and I responded on the client if you didn't get it then perhaps you need to check your connection to Bitmessage."
Aaron:
Actually I was mentioning the documentation because I couldnt read it and thus it presented ambiguouty in the use of the software. All I wanted was an answer to my question so I didnt click the wrong button. Really, I only read documentation for things I cant figure out. This would include client specific terminology such as that which is used in the BitHalo. And yes, I did hear you say on the vid or interview or whatnot that it was 50k lines of code. Congratulations! You are just starting out and you have 50k lines of code. I know how much time it took to clack out the last 20K lines that I wrote, and believe me I would not consider releasing it on the public until it was self explanatory, in other words, documentation included in the platform. I know it is likely you will take this personally I am not trying to slight you. As I said, I have much respect for what is done. I simply presented my thoughts about the matter in hopes over the long term it would be something more usable by more people. About my coding, I don't get paid for the job and then write the code. That is the difference. I don't have to answer to anyone because nobody has paid me. When they start paying me, you can be damn sure that I will listen to them and do everything I can to keep them feeling loved and happy about giving me their money.
And no there is no misunderstanding. We can point fingers all day he said she said and I can say you misunderstand me again. I only asked for an answer to my question and mentioned as an aside and clarifying note that the docs dont work on ubuntu! No big deal and you dont have to be so defensive. You are telling me to chill and I am telling you that there is nothing like a good pile of kratom to set the mind right! haha that is another joke but not really.
The one thing you are saying in this quote that allows me to feel we are somehow communicating is "perhaps you need to check your connection to Bitmessage" .. and I would say perhaps you are right. I am a laymen when it comes to bitmessage but I can see from my terminal window the report and it is reporting that the messages are being received, attempted decrypt, and subsequently passed on as is described in the functioning bitmessage. So unless the error is somehow less obvious which it very well may be...The error could very well be on my side and thats just fine I am perfectly happy to admit that but the point is, I was still in the dark over a substantial transaction and I was looking for answers to questions not getting them. Really I am not trying to argue but I feel like you are trying to make me look stupid and ignorant thereby discrediting what I have to say and thats inappropriate and just not right.
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David:
"Look you seem like a very nice person, relax. Be happy. I welcome coders and sellers and of course know that the software will keep improving. Just takes time and energy. I'm also stoked you sell gems, and think that is a great product to sell and will be happy to purchase more too when you list them. I explained guarantor options, custom deposits and the like. Just be patient and continue dialog and please don't get worked up without cause.
Also the currency isn't devaluing would you consider ETH devaluing too? It's more than 1/2 it's peak. Look at our yearly chart, it's excellent. The peg is also meant to get rid of the volatility and give solid price growth."
Aaron:
Actually I am a raging asshole if you piss me off. In general I am a very heart centered spiritual being who wishes to see the world become a better place. Pan has two sides. Right now I am happy and I have been happy because I am happy about being alive and this was a big challenge for me to stop the alcoholism about nine months ago and pull my head out of my ass. Now I am actually feeling powerful again so thanks for the sentiment. Plz just dont try to make me look stupid when I am only trying to help you. I am not getting worked up but you keep dismissing my statements like I am ignorant or I dont know about what I am talking about. Which makes me thing they fall on deaf ears and makes me think I have wasted all that time. ALL I WANTED WAS FOR TO BE LISTENED TO AND ACKNOWLEDGED. I didnt expect you to jump up and right so many lines of code which by the way is one fairly simple function that serves as a gateway for the ordering process. but anyway its not happening so it doesn't matter.
ETH is a joke, BTC is a f*ckin joke (but I do give big credit to 'Satoshi' for the amazing concepts and application). There simply is being on the right train and the train I am riding is the one that says "THIS WILL HELP FIX THE WORLDS PROBLEMS" and thats about the bottom line. As you may or may not understand about me, I dont care about money either. But I do care about eating, having shelter, and not being vampired from so I dont work for free (very often). I would like to say my investments (which are FEW) go up but at this time what is the big consideration is this: WHICH ONE WILL LIVE? in my opinion BTC and ETH were bought by the beast a long time ago and thus they control the market now. Bitbay is interesting because it presents an actual use case. However, the limitation parameters included in the use are as I have been trying to explain, debilitating for any regular person to list an inventory. And yes, you did explain the various modes that could be applied but they are not relevant to my situation. As I said, I am not willing to drop $25K on bitbay just so I can list more items that at best (at this time) would move slowly and thus my earnings (if any) would be the result of the stockpile of BAY that is in escrow gaining value, not from sales of the minerals. If the BAY didn't gain value, I would lose plenty and even the minerals that were converted to BAY may be nullified. This all depends on the market value of the BAY and right now it's not stable for me to ever consider such a notion.
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David:
"Also not sure why so many traders don't have the patience to look at yearly charts. Yes thanks for the feedback, thanks for pointing out things you wish would be different. Thanks for listing the items and sorry if there was any miscommunication, or impression you were given that was not positive. Certainly it was not my intention to claim what you do or don't know. However please attempt to code this yourself if you think it should be a certain way. I can assure you it should not be the way you think it should be. And only until Bitcoin has lightning networks would it even barely make sense to not reserve funds. Nonetheless they should still be reserved because you need to place deposits to prevent breaking contracts.
Please take a look at the rolling peg, which will certainly force a stable price and allow for price growth. Its a decentralized peg and it's pretty common thing talked about on this thread.
I'm available on slack too, you just need to calm down man. We have done over 1000 contracts using this."
