BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg - page 243.

sidhujag

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1005

Quote from: Munti on September 13, 2016, 04:23:17 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

You totally underestimate the importance of price discovery in a currency. It's not just about stability or competition with other countries. It's also about "importing" inflation or deflation through trade, and thus strongly influence the very parameters you want to control like growth, unemployment etc. The effect of importet inflation/deflation mostly increases with decreasing size of country/economy. The effect is also bigger in relative open economies than in relative closed ones.
As to the rest, David and 3r197 already addressed that. I'd just like to add that no coin can survive in the long run if it doesn't get real users. I believe BitBay is in a position to get real users, and as they increase in numbers, traders actions will have less impact.

No I didn't underestimate what it means for a currency to be valued competitively depending on its place in the global trade marketplace... why do you think there's been battle to the bottom after plaza accord was signed? US is in the unique position of a global currency aswell serving import driven economies where it pays to be cheap.. Carry traders and large specs that look at economic numbers then place values based on fundamentals.. ofcourse if it doesn't go the way they want (JPY,CHF) then they intervene. In context of my original post you cannot just generate growth... you can set a price but something else will be negatively affected... you have to survive growth luls by innovation and creating incentive for velocity of money to rise... what you are postulating with the proposed system is that the incentive for M1 to increase or decrease which in turn affects liquidity/demand and ultimately price. I'm not convinced without reading some models on paper that such a system would do what its designed to do but hey stranger things have happened in crypto! Anyways it's worth a try especially if an exchange like Polo agrees to supporting the custom code needing to run it on their servers.

Munti

hero member

Activity: 661

Merit: 504

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

You totally underestimate the importance of price discovery in a currency. It's not just about stability or competition with other countries. It's also about "importing" inflation or deflation through trade, and thus strongly influence the very parameters you want to control like growth, unemployment etc. The effect of importet inflation/deflation mostly increases with decreasing size of country/economy. The effect is also bigger in relative open economies than in relative closed ones.
As to the rest, David and 3r197 already addressed that. I'd just like to add that no coin can survive in the long run if it doesn't get real users. I believe BitBay is in a position to get real users, and as they increase in numbers, traders actions will have less impact.

dzimbeck

legendary

Activity: 2412

Merit: 1044

Of course we want people to copy it, when its the right time. The whole idea is to give investors time to benefit from their investment. The point of changing variable names is to allow audits and deter cloning. Eventually the variable name obfuscation will also be removed.

Currently you can build from source by downloading the Bitbay source code obfuscated package and occasionally people have done that. It's fairly easy to audit and guarantee that the code itself is secure.

RJF19

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 250

AKA RJF - Since '14 - On line since '84

Quote from: sidhujag on September 13, 2016, 11:10:02 AM

Quote from: cryptohunter on September 13, 2016, 11:06:41 AM

Quote from: dzimbeck on September 12, 2016, 08:33:08 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

Yeah that's partly true. It depends on how miners vote. However my assumption is, miners will vote for whatever makes them more money. So if they see low volume and very low price they will deflate. If they see high volume they inflate.

But remember, investors can also watch those global deflation rates correct? So miners aren't doing anything that won't be seen coming a mile away.

Also perhaps if the software itself cast votes automatically by an algorithm then chances are miners will not be able to go against the algorithm just like it's hard to swim against a tide.

Finally, you can guarantee an exact dollar price if you deflate a lot. I'm not recommending it, but in theory that means a group of miners can do it like Tether but self backed and if one backer disappears then someone else can freeze gradually to their comfort level and take their place.

Extreme example: Deflate from 1 billion to 1000 coins, back with 1000 dollars and now it's exactly a dollar a coin. If that backer leaves anyone can take his place.

Also secondary markets for frozen coins is not a design flaw, it's one of the best features. Since frozen coins can be moved with a 3 month time lock, they serve as credit swaps, bonds, and even trustless loans. So we hope to see that happen

As to not having a whitepaper the community specifically asked me not to do this since it would give way too technical of a breakdown of how it's coded. And we want to be the first to release it. It certainly will be open source.

Yikes ...not open source until a few months/years have passed i hope. You know these other coders will be years hacking away trying to replicate it but if open source will be ready with their copy and paste buttons in a few days.

Why does everyone think that its a bad thing to copy? It only serves to validate the main chain!! Why do you think i never privatized syscoin? The core should be open and noone copied cause they know they wilk have a tough time keeping up

You can copy a Rembrandt or Picasso but, that doesn't mean the copy IS a Rembrandt or Picasso. The original still holds it's value by virtue of being the real, original thing. Great discussion gentlemen, certainly enlightened me on the subject, thanks...

sidhujag

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1005

Quote from: cryptohunter on September 13, 2016, 11:06:41 AM

Quote from: dzimbeck on September 12, 2016, 08:33:08 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

Yeah that's partly true. It depends on how miners vote. However my assumption is, miners will vote for whatever makes them more money. So if they see low volume and very low price they will deflate. If they see high volume they inflate.

But remember, investors can also watch those global deflation rates correct? So miners aren't doing anything that won't be seen coming a mile away.

Also perhaps if the software itself cast votes automatically by an algorithm then chances are miners will not be able to go against the algorithm just like it's hard to swim against a tide.

Finally, you can guarantee an exact dollar price if you deflate a lot. I'm not recommending it, but in theory that means a group of miners can do it like Tether but self backed and if one backer disappears then someone else can freeze gradually to their comfort level and take their place.

Extreme example: Deflate from 1 billion to 1000 coins, back with 1000 dollars and now it's exactly a dollar a coin. If that backer leaves anyone can take his place.

Also secondary markets for frozen coins is not a design flaw, it's one of the best features. Since frozen coins can be moved with a 3 month time lock, they serve as credit swaps, bonds, and even trustless loans. So we hope to see that happen

As to not having a whitepaper the community specifically asked me not to do this since it would give way too technical of a breakdown of how it's coded. And we want to be the first to release it. It certainly will be open source.

Yikes ...not open source until a few months/years have passed i hope. You know these other coders will be years hacking away trying to replicate it but if open source will be ready with their copy and paste buttons in a few days.

Why does everyone think that its a bad thing to copy? It only serves to validate the main chain!! Why do you think i never privatized syscoin? The core should be open and noone copied cause they know they wilk have a tough time keeping up

cryptohunter

legendary

Activity: 2100

Merit: 1167

MY RED TRUST LEFT BY SCUMBAGS - READ MY SIG

Quote from: dzimbeck on September 12, 2016, 08:33:08 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

Yeah that's partly true. It depends on how miners vote. However my assumption is, miners will vote for whatever makes them more money. So if they see low volume and very low price they will deflate. If they see high volume they inflate.

But remember, investors can also watch those global deflation rates correct? So miners aren't doing anything that won't be seen coming a mile away.

Also perhaps if the software itself cast votes automatically by an algorithm then chances are miners will not be able to go against the algorithm just like it's hard to swim against a tide.

Finally, you can guarantee an exact dollar price if you deflate a lot. I'm not recommending it, but in theory that means a group of miners can do it like Tether but self backed and if one backer disappears then someone else can freeze gradually to their comfort level and take their place.

Extreme example: Deflate from 1 billion to 1000 coins, back with 1000 dollars and now it's exactly a dollar a coin. If that backer leaves anyone can take his place.

Also secondary markets for frozen coins is not a design flaw, it's one of the best features. Since frozen coins can be moved with a 3 month time lock, they serve as credit swaps, bonds, and even trustless loans. So we hope to see that happen

As to not having a whitepaper the community specifically asked me not to do this since it would give way too technical of a breakdown of how it's coded. And we want to be the first to release it. It certainly will be open source.

Yikes ...not open source until a few months/years have passed i hope. You know these other coders will be years hacking away trying to replicate it but if open source will be ready with their copy and paste buttons in a few days.

sidhujag

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1005

Quote from: dzimbeck on September 12, 2016, 08:33:08 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

Yeah that's partly true. It depends on how miners vote. However my assumption is, miners will vote for whatever makes them more money. So if they see low volume and very low price they will deflate. If they see high volume they inflate.

But remember, investors can also watch those global deflation rates correct? So miners aren't doing anything that won't be seen coming a mile away.