Aaron:
Thats fine to look at the yearly charts if the goal was to earn money from investing in BAY. However, that was NOT my goal at all! I have other coin that is doing just fine and see no reason to change from that. I purchased the BAY so I could USE THEM so I could list items and sell my minerals. It is ultimately relevant in the -short term- and totally irrelevant in the long term, my particular use case and current gain or loss of the BAY token. As I said, I really didn't get paid at all if I cashed out right now, even after sending the mineral. The best I can do is wait and hope they go back to what they were when I purchased them before doing so. Or, continue to list minerals, of which may very well gain or lose me money. So you see by merging these two trains of thought the result is that the -short term- is imperative (to others actually using the platform or not) .. I didn't sign on to invest long term in BAY, I signed on to sell minerals for cryptos. Also I have heard discussion of the rolling peg and it's an interesting proposition. However it is moot as I am simply attempting to list the minerals without having to spend tons of money. So it will be one stone at a time if I do continue to list.
And understanding that you have done plenty of contracts with BAY, that is not the issue. obviously I trusted your system with $950 as a beta test for my purpose. I know that it works, that was never the question. What you perceive as frustration and being upset is simply my attempts to communicate and feel like you have success in receiving the communications. Our conversation did not allow me to feel like I was even understood but I can see now that at least the concepts have been acknowledged. About coding it myself, I would not, I have plenty of things to do right now like getting my LIFE in order which I can't even seem to do that! haha so it's a bit laughable suggestion. Change one function and the whole piece of software is different. I never said the deposit should not be reserved, quite the contrary. I said that by allowing listings and then only allowing the deposit to be pulled from the account at the time of purchase is possible and not at all that complicated (in my opinion!). If I am a total idiot for saying this then please hang me from a cross now. Anything is possible it is simply a matter of goals and direction.
Also I think there was a bit of misunderstanding in my original proposition which was in the form of a "think-tank" idea which could be played with or not. I did not insist that you change your code or rewrite the whole thing. What I did insist on is that we had accurate communication which I why I have been responding back with my perspective and attempting to establish such. Obviously it's your baby and you will write it how you will. Yet it should also be obvious that my voice is the very real voice of the people. albeit not the typical moron in the world today so maybe I have a bit more to say. My communication was not meant to be argumentative, or angry. Perhaps a bit frustrated in attempting to communicate but other than that, all fine.
And about the mineral, you are quite welcome! And thank you for a great exchange which is actually the first mineral I have traded for crypto's. I genuinely hope that you enjoy that mineral it is truly one of a kind and almost was not sold (I keep a selection of what I think to be the 'choice' and rare pieces). Chrome tourmaline is rare and fully terminated chrome tourmaline, well, I have only seen one piece in 25 years and hopefully it's in your hands now.
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David:
"BY THE WAY... your contract already got cleared and you already got paid...
9bfcb6a48873f016611ef77304f3654cb391d35fde1e80c5eea1cf26da34dc9f
If you didn't get my confirmation request you might want to check Bitmessage to see if you have no connections. Or if you want I can link you to Bitmessages binary where you can check your inbox manually."
Aaron:
I did read that you said it was released, the escrow. the issue was that I didnt know which to click "yes" or "no" for "the client is waiting for a response. Would you like to open the escrow window" .. I didn't want to break anything! So I clicked yes and now I can see the response and apparently the bitmessage is working fine. I dont know why it didnt show up before.. However, it all looks good now. Ok, so you can see that as a new user I was a bit concerned only due to not receiving the communication and having a timer ticking. Like I said it's a $1K (essentially) but at minimum a $533 timer so it was a bit relevant to me. I can chill for sure but when the timer is ticking, it's ticking. The communication was the only problem there really.
in closure, I would like to apologies if I sounded rude on your side of things that was never my goal. Simply the goal to communicate a perspective. Then also have some word about the order. But most of this typing has just been to communicate a perspective. I do admit that one of the comments was not very friendly as was a result of being slightly frustrated. I didnt perceive it to be unfriendly at the time of writing but upon review I can see how that would have been received. if I didn't appreciate this project and have a bunch of hope that it will work (for the worlds sake!!) I wouldnt have bothered with such an extensive communication. thank you for your time and efforts! I wish you (and all) the best !
October 17, 2017, 10:05:07 PM
Well I should get back my dzimbeck account shortly. The outcome is looking really positive. 
What a day.
What a day.
October 17, 2017, 07:41:56 PM
...
Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
ok, I understand that there are many different ways to viewing the same equation and also different results to be derived. my perspective is from that of a programmer and also that of a business owner who has done internet sales since 2004, with a fair degree of success I might add. Further, I have been watching google and ebay and paypal and facebook all evolve from nothing into the behemoth corporate entities that they now are. it is my view that anything can be accomplished it is simple a matter of goals and direction.
however, if it is not the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then it seems the point is moot. if it was the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then the parameters would change. you can call it scalability but I will call is simply 'usability' and 'adaptability'. it is a far bigger topic than my trivial needs, it is more the bigger sphere of adoption or lack thereof. a student of human psychology I can pretty much guarantee a rigorous and challenging adoption process if the way is not paved with roses and glittering gold you will find reluctance for the masses to adopt the technology. this is a bit of a joke but only as exaggeration. you can't coax people into using a system by asking them to place large deposits of potentially devaluing currency just to show their items. that just doesn't make sense to me. my suggestion there is that you would need some sort of very big advertising campaign (which I am personally not a fan of, I like when systems evolve from grass roots of participants inspiration resulting in ongoing support and expansion).