Also perhaps if the software itself cast votes automatically by an algorithm then chances are miners will not be able to go against the algorithm just like it's hard to swim against a tide.

Finally, you can guarantee an exact dollar price if you deflate a lot. I'm not recommending it, but in theory that means a group of miners can do it like Tether but self backed and if one backer disappears then someone else can freeze gradually to their comfort level and take their place.

Extreme example: Deflate from 1 billion to 1000 coins, back with 1000 dollars and now it's exactly a dollar a coin. If that backer leaves anyone can take his place.

Also secondary markets for frozen coins is not a design flaw, it's one of the best features. Since frozen coins can be moved with a 3 month time lock, they serve as credit swaps, bonds, and even trustless loans. So we hope to see that happen

As to not having a whitepaper the community specifically asked me not to do this since it would give way too technical of a breakdown of how it's coded. And we want to be the first to release it. It certainly will be open source.

cool, the example of going to $1 a coin... noone will be able to actually sell it for $1 since they are all frozen no... so its really useless to have it priced at that price as 1 billion coins will all want to sell at $1 thus voting to increase supply again and driving price down to an equilibrium which it was at before the deflation happened... i guess idea is stairstepping happens on each cycle or somthing.. it will be an interesting experiment though...

you know i do agree with coins needing deflation.. infact i put it into Syscoin aswell.. since we know how much "work" is being done in sys chain by the creation of tx's that have a version of SYSCOIN_TX_VERSION we can derive the rate at which work happens per block in the consensus code and decrease or increase rate of supply per block... so for fun i burn fees of sys txs if less than 5 sys tx's per block and inflate is more than that since demand is high enough to justify the need for more coins in circulation... although at current network load its really negligible it really might become noticable if we achieve full blocks for evyer block and even more if bitcoin is able to scale on par with VISA level TPS rates on chain which will allow the usage of the deflation/inflation mechanism to be utilitized.... its just another type of idea where demand is affecting supply... ever since I got into crypto I always thought it would make for an ideal currency... and actually later read from John Nash that the Ideal Money would be one where rate targeting is tied to a real GDP type metric that involves some kind of economic health indicator (work in my case being amount of sys tx's in a block). In your case community votes so its dynamic, and not subject to an economic health indicator but an aggregate decision by users.

dzimbeck

legendary

Activity: 2412

Merit: 1044

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

Yeah that's partly true. It depends on how miners vote. However my assumption is, miners will vote for whatever makes them more money. So if they see low volume and very low price they will deflate. If they see high volume they inflate.

But remember, investors can also watch those global deflation rates correct? So miners aren't doing anything that won't be seen coming a mile away.

Also perhaps if the software itself cast votes automatically by an algorithm then chances are miners will not be able to go against the algorithm just like it's hard to swim against a tide.

Finally, you can guarantee an exact dollar price if you deflate a lot. I'm not recommending it, but in theory that means a group of miners can do it like Tether but self backed and if one backer disappears then someone else can freeze gradually to their comfort level and take their place.

Extreme example: Deflate from 1 billion to 1000 coins, back with 1000 dollars and now it's exactly a dollar a coin. If that backer leaves anyone can take his place.

Also secondary markets for frozen coins is not a design flaw, it's one of the best features. Since frozen coins can be moved with a 3 month time lock, they serve as credit swaps, bonds, and even trustless loans. So we hope to see that happen

As to not having a whitepaper the community specifically asked me not to do this since it would give way too technical of a breakdown of how it's coded. And we want to be the first to release it. It certainly will be open source.

3r197

hero member

Activity: 732

Merit: 500

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 06:56:01 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

If the system works I think the game would be set for speculators/investors to have incentive to try and correct the price swings before the network does. So that very well could create volume and stability without the coin network even having to initiate a mandatory adjustment of coin supply. And if it works the price should stay in a steady bullish channel even on some low chart time frames. But yeah like you said, there are typically more than one factor that dictates price creating more risk, but if speculators play it right they could lock themselves in a interesting tactic of maximizing a compounding ROI.

sidhujag

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Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

I don't think monetary policy in central banks is for price discovery of their currency, it is to stimulate economic growth or velocity (volume) of that currency or try to curb growth or slow down velocity, which has an affect of setting the market rate of the instrument, along with other affects. It's not the only factor which sets price thus you cannot guarantee a certain price. This is why I was saying the market will deflect into a volume based market where trading will happen based on projections of volume peaks instead of price... it will be interesting to see if volatility can be avoided this way since there is always a herd affect near peaks and troughs which bring in volatility... so instead of price crashing you might see volume crashing instead and then the question is what would bring about new volume again. Who knows what the actual price will be when these peaks are found. A whitepaper will go along way in describing the phenomenon when expected peaks and troughs are reached and how stability is actually achieved through some mathematical models.

3r197

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Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 05:46:20 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

That's where things are going to get real interesting! Grin

Munti

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Activity: 661

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Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say?

Nothing big about that assumption. It's done everyday in fiat, and it works. David said currencies don't deflate, and that's mostly correct in the long term for several reasons -one of them being inflation target above zero. But they do deflate short term all the time.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume

A secondary market will also be part of this.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting.

We are in the infancy of crypto, so no one can guarantee anything for any coin. BitBay and syscoin can both be dead two years from now for reasons none of use are able to foresee. Or one or both of them can become biger than bitcoin. There is no telling.

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 04:53:41 PM

I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

I def see why you envision a scenario like that. But the whole point of the peg is to provide stability, so there are limits to how fast it will be allowed to move.

sidhujag

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Activity: 2044

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Quote from: dzimbeck on September 12, 2016, 04:00:26 PM

Tether is literally just as simple as saying "we back 100k coins with 100k USD" I assume the increase in supply was due to increase in capital. The problem? When the centralized backer disappears, bye bye Tether and bye bye money.

BitBays peg doesnt need to worry about hard fixed price, just a stable price. If they vote by an algorithm it's still elective. That's enforced on the client side so it's still Democratic and decentralized.

The voting freezes supply that can also be unfrozen. It's strange to me that currency's (only) inflate. Currencies should be able to deflate as well. Coins freeze so that early investors get benefits of being early since they hold their frozen coins to be deployed as volume increases.

Finding a target price might take a long time. But the most important guarantee is survival of a HEALTHY price of the coin. We can guarantee this because if it becomes unhealthy we deflate.

Glad you brought up Tether also. Because we can do what they do but decentralized. Imagine Bill wants to back Bitbay but he's poor. So he and others vote for deflation. Now he decreases supply to 30k coins. He wants to guarantee a price of 30k so he takes 30k in btc and he places a buy wall. Now nobody can break his peg unless they vote to inflate. But Bill will see if the voting becomes unsustainable and remove the wall. Also he won't need 30k to hold it at a dollar anyways because it's a fallacy of proposition to think everyone will sell.

Regardless the price will always be healthy and unlike a hard peg price can grow and is not stuck to the weakening dollar.

you can guarantee price of a coin through deflation/inflation? rather big assumption wouldn't you say? seems to me like a secondary market will be created one which is related to demand or volume... those that froze at the top of the volume will be stuck the longest and those that freeze at the bottom will be ones to benefit the most... wouldn't it become a game of hot potatoes until volume peak is reached and then bag holders hold until a new volume peak is reached if ever?

You cannot guarantee that volume will rise thus it really is just circling back to the same issue...its a cool solution to a general problem but not sure if it will do what you intend but hey lets see it go should be interesting. I can imagine it will deflate pretty quickly as people want higher prices and then wait for new money to come in to take volume higher so old money can get out of their stuck coins.

Munti

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Quote from: jacaf01 on September 12, 2016, 04:21:26 PM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 11:49:00 AM

Quote from: disconnectme on September 12, 2016, 02:17:54 AM

Please any link to the BitBay whitepaper and roadmap for this project, I want to review the paper and see how achievable is the roadmap timeline. I will like to also like to know if there is ICO funding for this project

There is no whitepaper for BitBay, and it's not really needed. Much of the tech is developed already, so you can test it for yourself. You can read a little about the key features in the about section on our site. The only thing that could need a whitepaper is the pegging, and we don't want to give other coins a chance to copy it before we have released it ourself.