there must be some point of entry that offers reasons to participate.. such as the goal of potentially earning. that said, our current transaction is causing a bit of befuddlement on my side. I shipped the item, it arrived last saturday as indicated by the tracking. I did send a message to you using the client with the tracking and a request for verification of received. so far I have not heard back and the timer is still ticking. to be honest I am not sure if you have received my messages because I get some error messages when I close the bithalo saying something like 'you still have unsent messages in the box, proceed?' the messages appear to be sent when I click the pending contract but so far thats all the data I have about this transaction. As it stands, I have to lose about $1000. With the clock ticking and no response, I am left to wonder if that is what will happen. This is really not a fair position to be in for me. I did my job with perfection, now I Just wait. communication would make it all OK. why did I say $1000 when it was a $333 sale? Well, the mineral is worth easily $800. I sold it for $333 because that is essentially what I paid for it in trade value and I thought it would be nice to offer it at a good discount as my first bitbay listing. Besides, receiving cryptos is better for me. However, in person or online in a shop it is likely to have sold at $800, when it did sell. Along with the $200 deposit of coins that I purchased to list the item.
I share this with you not as a complaint but as perspective so you can see from both sides of the fence what is going on. currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. It is a windows .doc file and I am running linux. There were permission problems when I tried to access from the client and I granted the permission to the client to read it. However, the client is not displaying the documentation as I imagine it is trying to shell out to a windows app which is not present on Ubuntu. So I am in the dark and right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" .. Really I dont know what I would like other than to have the transaction resolved and the coin back in my wallet. Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
Yeah well you got my messages and I saw yours so not sure what you are talking about. The item arrived at my San Diego PO Box. It takes a couple days for them to transport it to Mexico. If you "stand to lose" 300 dollars I would stand to lose 600 would I not? I already cleared the contract.
And yeah, again. Deposits is not a limiting factor, it should be the industry standard. A user who doesn't have funds to deposit would be physically unable to enter into a contract anyways. Because the funds are also tied into escrow, it's totally unreasonable to expect other buyers to wait weeks for a deal to clear to free up a tiny amount of funds. The change system chops everything into smaller inputs so users don't tie up a lot of funds to begin with.
By the way if you are wondering why I'm responding from this account it's because Bitcointalk isn't letting me log in from dzimbeck.
ok, I feel like we are talking in circles and as a reward for the generous contribution of my time and critical analysis of your work I am getting the response of a "bad attitude" (that is how I am receiving your typed words right now).
actually the failure to address my very specific question, is clearly an indicator that you are not even processing the information I have presented, if you are you are ignoring the obvious facts of the matter and simply repeating yourself about points that have already been communicated. redundancy does nothing to clarify a point.
what I am deriving from this conversation is that you want the value of bitbay to go up so you are forcing users to deposit large amounts of a potentially devaluing currency. the fact of the matter is I have a fine bag of cryptos right now and I could easily convert thousands of dollars to bitbay to list more items. WHY SHOULD I? I have lost about 30% of very real money since trading my coins to bitbay. If this sale actually clears then that would put me at simply the loss of an $800 mineral and just about breaking even on the coins if I cash everything back out to what it was. When all is said and done, that is me losing money and time and energy even when the sales go through. The only way this will not happen is if I hold onto these bay coins hoping they will go back up enough for me to actually gain something? this is pure insanity. we can't slice the pie any other way to see any clarity this logic. the only winner in that stream, of logic is the one(s) holding all of the BAY. hmm...
Instead of saying "thanks the $800 mineral, thanks for the criticial analysis and bug report of my software, thanks for supporting bitbay and actually CARING about the real big picture" I am receiving veiled criticism of my own comprehension of the bitcoin protocol! wow!
"If you "stand to lose" 300 dollars I would stand to lose 600 would I not?"
- I am not sure how to interpret that statement as you did not deposit $600 worth of bitbay. You deposit $333 worth of bitbay (AT THE TIME OF THE CONTRACT which is now worth less by the way). I "stand to lose" my $200 deposit which I placed to guarantee and the mineral. What else I have lost is the 30% value on the total of $950usd worth of bay that I bought before starting this mess.
Now, I would like an answer, the only answer that I REQUIRE from this discussion, I will cut and paste the question that I just asked which received no response:
currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. ... right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
And for your edification you mentioned that I received your messages? Did you read my post? I clearly stated that I have received ZERO communication from you via the bitbay client. What's more, I have no clue as to the logistics of your situation or that the package had to be delivered to mexico! wtf?! a communication from you would have let me know this and it would have let me know to be patient but I received ZERO communication from you. The redundancy is in hopes that you listen this time and perhaps it is A BUG or perhaps you didnt send me any messages. All I know is what I see. I hope you use the information I have provided to you and ACTUALLY READ MY POSTS because whether you agree with my perspective or not, you can see that the system has some bugs such as (NO LINUX DOCUMENTATION AVAILABLE) that need to be addressed. We don't all use windows here.
In summary, kindly answer the question that tells me whether to click the "YES" button or the "NO" button to the clients query. I DONT WANT TO BREAK THE CONTRACT ACCIDENTALLY. Thank you for your time !
No I don't force people to put deposits up to increase the value of the currency. Hahahaha how ridiculous. What a rude accusation. I've been around for years and hardly sold a coin. I've been coding the peg system to improve the value of YOUR investment. I could care less about what I make on this. My attitude isn't bad, you have now resorted to cursing. I appreciated your commentary and informed you about how and why inputs are reserved, you seem to think this can be done another way which I challenge you to try and you will see it is very bad design to not reserve inputs. It would be a logistical nightmare. Just because you insist I change thousands of lines of code doesn't mean I'm going to. I think you just don't understand how bitcoin works and you are insisting the software needs to be coded a certain way. I coded BitHalo 4 years ago when it wasn't even in an "altcoin" you think I was trying to increase the value of my Bitcoin bag too? Please spare me. This accusation is just really a lack of understanding on your part on how inputs and outputs work.