Our roadmap is to release templates for buy/sell anything, hire someone/offer to do a job, phyton contracts (write your own smart contract), fork to POS3 to allow cold staking, and pegging. We are not announcing any eta, but David hopes to be done in Q1 2017.

So you are telling me there is no whitepaper neither roadmap and that the decision changed on quick feet.

Correct about the whitepaper. How you conclude that we don't have a roadmap when I just told you our roadmap is a mystery to me. And decision changed on quick feet doesn't make sense at all. David has been delivering exactly what he has promised and a lot more. You are welcome to clarify any misunderstandings before we conclude your posts are FUD and treat them accordingly

jacaf01

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The revolutionary trading ecosystem

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 11:49:00 AM

Quote from: disconnectme on September 12, 2016, 02:17:54 AM

Please any link to the BitBay whitepaper and roadmap for this project, I want to review the paper and see how achievable is the roadmap timeline. I will like to also like to know if there is ICO funding for this project

There is no whitepaper for BitBay, and it's not really needed. Much of the tech is developed already, so you can test it for yourself. You can read a little about the key features in the about section on our site. The only thing that could need a whitepaper is the pegging, and we don't want to give other coins a chance to copy it before we have released it ourself.

Our roadmap is to release templates for buy/sell anything, hire someone/offer to do a job, phyton contracts (write your own smart contract), fork to POS3 to allow cold staking, and pegging. We are not announcing any eta, but David hopes to be done in Q1 2017.

So you are telling me there is no whitepaper neither roadmap and that the decision changed on quick feet.

dzimbeck

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Activity: 2412

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Tether is literally just as simple as saying "we back 100k coins with 100k USD" I assume the increase in supply was due to increase in capital. The problem? When the centralized backer disappears, bye bye Tether and bye bye money.

BitBays peg doesnt need to worry about hard fixed price, just a stable price. If they vote by an algorithm it's still elective. That's enforced on the client side so it's still Democratic and decentralized.

The voting freezes supply that can also be unfrozen. It's strange to me that currency's (only) inflate. Currencies should be able to deflate as well. Coins freeze so that early investors get benefits of being early since they hold their frozen coins to be deployed as volume increases.

Finding a target price might take a long time. But the most important guarantee is survival of a HEALTHY price of the coin. We can guarantee this because if it becomes unhealthy we deflate.

Glad you brought up Tether also. Because we can do what they do but decentralized. Imagine Bill wants to back Bitbay but he's poor. So he and others vote for deflation. Now he decreases supply to 30k coins. He wants to guarantee a price of 30k so he takes 30k in btc and he places a buy wall. Now nobody can break his peg unless they vote to inflate. But Bill will see if the voting becomes unsustainable and remove the wall. Also he won't need 30k to hold it at a dollar anyways because it's a fallacy of proposition to think everyone will sell.

Regardless the price will always be healthy and unlike a hard peg price can grow and is not stuck to the weakening dollar.

RJF19

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Activity: 420

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AKA RJF - Since '14 - On line since '84

Quote from: ptcgroup10009 on September 12, 2016, 10:21:46 AM

Quote from: RJF19 on September 12, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: Munti on September 11, 2016, 07:02:32 PM

Quote from: Wexfgy12 on September 11, 2016, 03:17:35 PM

Hi, possible to get an explanation of what teh "pegging" stuff means? Interested in this project

The blog/forums on the website seem dead..this project is still under active development?

This is very much under active development. You'r right about the site not being very lively. That's because we are mainly communicating on slack. We will use the forum section on site more in the future though. Mostly for help topics because it's nice to not have to read through a ton of pages here to find answers.