You got communication from me because I received two chats from you one replying to my other. In the escrow window. I also did communicate it to you, you can unlock the escrow window and check the panel for messages. Perhaps you kept the client off for a day or two which would cause a delay in your receipt of messages or you simply didn't notice. I did communicate it takes a couple days to go from my shipping address to mexico.
You want linux documentation? Do you realize I code 10 hour days and the software is over 50k lines? There is actually a very old documentation included and even linked in the menu but it really needs to be updated(it's years old). If you think you can do better go ahead and code something like this yourself. Perhaps as a coder you can appreciate when people constantly insist on certain things being done. Consumers can be a bit unappreciative especially when some new technology emerges, I would hate to think you don't appreciate what goes into coding something like this? Perhaps a humble misunderstanding on your part? I've essentially responded to every message you sent here and on the client. You obviously got my shipping address. You sent me a message the other day and I responded on the client if you didn't get it then perhaps you need to check your connection to Bitmessage.
Look you seem like a very nice person, relax. Be happy. I welcome coders and sellers and of course know that the software will keep improving. Just takes time and energy. I'm also stoked you sell gems, and think that is a great product to sell and will be happy to purchase more too when you list them. I explained guarantor options, custom deposits and the like. Just be patient and continue dialog and please don't get worked up without cause.
Also the currency isn't devaluing would you consider ETH devaluing too? It's more than 1/2 it's peak. Look at our yearly chart, it's excellent. The peg is also meant to get rid of the volatility and give solid price growth.
Also not sure why so many traders don't have the patience to look at yearly charts. Yes thanks for the feedback, thanks for pointing out things you wish would be different. Thanks for listing the items and sorry if there was any miscommunication, or impression you were given that was not positive. Certainly it was not my intention to claim what you do or don't know. However please attempt to code this yourself if you think it should be a certain way. I can assure you it should not be the way you think it should be. And only until Bitcoin has lightning networks would it even barely make sense to not reserve funds. Nonetheless they should still be reserved because you need to place deposits to prevent breaking contracts.
Please take a look at the rolling peg, which will certainly force a stable price and allow for price growth. Its a decentralized peg and it's pretty common thing talked about on this thread.
I'm available on slack too, you just need to calm down man. We have done over 1000 contracts using this.
BY THE WAY... your contract already got cleared and you already got paid...
9bfcb6a48873f016611ef77304f3654cb391d35fde1e80c5eea1cf26da34dc9f
If you didn't get my confirmation request you might want to check Bitmessage to see if you have no connections. Or if you want I can link you to Bitmessages binary where you can check your inbox manually.
October 17, 2017, 06:48:08 PM
...
Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
ok, I understand that there are many different ways to viewing the same equation and also different results to be derived. my perspective is from that of a programmer and also that of a business owner who has done internet sales since 2004, with a fair degree of success I might add. Further, I have been watching google and ebay and paypal and facebook all evolve from nothing into the behemoth corporate entities that they now are. it is my view that anything can be accomplished it is simple a matter of goals and direction.
however, if it is not the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then it seems the point is moot. if it was the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then the parameters would change. you can call it scalability but I will call is simply 'usability' and 'adaptability'. it is a far bigger topic than my trivial needs, it is more the bigger sphere of adoption or lack thereof. a student of human psychology I can pretty much guarantee a rigorous and challenging adoption process if the way is not paved with roses and glittering gold you will find reluctance for the masses to adopt the technology. this is a bit of a joke but only as exaggeration. you can't coax people into using a system by asking them to place large deposits of potentially devaluing currency just to show their items. that just doesn't make sense to me. my suggestion there is that you would need some sort of very big advertising campaign (which I am personally not a fan of, I like when systems evolve from grass roots of participants inspiration resulting in ongoing support and expansion).
there must be some point of entry that offers reasons to participate.. such as the goal of potentially earning. that said, our current transaction is causing a bit of befuddlement on my side. I shipped the item, it arrived last saturday as indicated by the tracking. I did send a message to you using the client with the tracking and a request for verification of received. so far I have not heard back and the timer is still ticking. to be honest I am not sure if you have received my messages because I get some error messages when I close the bithalo saying something like 'you still have unsent messages in the box, proceed?' the messages appear to be sent when I click the pending contract but so far thats all the data I have about this transaction. As it stands, I have to lose about $1000. With the clock ticking and no response, I am left to wonder if that is what will happen. This is really not a fair position to be in for me. I did my job with perfection, now I Just wait. communication would make it all OK. why did I say $1000 when it was a $333 sale? Well, the mineral is worth easily $800. I sold it for $333 because that is essentially what I paid for it in trade value and I thought it would be nice to offer it at a good discount as my first bitbay listing. Besides, receiving cryptos is better for me. However, in person or online in a shop it is likely to have sold at $800, when it did sell. Along with the $200 deposit of coins that I purchased to list the item.
I share this with you not as a complaint but as perspective so you can see from both sides of the fence what is going on. currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. It is a windows .doc file and I am running linux. There were permission problems when I tried to access from the client and I granted the permission to the client to read it. However, the client is not displaying the documentation as I imagine it is trying to shell out to a windows app which is not present on Ubuntu. So I am in the dark and right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" .. Really I dont know what I would like other than to have the transaction resolved and the coin back in my wallet. Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
Yeah well you got my messages and I saw yours so not sure what you are talking about. The item arrived at my San Diego PO Box. It takes a couple days for them to transport it to Mexico. If you "stand to lose" 300 dollars I would stand to lose 600 would I not? I already cleared the contract.
And yeah, again. Deposits is not a limiting factor, it should be the industry standard. A user who doesn't have funds to deposit would be physically unable to enter into a contract anyways. Because the funds are also tied into escrow, it's totally unreasonable to expect other buyers to wait weeks for a deal to clear to free up a tiny amount of funds. The change system chops everything into smaller inputs so users don't tie up a lot of funds to begin with.
By the way if you are wondering why I'm responding from this account it's because Bitcointalk isn't letting me log in from dzimbeck.
ok, I feel like we are talking in circles and as a reward for the generous contribution of my time and critical analysis of your work I am getting the response of a "bad attitude" (that is how I am receiving your typed words right now).
actually the failure to address my very specific question, is clearly an indicator that you are not even processing the information I have presented, if you are you are ignoring the obvious facts of the matter and simply repeating yourself about points that have already been communicated. redundancy does nothing to clarify a point.
what I am deriving from this conversation is that you want the value of bitbay to go up so you are forcing users to deposit large amounts of a potentially devaluing currency. the fact of the matter is I have a fine bag of cryptos right now and I could easily convert thousands of dollars to bitbay to list more items. WHY SHOULD I? I have lost about 30% of very real money since trading my coins to bitbay. If this sale actually clears then that would put me at simply the loss of an $800 mineral and just about breaking even on the coins if I cash everything back out to what it was. When all is said and done, that is me losing money and time and energy even when the sales go through. The only way this will not happen is if I hold onto these bay coins hoping they will go back up enough for me to actually gain something? this is pure insanity. we can't slice the pie any other way to see any clarity this logic. the only winner in that stream, of logic is the one(s) holding all of the BAY. hmm...
Instead of saying "thanks the $800 mineral, thanks for the criticial analysis and bug report of my software, thanks for supporting bitbay and actually CARING about the real big picture" I am receiving veiled criticism of my own comprehension of the bitcoin protocol! wow!
"If you "stand to lose" 300 dollars I would stand to lose 600 would I not?"
- I am not sure how to interpret that statement as you did not deposit $600 worth of bitbay. You deposit $333 worth of bitbay (AT THE TIME OF THE CONTRACT which is now worth less by the way). I "stand to lose" my $200 deposit which I placed to guarantee and the mineral. What else I have lost is the 30% value on the total of $950usd worth of bay that I bought before starting this mess.
Now, I would like an answer, the only answer that I REQUIRE from this discussion, I will cut and paste the question that I just asked which received no response:
currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. ... right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
And for your edification you mentioned that I received your messages? Did you read my post? I clearly stated that I have received ZERO communication from you via the bitbay client. What's more, I have no clue as to the logistics of your situation or that the package had to be delivered to mexico! wtf?! a communication from you would have let me know this and it would have let me know to be patient but I received ZERO communication from you. The redundancy is in hopes that you listen this time and perhaps it is A BUG or perhaps you didnt send me any messages. All I know is what I see. I hope you use the information I have provided to you and ACTUALLY READ MY POSTS because whether you agree with my perspective or not, you can see that the system has some bugs such as (NO LINUX DOCUMENTATION AVAILABLE) that need to be addressed. We don't all use windows here.
In summary, kindly answer the question that tells me whether to click the "YES" button or the "NO" button to the clients query. I DONT WANT TO BREAK THE CONTRACT ACCIDENTALLY. Thank you for your time !
October 17, 2017, 06:12:44 PM
Hey so I'm unable to log in from dzimbeck. It's got me a bit angry. If you guys get any messages from dzimbeck, ignore them. I'm going to email the mods and hopefully get this resolved immediately. Hopefully it wasn't hacked.
I can confirm that it is David using the BitBaydev account here.
October 17, 2017, 05:55:51 PM
Hey so I'm unable to log in from dzimbeck. It's got me a bit angry. If you guys get any messages from dzimbeck, ignore them. I'm going to email the mods and hopefully get this resolved immediately. Hopefully it wasn't hacked.
October 17, 2017, 05:54:13 PM
...
Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
ok, I understand that there are many different ways to viewing the same equation and also different results to be derived. my perspective is from that of a programmer and also that of a business owner who has done internet sales since 2004, with a fair degree of success I might add. Further, I have been watching google and ebay and paypal and facebook all evolve from nothing into the behemoth corporate entities that they now are. it is my view that anything can be accomplished it is simple a matter of goals and direction.
however, if it is not the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then it seems the point is moot. if it was the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then the parameters would change. you can call it scalability but I will call is simply 'usability' and 'adaptability'. it is a far bigger topic than my trivial needs, it is more the bigger sphere of adoption or lack thereof. a student of human psychology I can pretty much guarantee a rigorous and challenging adoption process if the way is not paved with roses and glittering gold you will find reluctance for the masses to adopt the technology. this is a bit of a joke but only as exaggeration. you can't coax people into using a system by asking them to place large deposits of potentially devaluing currency just to show their items. that just doesn't make sense to me. my suggestion there is that you would need some sort of very big advertising campaign (which I am personally not a fan of, I like when systems evolve from grass roots of participants inspiration resulting in ongoing support and expansion).
there must be some point of entry that offers reasons to participate.. such as the goal of potentially earning. that said, our current transaction is causing a bit of befuddlement on my side. I shipped the item, it arrived last saturday as indicated by the tracking. I did send a message to you using the client with the tracking and a request for verification of received. so far I have not heard back and the timer is still ticking. to be honest I am not sure if you have received my messages because I get some error messages when I close the bithalo saying something like 'you still have unsent messages in the box, proceed?' the messages appear to be sent when I click the pending contract but so far thats all the data I have about this transaction. As it stands, I have to lose about $1000. With the clock ticking and no response, I am left to wonder if that is what will happen. This is really not a fair position to be in for me. I did my job with perfection, now I Just wait. communication would make it all OK. why did I say $1000 when it was a $333 sale? Well, the mineral is worth easily $800. I sold it for $333 because that is essentially what I paid for it in trade value and I thought it would be nice to offer it at a good discount as my first bitbay listing. Besides, receiving cryptos is better for me. However, in person or online in a shop it is likely to have sold at $800, when it did sell. Along with the $200 deposit of coins that I purchased to list the item.