The rolling peg, as we call it, is a way to stabilize the value of Bay. We believe one of the obstacles for digital currencies is the volatility in price. Why would Alice and Bob start using a currency that can lose 20-50% of it's value in a day? Doesn't make sense. So we are coming with a solution to that. BitBay will be the first currency in the world with the ability to automatically regulate supply to meet demand at a target price. This is done by freezing/releasing Bay. It's basically the same thing that nations do when they increase or decrease money supply. It's just much easier to do because we don't have to factor in the effect on interest rates, unemployment etc.
The peg is designed to be flexible. Meaning we are not targeting a fixed value of Bay versus USD that never changes. Price will be allowed to move, but the extreme pumps and dumps that we know from crypto will not be possible. Think of the peg as a way to make the price of Bay move similar to bluechip stocks instead of crypto. An added advantage of our peg is what we call UVP, user value protection. The following is a very schematic example of how that works. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of anycoin and it drops 20% you will only have 0.8 bitcoin left if you are forced to sell. In BitBay this will be different after the peg is implemented. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of Bay and it drops 20% that will result in coins being frozen to maintain value. 20% of your coins are now frozen, so you will still only get 0.8 bitcoin if you are forced to sell, But you still have 20% of your Bay. When demand picks up they will be released, and you can sell them.

You say BitBay will be the first. This begs the question, how does "Tether" do it? I have never seen the price of Tether change at all, always 1 USD yet the market cap is growing quite a bit. Just curious. I've been a supporter of Bay since the ICO.

tether works buy "real" bank deposit of dollars matching the available tether usd token .

Ah, I see. So it's sort of a "hybrid" system? Crypto world and real world mix. I would love to see the code that determines the amounts and makes the deposits...

sidhujag

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Activity: 2044

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Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 01:12:03 PM

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 10:05:05 AM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 09:40:40 AM

Quote from: RJF19 on September 12, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: Munti on September 11, 2016, 07:02:32 PM

Quote from: Wexfgy12 on September 11, 2016, 03:17:35 PM

Hi, possible to get an explanation of what teh "pegging" stuff means? Interested in this project

The blog/forums on the website seem dead..this project is still under active development?

This is very much under active development. You'r right about the site not being very lively. That's because we are mainly communicating on slack. We will use the forum section on site more in the future though. Mostly for help topics because it's nice to not have to read through a ton of pages here to find answers.

The rolling peg, as we call it, is a way to stabilize the value of Bay. We believe one of the obstacles for digital currencies is the volatility in price. Why would Alice and Bob start using a currency that can lose 20-50% of it's value in a day? Doesn't make sense. So we are coming with a solution to that. BitBay will be the first currency in the world with the ability to automatically regulate supply to meet demand at a target price. This is done by freezing/releasing Bay. It's basically the same thing that nations do when they increase or decrease money supply. It's just much easier to do because we don't have to factor in the effect on interest rates, unemployment etc.
The peg is designed to be flexible. Meaning we are not targeting a fixed value of Bay versus USD that never changes. Price will be allowed to move, but the extreme pumps and dumps that we know from crypto will not be possible. Think of the peg as a way to make the price of Bay move similar to bluechip stocks instead of crypto. An added advantage of our peg is what we call UVP, user value protection. The following is a very schematic example of how that works. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of anycoin and it drops 20% you will only have 0.8 bitcoin left if you are forced to sell. In BitBay this will be different after the peg is implemented. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of Bay and it drops 20% that will result in coins being frozen to maintain value. 20% of your coins are now frozen, so you will still only get 0.8 bitcoin if you are forced to sell, But you still have 20% of your Bay. When demand picks up they will be released, and you can sell them.

You say BitBay will be the first. This begs the question, how does "Tether" do it? I have never seen the price of Tether change at all, always 1 USD yet the market cap is growing quite a bit. Just curious. I've been a supporter of Bay since the ICO.

I have never heard of Tether, so will have to look into it. That said, I left out an important word; decentralized. BitBay will be able to make the peg decentralized. There are other pegged coins out there, but they rely on some form of centralization.

Is it an endogenous solution? How is price checked by consensus code in a decentralized solution?
Here is vitalik on stable currencies.. id suggest david writes something similar if he thinks he solved the problem better than shellingcoin.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/11/search-stable-cryptocurrency/

Having read that what does the consensus code check to determine demand and thus adjust supply?

I believe tether is a closed system and is more like a market maker not sure though.

Afaik the problem is 2 fold.. determining how far from current price the target price is and actually changing the supply.. getting the current price is easy on paper but presents some problems with hackers when trying to do it in a decentralized way.. in syscoin i read it from an alias thats published which cant be hacked but rely on centralization.. so to create a simple peg of any currency is as simple as creating an alias with peg information and rest of network gets it and cant screw around with the peg.... voting for it presents other problems which is thr act of changing the supply... so im interested to hear how these problems were solved in a decentralized method by david to avoid both of these problems.