I share this with you not as a complaint but as perspective so you can see from both sides of the fence what is going on. currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. It is a windows .doc file and I am running linux. There were permission problems when I tried to access from the client and I granted the permission to the client to read it. However, the client is not displaying the documentation as I imagine it is trying to shell out to a windows app which is not present on Ubuntu. So I am in the dark and right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" .. Really I dont know what I would like other than to have the transaction resolved and the coin back in my wallet. Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
Yeah well you got my messages and I saw yours so not sure what you are talking about. The item arrived at my San Diego PO Box. It takes a couple days for them to transport it to Mexico. If you "stand to lose" 300 dollars I would stand to lose 600 would I not? I already cleared the contract.
And yeah, again. Deposits is not a limiting factor, it should be the industry standard. A user who doesn't have funds to deposit would be physically unable to enter into a contract anyways. Because the funds are also tied into escrow, it's totally unreasonable to expect other buyers to wait weeks for a deal to clear to free up a tiny amount of funds. The change system chops everything into smaller inputs so users don't tie up a lot of funds to begin with.
By the way if you are wondering why I'm responding from this account it's because Bitcointalk isn't letting me log in from dzimbeck.
October 17, 2017, 05:45:04 PM
...
Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
ok, I understand that there are many different ways to viewing the same equation and also different results to be derived. my perspective is from that of a programmer and also that of a business owner who has done internet sales since 2004, with a fair degree of success I might add. Further, I have been watching google and ebay and paypal and facebook all evolve from nothing into the behemoth corporate entities that they now are. it is my view that anything can be accomplished it is simple a matter of goals and direction.
however, if it is not the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then it seems the point is moot. if it was the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then the parameters would change. you can call it scalability but I will call is simply 'usability' and 'adaptability'. it is a far bigger topic than my trivial needs, it is more the bigger sphere of adoption or lack thereof. a student of human psychology I can pretty much guarantee a rigorous and challenging adoption process if the way is not paved with roses and glittering gold you will find reluctance for the masses to adopt the technology. this is a bit of a joke but only as exaggeration. you can't coax people into using a system by asking them to place large deposits of potentially devaluing currency just to show their items. that just doesn't make sense to me. my suggestion there is that you would need some sort of very big advertising campaign (which I am personally not a fan of, I like when systems evolve from grass roots of participants inspiration resulting in ongoing support and expansion).
there must be some point of entry that offers reasons to participate.. such as the goal of potentially earning. that said, our current transaction is causing a bit of befuddlement on my side. I shipped the item, it arrived last saturday as indicated by the tracking. I did send a message to you using the client with the tracking and a request for verification of received. so far I have not heard back and the timer is still ticking. to be honest I am not sure if you have received my messages because I get some error messages when I close the bithalo saying something like 'you still have unsent messages in the box, proceed?' the messages appear to be sent when I click the pending contract but so far thats all the data I have about this transaction. As it stands, I have to lose about $1000. With the clock ticking and no response, I am left to wonder if that is what will happen. This is really not a fair position to be in for me. I did my job with perfection, now I Just wait. communication would make it all OK. why did I say $1000 when it was a $333 sale? Well, the mineral is worth easily $800. I sold it for $333 because that is essentially what I paid for it in trade value and I thought it would be nice to offer it at a good discount as my first bitbay listing. Besides, receiving cryptos is better for me. However, in person or online in a shop it is likely to have sold at $800, when it did sell. Along with the $200 deposit of coins that I purchased to list the item.
I share this with you not as a complaint but as perspective so you can see from both sides of the fence what is going on. currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. It is a windows .doc file and I am running linux. There were permission problems when I tried to access from the client and I granted the permission to the client to read it. However, the client is not displaying the documentation as I imagine it is trying to shell out to a windows app which is not present on Ubuntu. So I am in the dark and right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" .. Really I dont know what I would like other than to have the transaction resolved and the coin back in my wallet. Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
I do understand your anxiety. I remember I felt the same first time I bought something on Ebay while they were something new. But rest assured, deals have been made with this software for 2.5 years now, and no one has lost anything so far. David is doing the finnishing touches of next release, so probably a little in authistic mode right now, but I'll draw his attention to this
October 17, 2017, 04:44:49 PM
...
Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
ok, I understand that there are many different ways to viewing the same equation and also different results to be derived. my perspective is from that of a programmer and also that of a business owner who has done internet sales since 2004, with a fair degree of success I might add. Further, I have been watching google and ebay and paypal and facebook all evolve from nothing into the behemoth corporate entities that they now are. it is my view that anything can be accomplished it is simple a matter of goals and direction.
however, if it is not the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then it seems the point is moot. if it was the intention to support a large amount of sellers and listings then the parameters would change. you can call it scalability but I will call is simply 'usability' and 'adaptability'. it is a far bigger topic than my trivial needs, it is more the bigger sphere of adoption or lack thereof. a student of human psychology I can pretty much guarantee a rigorous and challenging adoption process if the way is not paved with roses and glittering gold you will find reluctance for the masses to adopt the technology. this is a bit of a joke but only as exaggeration. you can't coax people into using a system by asking them to place large deposits of potentially devaluing currency just to show their items. that just doesn't make sense to me. my suggestion there is that you would need some sort of very big advertising campaign (which I am personally not a fan of, I like when systems evolve from grass roots of participants inspiration resulting in ongoing support and expansion).
there must be some point of entry that offers reasons to participate.. such as the goal of potentially earning. that said, our current transaction is causing a bit of befuddlement on my side. I shipped the item, it arrived last saturday as indicated by the tracking. I did send a message to you using the client with the tracking and a request for verification of received. so far I have not heard back and the timer is still ticking. to be honest I am not sure if you have received my messages because I get some error messages when I close the bithalo saying something like 'you still have unsent messages in the box, proceed?' the messages appear to be sent when I click the pending contract but so far thats all the data I have about this transaction. As it stands, I have to lose about $1000. With the clock ticking and no response, I am left to wonder if that is what will happen. This is really not a fair position to be in for me. I did my job with perfection, now I Just wait. communication would make it all OK. why did I say $1000 when it was a $333 sale? Well, the mineral is worth easily $800. I sold it for $333 because that is essentially what I paid for it in trade value and I thought it would be nice to offer it at a good discount as my first bitbay listing. Besides, receiving cryptos is better for me. However, in person or online in a shop it is likely to have sold at $800, when it did sell. Along with the $200 deposit of coins that I purchased to list the item.
I share this with you not as a complaint but as perspective so you can see from both sides of the fence what is going on. currently I requested to 'complete to contract' and it asked if I was sure and *I think* i am sure because I did my job and all. However it is a bit confusing because I couldnt read the documentation. It is a windows .doc file and I am running linux. There were permission problems when I tried to access from the client and I granted the permission to the client to read it. However, the client is not displaying the documentation as I imagine it is trying to shell out to a windows app which is not present on Ubuntu. So I am in the dark and right now the system is stuck in a dialogue window saying "The client it waiting for a response. Would you like to unlock the escrow window?" .. Really I dont know what I would like other than to have the transaction resolved and the coin back in my wallet. Can you let me know what I should be doing here? I dont want to lose my coin or break the contract. thanks.
October 17, 2017, 05:39:28 AM
A big thumb UP for Bitbay and it's community.
We are seeing development every month and it's development is ongoing.
Keep up the good work guys and gals !!
Regards Anoxy
We are seeing development every month and it's development is ongoing.
Keep up the good work guys and gals !!
Regards Anoxy
Yeah agreed and the new roadmap looks very juicy !
https://bitbay.market/roadmap/
October 16, 2017, 04:41:17 PM
A big thumb UP for Bitbay and it's community.
We are seeing development every month and it's development is ongoing.
Keep up the good work guys and gals !!
Regards Anoxy
We are seeing development every month and it's development is ongoing.
Keep up the good work guys and gals !!
Regards Anoxy
October 16, 2017, 06:57:55 AM
BitBay Community Update - Oct. 15th, 2017
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/76l6l8/bitbay_community_update_oct_15th_2017/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/76l6l8/bitbay_community_update_oct_15th_2017/
Thanks..
Nice to see so social developers.
October 15, 2017, 03:36:52 PM
OP is now updated with new infographics
October 15, 2017, 02:53:43 PM
BitBay Community Update - Oct. 15th, 2017
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/76l6l8/bitbay_community_update_oct_15th_2017/
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitBay/comments/76l6l8/bitbay_community_update_oct_15th_2017/
October 14, 2017, 01:08:50 AM
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Hey so I realize you think that you can just deduct when an order starts to fund but it doesn't work like that. Specific inputs need to be signed and then arranged peer to peer in order to broadcast and also arrange the other advanced commitments like the bomb tx. It's maybe something you could argue is a flaw in bitcoins design. However until we have things like lightning transactions it's really not realistic to over-engineer a way to not commit inputs.
The software is very strict. I very carefully do accounting on everything. This helps educate users on accounting, not to delegate funds they don't have and really helps scale things. In fact, this system was built to scale. There is no other Bitcoin software in existence that I'm aware of that does such complex change and input management.
I do know what you are saying in terms of your inventory. Like lets say you are a seller and hold 100k usd worth of gems and want to list half your inventory so the software is going to want at least 25k worth of inputs with a little padding assuming you put 50%.
However... a seller can even put 10% up if this is a concern. In your case you can in theory offer a nominal deposit. There are even guarantor contracts where you don't deposit however I would not recommend a buyer to take a guarantor with a high deposit on their end and low or non-existent on the other. So at least putting a nominal 5-10% of item value should be more than enough to get started and then when you really start selling gems and things kick off you can offer higher deposits on your inventory.
Think about where things are headed with any type of advancement in lightning networks or (maybe) some DPOS improvements we can start to see faster transactions and then be okay with being a little more lenient. However it is still not ideal to have a bunch of inventory listed that you are unable to deposit on. It would depend on your daily volume I suppose. Like if you predict it to be low enough to have the funds to deposit to somehow return to you. However please remember your X% will be locked in escrow!! And it will be locked for the entire duration of the shipment process which could be a couple weeks. You definitely do not want to backlog users nor "pause" anyone as they will turn somewhere else to buy. At the time being I cannot allow that as it would be a big design flaw and against the theory of a UTXO system to boot. There is also something else to consider and that is when we have the peg, maybe we can find a clever way to use frozen funds as collateral.