Interesting article, but not very relevant for us. We have a very different approach. We will release more info later.

so its not endogenous ? then it relies on external data? cool will look out for the info when it comes out.. sucks theres no code to look at.

Munti

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Activity: 661

Merit: 504

Quote from: sidhujag on September 12, 2016, 10:05:05 AM

Quote from: Munti on September 12, 2016, 09:40:40 AM

Quote from: RJF19 on September 12, 2016, 09:26:35 AM

Quote from: Munti on September 11, 2016, 07:02:32 PM

Quote from: Wexfgy12 on September 11, 2016, 03:17:35 PM

Hi, possible to get an explanation of what teh "pegging" stuff means? Interested in this project

The blog/forums on the website seem dead..this project is still under active development?

This is very much under active development. You'r right about the site not being very lively. That's because we are mainly communicating on slack. We will use the forum section on site more in the future though. Mostly for help topics because it's nice to not have to read through a ton of pages here to find answers.

The rolling peg, as we call it, is a way to stabilize the value of Bay. We believe one of the obstacles for digital currencies is the volatility in price. Why would Alice and Bob start using a currency that can lose 20-50% of it's value in a day? Doesn't make sense. So we are coming with a solution to that. BitBay will be the first currency in the world with the ability to automatically regulate supply to meet demand at a target price. This is done by freezing/releasing Bay. It's basically the same thing that nations do when they increase or decrease money supply. It's just much easier to do because we don't have to factor in the effect on interest rates, unemployment etc.
The peg is designed to be flexible. Meaning we are not targeting a fixed value of Bay versus USD that never changes. Price will be allowed to move, but the extreme pumps and dumps that we know from crypto will not be possible. Think of the peg as a way to make the price of Bay move similar to bluechip stocks instead of crypto. An added advantage of our peg is what we call UVP, user value protection. The following is a very schematic example of how that works. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of anycoin and it drops 20% you will only have 0.8 bitcoin left if you are forced to sell. In BitBay this will be different after the peg is implemented. If you buy 1 bitcoin worth of Bay and it drops 20% that will result in coins being frozen to maintain value. 20% of your coins are now frozen, so you will still only get 0.8 bitcoin if you are forced to sell, But you still have 20% of your Bay. When demand picks up they will be released, and you can sell them.

You say BitBay will be the first. This begs the question, how does "Tether" do it? I have never seen the price of Tether change at all, always 1 USD yet the market cap is growing quite a bit. Just curious. I've been a supporter of Bay since the ICO.

I have never heard of Tether, so will have to look into it. That said, I left out an important word; decentralized. BitBay will be able to make the peg decentralized. There are other pegged coins out there, but they rely on some form of centralization.

Is it an endogenous solution? How is price checked by consensus code in a decentralized solution?
Here is vitalik on stable currencies.. id suggest david writes something similar if he thinks he solved the problem better than shellingcoin.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/11/search-stable-cryptocurrency/

Having read that what does the consensus code check to determine demand and thus adjust supply?

I believe tether is a closed system and is more like a market maker not sure though.

Afaik the problem is 2 fold.. determining how far from current price the target price is and actually changing the supply.. getting the current price is easy on paper but presents some problems with hackers when trying to do it in a decentralized way.. in syscoin i read it from an alias thats published which cant be hacked but rely on centralization.. so to create a simple peg of any currency is as simple as creating an alias with peg information and rest of network gets it and cant screw around with the peg.... voting for it presents other problems which is thr act of changing the supply... so im interested to hear how these problems were solved in a decentralized method by david to avoid both of these problems.

Interesting article, but not very relevant for us. We have a very different approach. We will release more info later.

RJF19

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 250

AKA RJF - Since '14 - On line since '84

Quote from: Piston Honda on September 12, 2016, 09:35:56 AM

dead coin is dead

"dead" coin might be dead but BitBay is doing fine in spite of you...

Topic: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg - page 243. (Read 542115 times)