October 13, 2017, 02:08:09 PM
we need to be a bit careful about low volume... don't want to get bittrex delisting.. worth chucking in a few buys and even sells if you're mad enough to sell at this rate.
Pass this on to slack where we have a lot of bay followers.
Pass this on to slack where we have a lot of bay followers.
October 12, 2017, 09:42:38 PM
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Hey so let me explain why it is a bad idea to allow listing of items without forcing the reservation of funds. The reason is of course because of double spend but also because the limited number of inputs in an account. The BitBay Halo software breaks coins into multiple denominations of inputs for exactly this purpose so users can enjoy small and large orders without tying up their entire balance. Bitcoin itself works like a cash system so it's not possible to deduct X from your account without tying up inputs greater than that.
The thing is, when you say you have something for sale and you aren't reserving those inputs, then you might not actually have those inputs when the time comes. If you have multiple orders, all competing for the same input, logistically you would not be able to handle the incoming offers anyway because the inputs are stuck broadcasting. Also the seller wouldn't potentially have the money for the deposits anyways in that case.
What you will end up finding is the coding is very clever and designed for this exact purpose. This was definitely considered in advance, to handle lots of volume. Indeed it is other market designs that will not handle the volume when we will.
Now here is another thing and this is fairly important. When you list using custom contracts, you have no ability to set quantity. However in Cash for Coins, you do. That is because the templates are designed for a much more advanced user interaction with the markets.
So if you had a large volume of gems, instead of reposting them over and over, you can have a single order with quantity and inventory. Thus all the orders that come in could be bids.
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the suggestion was disallow spending more than the wallets available balance while checking in realtime (time of order) the balance and presenting the potential customer with an order that either 'available now' or 'paused'. if the balance was not present at the time of the customer viewing the listings it would show paused, while still allowing the listings to be present and viewed by the customer. the balance would be pulled from the wallet when the customer actually chose to proceed which would then disable additional customers from opening any more orders if the balance was not available. about listing multiples of a single listing, this is not possible for the materials that I have as each is unique. I will further explore the potential of what the system can do and perhaps that could be useful for other application but for now each item that I have is unique which would require plenty of money in escrow to even really get started.
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A trusted seller may also not be asked to put 50%. Even 25% is a pretty good amount because he will be the one to ship first, putting him out the item and the amount placed to prevent extortion. Since the sellers deposit is to prevent extortion and bad quality items.
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I have no issues putting the 50% down and even 100% would be fine if the listings were able to showed. I think there is something to the psychology behind a deposit percentage. this is all new stuff so it's interesting to experiment with the results. as a new seller or an active one, placing at least 50% deposit does show something to the potential customer as to the intention. of course nobody wants to lose their money
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Nobody would want to wait for a seller to be on hold or pause while waiting for an escrow to clear either. The reason is when you are shipping something it can take up to a week. The buyer will want to review the item make sure it is as described before even thinking to release escrow.
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I don't agree that nobody would wait. There could be a button that tells the seller of a customers interest which would cause the seller to deposit more funds. so there wouldnt be much waiting. If the item were unable to be viewed then nobody would ever know. and if it was a unique item that somebody actually did want at a good price, they would wait. especially now this is relevant because there is not a ton of people selling the same items. a reconfig on the some parameters would result in a much bigger listing database which is reciprocal to invite the customers. I don't think if the logic was placed at the right 'tier' of the code, it would introduce any problematic results. I do think it would be wise however to force a deposit to place have the listings viewable at all, to prevent spam of course.
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As a seller you might want to consider your daily volume. If a seller has high volume chances are he will quickly get the BitBay he needs for deposits.
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with what I sell, there isn't high daily volume. they are rare collectibles that don't have a large throughput. having the inventory able to be seen by the 'right person' is important. as it stands, I do plan to cycle back all of the BAY that I have to present listings when I have a bit of time to do so. and if the results are earnings then those too will be cycled back to present more items. it still is a relevant limitation parameter but it is doable. I am not just considering myself with this suggestion but the ability of the entire system to gain traction. I am considering what each person who shows up that could be listing their items, how they will feel about it and what is a possibility for them.
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I would say a seller starting out if buyers wanted to take the "risk" so to speak the seller could offer a 25% deposit on his end and that at least binds him in some way.
So I also would say setting a quantity in the Buy/Sell anything template essentially does what you are describing since all offers come in as counters and bids and the buyer would only be able to accept if he had enough inputs for those. Perhaps it is best to understand how Bitcoin actually works and see how inputs and outputs are structured. We have a video sort of scratching the surface to explain it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfxHWJ576c
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I have a fair understanding of how bitcoin works with the utxos and whatnot. I did notice that a single large deposit that was placed to the bithalo wallet had suggestion to split it up.. so I have considered this. but it's not so relevant if the transaction is simply prevented without that utxo available.
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By the way thanks for the feedback. We will get there one step at a time.
And actually I took your order for the tourmaline. This way you can get used to the process. Also you mention lack of photos in your order I should point out that I do think the description field allows basic HTML and also you might consider a link to imgur with more photos.
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of course I am very happy to help and participate in this project. I found bitbay just a few days ago it will require some moments for myself and the world (lol) to have understanding of what is actually relevant with a system like this. nothing like this has been available for people until this technology was presented! so thank you kindly for that. also, much gratitude for the mineral purchase, it is a liberating feeling to exchange to cryptos and not fiat!
and as an afterthough the imgur is a good suggestion I didn't consider thanks.
I can post some links on the future listings. kind greetings! Jump to: